+wongojack Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 So the best possible outcome for the TS is that we would all start collecting $10 SD cartridges and playing them in a Windows emulator? I think this is the wrong audience. Is there any audience for this? I already have the Atarimax cart. I'm definitely not buying another one. I think the only thing that would get me THAT interested would be some kind of amazing killer app. Skyrim 5200? meh Why wouldn't a developer who was serious about making money and concerned about protecting his/her creation just make the game for Windows and release it independently instead? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDTV1080P Posted September 3, 2017 Author Share Posted September 3, 2017 (edited) So the best possible outcome for the TS is that we would all start collecting $10 SD cartridges and playing them in a Windows emulator? I think this is the wrong audience. Is there any audience for this? I already have the Atarimax cart. I'm definitely not buying another one. I think the only thing that would get me THAT interested would be some kind of amazing killer app. Skyrim 5200? meh Why wouldn't a developer who was serious about making money and concerned about protecting his/her creation just make the game for Windows and release it independently instead? SD media is a lot cheaper then cartridges. Sometimes 8GB sizes can be found as low as $2.50. Releasing the game on SD wafer media results in a lower price for the consumer while at the same time being able to play the game on both a real system and PC. You do not need to purchase another cartridge if you already own a SD version from ATARIMAX. The “Ultimate SD Wafer Drive” by ATARIMAX is also exactly the same as the “Ultimate SD cartridge”, the only difference is the new style label. Since the cartridge operates like a solid-state wafer drive for SD media, the new label is just a more clear meaning of what the cartridge really is. Also with my communications with ATARIMAX, if anyone prefers the new label they can contact ATARIMAX and one can arrange to send their existing Ultimate SD Cartridge in to be relabeled to say “Ultimate SD Wafer Drive”. Edited September 3, 2017 by HDTV1080P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osgeld Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 (edited) what if I want it to say "Ultimate Marketing Wank Drive" I never thought I would develop an irrational hatred of the word wafer but damn you did it Edited September 3, 2017 by Osgeld 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg2600 Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 I'm sorry, why not just sell the roms like Carl Mueller does for Intellivision? Why bother with SD cards at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDTV1080P Posted September 4, 2017 Author Share Posted September 4, 2017 (edited) I'm sorry, why not just sell the roms like Carl Mueller does for Intellivision? Why bother with SD cards at all? ATARIMAX is not interested in selling public domain and commercial rom images (Those ROM images can be downloaded from third party websites and inserted on a SD card). However ATARIMAX does make a fully licensed digital copy of Beef Drop available for free on the included SDHC card for everyone that purchases a Ultimate SD Wafer Drive for the ATARI 5200 system. Edited September 4, 2017 by HDTV1080P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDTV1080P Posted September 4, 2017 Author Share Posted September 4, 2017 With my email communications with Steven J. Tucker at ATARIMAX. It is my understanding that his purpose for the original Ultimate SD Cartridge was for ColecoVision/ADAM game developers and ATARI 5200 game developers to be able to distribute videogames on SD media. The advantage of SD media is that it’s cheaper, faster, and offers much more storage space when compared to actual game cartridges. The option of using copy protection and being able to use the SD media on an emulation program on a real PC was my idea. I mentioned to Steven Tucker that Coleco Industries back in 1983 originally planned on coming out with a high-speed wafer tape drive for Supergames because developing a cartridge that used more than 32KB was too expensive back in the 80’s. Therefore I made the suggest that his product should be called an “Ultimate SD Wafer Drive” instead of an “Ultimate SD Cartridge”. Steven at ATARIMAX agreed to try the new style label on his product, since he always had a vision of his product being used by game developers to distribute games on SD media instead of cartridges. The ColecoVision/ADAM version of the Ultimate SD Wafer Drive is currently being used for people that own the OPCODE Supergame module. ATARIMAX has made some custom labels for both the ColecoVision/ADAM and ATARI 5200 systems with the words “Ultimate SD Wafer Drive”. Again the only difference between the “Ultimate SD Wafer Drive” and the older label called “Ultimate SD Cartridge” is the label. 100% of the electronics are exactly the same. The Ultimate SD Wafer Drive can be purchased on Amazon and EBAY websites. People can also purchase the Ultimate SD Wafer Drive directly from ATARIMAX. Current firmware Supports MMC, SD, and SDHC wafer cards. Both the FAT and FAT32 Filesystem is supported (full long filenames are support also). The FAT filesystem is needed for older SD cards under 2GB in size. The FAT32 filesystem is for native SDHC cards with 2GB to 32GB capacity. ATARIMAX is working on a firmware update for the Ultimate SD Wafer Drive so that the exFAT file system can be used on the latest SDXC cards with a 32GB to 2TB capacity (512GB SDXC cards exist in retail stores in 2017. 1TB and 2TB sizes are planned to be released by SD card manufactories in the future). One day having a ColecoVision/ADAM videogame and ATARI 5200 videogame up to 2TB in size will become a reality if a programmer needs that much space. It should also be mentioned that blank SD media under 2GB in size is no longer being manufactured. Today consumers have a choice between SDHC and SDXC cards. Sometime in future years most likely blank SDHC cards between 2GB to 32GB will one day be going out of production as the demand for consumer storage capacity increases for 4K video camcorders built into Smartphones and other massive storage needs for apps in future generations of tablets and Smartphones. Therefore, ATARIMAX is working on a firmware update for exFAT file support and SDXC card support just in case one day blank SDHC cards between 2GB to 32GB go out of production. The SD card industry keeps increasing in capacity size while at the same time the price per GB keeps falling in price. More information on bank switching 4MB at a time for up to 32GB capacity under the current firmware (The text below in blue are word for word quotes from Steven Tucker at ATARIMAX) “The limit of the current hardware is 4mbit for flat ROM images.” Question: If One installs a 32GB SDHC card into the Ultimate SD Wafer Drive, could a game developer use the entire 32GB of space to make a super large game that is 32GB in size? “Yes, you can go beyond 4mbit by using the onboard CPU to load and save data as needed to and from the card.I'm not aware of any ColecoVision titles that use these functions at the moment, however there are a couple games on the 5200 cartridge that do use it for loading levels and saving high scores.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gozar Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 This whole thread seems to be a scam to charge people $20 more for Atarimax's 5200 SD cart on eBay. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg2600 Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 ATARIMAX is not interested in selling public domain and commercial rom images (Those ROM images can be downloaded from third party websites and inserted on a SD card). However ATARIMAX does make a fully licensed digital copy of Beef Drop available for free on the included SDHC card for everyone that purchases a Ultimate SD Wafer Drive for the ATARI 5200 system. I'm not talking about Atarimax. This Wafer drive is intended to be used by the scant # of game publishers on the 5200, no? My question is why use an SD card for this? If you're not going to use a repurposed/flashed cartridge, just go the Mueller route, and sell the roms for download. I still do not see the reasoning for this entire concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg2600 Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 This whole thread seems to be a scam to charge people $20 more for Atarimax's 5200 SD cart on eBay. Honestly I think the mods should consider it as such... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Allan Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 I was just looking at the Atarimax website and there is no mention of this on the main site or in the forum. How come? Allan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 This whole thread seems to be a scam to charge people $20 more for Atarimax's 5200 SD cart on eBay. But - but - it has a new label. And it uses WAFER techmology. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDTV1080P Posted September 5, 2017 Author Share Posted September 5, 2017 I was just looking at the Atarimax website and there is no mention of this on the main site or in the forum. How come? Allan The reason there is no mention of this new label is because its a very minor change in a existing product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 The reason there is no mention of this new label is because its a very minor change in a existing product. So why is there a thread about it here? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle22 Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 Boom! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wongojack Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 The reason there is no mention of this new label is because its a very minor change in a existing product. Ok, I think that I get it, but you aren't explaining the benefits very well. I was confused by your initial post and most people on this thread are questioning if this has any benefits at all or if AtariMax is even aware of what you are doing. Let's just focus on a small sampling of product benefits that work in your advantage: A flashcart makes it easier to distribute software for a classic console because you don't have to make unique cartridges for each new piece of software. -----This makes sense and is indeed an actual benefit of owning a flashcart. A flashcart can be updated and allow for new features or options to be added -----Security features etc An additional benefit is the ability to add some security to the software on the companion SD card. -----Even if this is easy to defeat it is still potentially more secure than distributing ROMs as flat files A third benefit is simply that this gives the option for some sort of physical distribution. -----Someone could get creative with collectible art and instructions and it would likely sell I think the thing that makes people say WTF is that all of these benefits are already available with the AtariMax carts in their current incarnation. What you need to give people is a reason to pay more for the device when branded as the Wafer Drive. An easy idea would be to create a homebrew that required the security features you describe. That would justify a higher price and demonstrate that the benefits you are describing are actually going to add value for the consumers. You should also take note of some of the things people are mentioning that are NOT benefits of your approach: Added cost -----Why pay more than the devices has been sold for previously Windows only distribution -----There are many other devices that can play ROMs Easy to defeat protection -----Why will this security help at all? No software that uses the described features -----Is there any? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 Disregarding the plethora-WTF for the moment, I do have a serious question: What's the realistic transfer speed from the WTFER back to main RAM ? That transfer can't be faster than 8-bit. Example - one uses PC to generate 1,024 static screens (say, for the [ironic] Skyrim 5200 example mentioned earlier) in target resolution (say, 16 KB with multicolor kernel - assuming 5200's Maria handles DLIs/kernels similarly as A800). But you gotta load them, one by one, as you progress through the world. Exactly how much loading time are we talking here ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 Vladr... that's why SuperREU on c64 has memcopy DMA if I am right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDTV1080P Posted September 7, 2017 Author Share Posted September 7, 2017 (edited) Wongojack, you bring up some many interesting points. The purpose of this thread was to make game developers aware of an ATARIMAX product called Ultimate SD Wafer Drive (also called Ultimate SD Cartridge on the older style label). Some people are not aware of such a product, but most people that stay updated were aware of this product. To be honest I was just trying to create a quick post in the Atari 5200 programming section and was not expecting 1,130 views in such a short period of time. The ColecoVision/ADAM thread on this same topic only received 311 views, which is a big shock to me. There were over 2 million ColecoVisions sold and around 500,000 ADAM computers sold. There were only 1 million ATARI 5200’s sold. Therefore, I am estimating that maybe 25,000 people still use their ColecoVision/ADAM systems for videogames and maybe around 10,000 people use their ATARI 5200’s for videogames (Most people, mostly likely use an emulation program on the PC instead of spending the money to keep a classic 35 year old videogame system running). Also many years ago ATARIMAX told me that that they sale many more ColecoVision/ADAM USB flash cartridges when compared to ATARI 5200 USB flash cartridges. However, on this ATARIAGE website the programming section of the ATARI 5200 system is much more active when compared to the ColecoVision/ADAM programming section. Maybe there are more homebrew games being made for the ATARI 5200 when compared to the ColecoVision/ADAM. ATARIMAX did mention that some of the Atari 5200 programmers have used the Ultimate SD Wafer Drive to save high scores and to do several read and writes to the SD card (Something that ColecoVision/ADAM programmers are not doing yet with SD media when designing videogames). Therefore, the game developing might be more active for the ATARI 5200 system for reasons I do not fully understand. Maybe there is a larger population base using an emulator for the Atari 5200 for Windows PC’s and tablet PC’s when compared to the ColecoVision/ADAM base. This thread is much more active what compared to the ColecoVision/ADAM thread. Today the cheapest way to play videogames for both the ATARI 5200 and ColecoVision/ADAM is to download a free emulation program to run on a desktop PC or portable tablet PC. Also offering free public domain and paid commercial rom images to download to one’s solid state drive, hard drive, or SD card is popular. When and if a game developer wants to make color SD labels, manuals, and boxes for SD wafer media available to collectors is a personal decision. Instead of a consumer paying $50 or $60 for the game cartridge, paying $20 or $25 for the SD wafer media would be cheaper. Blank 32GB SDHC media is now under $10, try finding or making a 32GB game cartridge that cheap (And 8GB SDHC media for around $2.50 is very economical price). ATARIMAX USB cartridges and Ultimate SD Wafer Drives are for those people that want to use a classic 35 year old videogame system instead of a Windows emulation program The Ultimate SD Wafer Drive (older label called Ultimate SD Cartridge), has a list price of $149.95 on the ATARIMAX website, however ATARIMAX currently has a sale running where they are offering it for only $129.95 + $6 shipping. Both the Amazon and EBAY websites now have this exact same sale price of $129.95 for the Ultimate SD Wafer Drive. Those interested in buying in bulk can contact ATARIMAX for a dealer’s price list. However unless one has their own website, there is no real advantage to becoming an authorized ATARIMAX dealer. If one looks at the dealer pricing and compares Amazon and EBAY’s website fees, people that sale those Ultimate SD Wafer drives are looking at a maximum of $5 or $7 profit on a $130 item (One would have to be fairly devoted to classic videogames if Amazon and EBAY end up making more profit then the actual authorized dealer selling the product). ATARIMAX offers an excellent quality item with an amazing lifetime warranty. I do not know any other company that offers a lifetime warranty on game cartridges. The ATARIMAX 128-in-1 USB flash cartridge was scheduled to be going out of production for both the ColecoVision/ADAM and Atari 5200 videogame system when the SD version of the cartridge was released (The USB cartridge only works with up to 32K rom images and also only works with Windows operating system for rom image loading). However, ATARIMAX still offers the 128-in-1 USB flash cartridge for sale because of popular demand. For some reason the 128-in-1 USB flash cartridge still has a $149.99 list price and a current sale price of $129.99. Since the Ultimate SD Wafer Drive is such a much better product, one would think a better price for the 128-in-1 USB flash cartridge would be a sale price of $99.99 instead of a sale price of $129.99. Edited September 7, 2017 by HDTV1080P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDTV1080P Posted September 7, 2017 Author Share Posted September 7, 2017 (edited) Disregarding the plethora-WTF for the moment, I do have a serious question: What's the realistic transfer speed from the WTFER back to main RAM ? That transfer can't be faster than 8-bit. Example - one uses PC to generate 1,024 static screens (say, for the [ironic] Skyrim 5200 example mentioned earlier) in target resolution (say, 16 KB with multicolor kernel - assuming 5200's Maria handles DLIs/kernels similarly as A800). But you gotta load them, one by one, as you progress through the world. Exactly how much loading time are we talking here ? A higher-end 32GB SDHC wafer card from SanDisk has a 300MB per second read speed and a 260MB per second write speed. Much faster than the ATARI 5200 and ColecoVision/ADAM system. However when loading and saving from the 32GB SDHC card to the Ultimate SD Wafer Drive, those fast speeds should be able to be achieved when using the CPU in the Wafer Drive (but only 4MB can be loaded at a time by the Wafer Drive). The problem is the ColecoVision/ADAM and ATARI 5200 videogame system might only have somewhere between 115,000-300,000 baud speed on the cartridge slot which is around 0.3Mbps speed. I would have to look at the spec sheet, but I do not believe the 8 bit videogames over the cartridge slot can travel at 1 million bits per second which is 1Mbps. If someone created a new operating system for the ATARI 5200 and faster chipsets, then these speed issues could be overcome (Same issue with the ColecoVision/ADAM system). Edited September 7, 2017 by HDTV1080P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+remowilliams Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 How is this still going on... ? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 You are aware of that's not a 5200 only forum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 Vladr... that's why SuperREU on c64 has memcopy DMA if I am right? Unfortunately, I have no idea on c64. I suspect that this cartridge is monitoring some memory-mapped registers, which are used to control the bank switching / data transfer (and other) functionality of the cart. If the 115,000 baud number is realistic (honestly don't know), that's about 14 KB/s, which would be actually good enough for many games... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 Unfortunately, I have no idea on c64. I suspect that this cartridge is monitoring some memory-mapped registers, which are used to control the bank switching / data transfer (and other) functionality of the cart. If the 115,000 baud number is realistic (honestly don't know), that's about 14 KB/s, which would be actually good enough for many games... That's a shitty transfer rate. As an example, using a SIDE2 cart which uses a CF card and presents itself to the Atari via the parallel bus, I can transfer files using Sparta DOS X with full file system overhead at around 60kB/sec. If ANTIC DMA is turned off, the transfer rate has hit almost 90kB/sec. Keep in mind, faster rates would be possible if doing raw reads. But that is using the full file system and all DOS overheads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 That's a shitty transfer rate. As an example, using a SIDE2 cart which uses a CF card and presents itself to the Atari via the parallel bus, I can transfer files using Sparta DOS X with full file system overhead at around 60kB/sec. If ANTIC DMA is turned off, the transfer rate has hit almost 90kB/sec. Keep in mind, faster rates would be possible if doing raw reads. But that is using the full file system and all DOS overheads. Thanks for the numbers. If one can transfer full base RAM of an Atari in one second, then transfer speed is not an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDTV1080P Posted September 7, 2017 Author Share Posted September 7, 2017 (edited) So if one is getting 720,000 baud (90kBps which is also 0.09MB a second) over the cartridge slot. That is fairly fast for a 8 bit videogame system. Edited September 7, 2017 by HDTV1080P 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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