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ColecoVision Flashback 40 Game Pack, PC (Digital Download)


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#26 Bill Loguidice ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:01 PM

Are you saying RWB claims ownership of the old Coleco software library? Who did they purchase it from? [I admit it wouldn't be worth a whole lot because of secondary licensing.]

Edit: Look at the Flashback packaging. RWB hadn't claimed any copyright ownership there. What other products were there that has software from their catalog?

 

I'm saying that's who claims to have these properties. We don't know the full path of ownership for these games after Coleco originally had them. I'm sure they have something that legally shows ownership of the properties and games. AtGames and other companies would not make deals with them if there wasn't a reasonable assurance that RWB had what they had. If someone else has claims on said properties and games, it's up to that someone else to go after and/or challenge RWB. Until then, they're the owners of it and that's who you deal with - like AtGames did - to be allowed legal access to them. If that's not good enough for you, then so be it, but that's solely your own issue.



#27 mr_me OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:23 PM

If that were the case, there should be "copyright Coleco Holdings LLC" somewhere on these products. Just as the Atari flashbacks say copyright Atari Interactive, copyright Activision, and the Intellivision Flashbacks say copyright Intellivision Productions.

Edited by mr_me, Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:29 PM.


#28 Bill Loguidice ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:32 PM

If that were the case, there would be "copyright Coleco Holdings LLC" somewhere on these products. Just as the Atari flashbacks say copyright Atari Interactive, copyright Activision, and the Intellivision Flashbacks say copyright Intellivision Productions.

 

If they didn't request it, it wouldn't be put on there. Like my previous example, specific requests about usage were made. From my remembrance of that time, RWB was not that particular or particularly involved in the process outside of granting rights (in contrast to Intellivision Productions at the time, who were very hands-on).

 

So, with all that out of the way, why don't you come right out and say what conclusion you're trying to draw here?



#29 Swami OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:49 PM

 But AT Games or RWB/Coleco would have no more right to the game code than you or I.

 

 


So, with all that out of the way, why don't you come right out and say what conclusion you're trying to draw here?

 

I believe the top statement here was the central thesis of his argument.



#30 carlsson OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:56 PM

So because an agreement, contract or license may not be published for public viewing, it means it isn't valid and copyright legally doesn't belong to anyone? I really hope that holds in court, but I'm afraid it won't.



#31 Bill Loguidice ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:57 PM

 

 

 

I believe the top statement here was the central thesis of his argument.

 

Right, and if that's it, then it's not a good one. We just have to assume that RWB has the rights to both the IP and the games similar to Atari, Activision, etc., until proven otherwise.



#32 mr_me OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:15 PM

 
 
 
I believe the top statement here was the central thesis of his argument.

That's if the software copyrights were never transferred from old Coleco; then the copyrights would be unenforceable. We've been advised otherwise. It's true, a copyright owner has the right to remain anonymous; but that doesn't make sense here. I suppose that if I called Big Five Software and asked about Miner 2049er they would say: oh sure we licensed the trademarks and game concepts to RWB/Coleco. They are easy to get a hold of but then there is the copyright owner of the game code. And copyright owners for other games like Interphase whom I've heard are unresponsive. And the list goes on.

If I wanted to pay money for legal access to these games I would expect something more than "Coleco and Coleco Vision are registered trademarks of Coleco Holdings LLC".

The discussion started when it was suggested that the games on the flashback are legit. And I said that there's no evidence that they are.

So because an agreement, contract or license may not be published for public viewing, it means it isn't valid and copyright legally doesn't belong to anyone? I really hope that holds in court, but I'm afraid it won't.

Nobody is saying that. Copyrights always belong to someone unless they expire into or are released into public domain. If the copyrighted property is not transferred when a public company dissolves than they are unenforceable. The question here was who do they belong to. And that was later answered.

Edited by mr_me, Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:46 PM.


#33 Swami OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:47 PM

 

Right, and if that's it, then it's not a good one. We just have to assume that RWB has the rights to both the IP and the games similar to Atari, Activision, etc., until proven otherwise.

 

 

That's if the software copyrights were never transferred from old Coleco; then the copyrights would be unenforceable. We've been advised otherwise. It's true, a copyright owner has the right to remain anonymous; but that doesn't make sense here. I suppose that if I called Big Five Software and asked about Miner 2049er they would say: oh sure we licensed the trademarks and game concepts to RWB/Coleco. They are easy to get a hold of but then there is the copyright owner of the game code. And copyright owners for other games like Interphase whom I've heard are unresponsive. And the list goes on.

If I wanted to pay money for legal access to these games I would expect something more than "Coleco and Coleco Vision are registered trademarks of Coleco Holdings LLC".

The discussion started when it was suggested that the games on the flashback are legit. And I said that there's no evidence that they are.

Nobody is saying that. Copyrights always belong to someone unless they expire into or are released into public domain. If the copyrighted property is not transferred when a public company dissolves than they are unenforceable.

This is from the Steam website for the ColecoVision Flashback after initial intro and the list of games:

 

"Coleco®, ColecoVision®, and ColecoVision® Flashback® are registered trademarks of Coleco Holdings LLC. All rights reserved. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners."

 

It does seem odd Coleco Holdings would claim trademark ownership for Coleco®, ColecoVision®, and ColecoVision® Flashback®, but not any of the games if they own the trademarks. So my educated guess is they do not own the trademarks for this catalog or they are just odd. I don't have any information about the copyrights or licensing of the trademarks.



#34 mr_me OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:27 PM

That's not unusual even in 1984 Coleco did not own the trademarks (eg Donkey Kong, Zaxxon, Venture, BumpnJump) to the game software code that they did own copyrights.

#35 The Evener OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:38 AM

Going to preface this by saying I'm not a lawyer -- but from this layperson's perspective, there are occasions where the whole issue of copyright/trademark ownership is only protected/asserted through litigation.

 

RWB is a trademark holding company, they are not a hardware/software company. Of course, the various Coleco trademarks only have a "value" due to their proximity/association with the console and games made/licensed by Coleco Industries Inc circa 1982-1984/85. From their past actions as documented at the US Patent and Trademark Office, RWB has used original Coleco Industries Inc products/marks along with associated games as proof of market usage to assert control over the marks. From what I can tell, RWB licenses the use of the marks, but not the game code per se. Without seeing actual contracts, we can't know how RWB and ATgames have decided their approach to the inclusion of the software titles between themselves.



#36 enoofu OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:20 AM

Colevision software copyrights were sold to

Telegames, Inc based in 

Gun Barrel City, TexasUnited States

www.telegames.com before Coleco collasped

 

Anything not included would of possibly went to

Hasbro or today Atari

------------------------------------------

Some peeps believe RWB Coleco is getting the Software IP from a deal with Telegames

 

 




#37 mr_me OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:31 AM

 

Colevision software copyrights were sold to

Telegames, Inc based in 

Gun Barrel City, TexasUnited States

www.telegames.com before Coleco collasped

 

Anything not included would of possibly went to

Hasbro or today Atari

------------------------------------------

Some peeps believe RWB Coleco is getting the Software IP from a deal with Telegames

Where did the idea that Telegames bought Coleco software copyrights come from?  I've read it on some websites but there must be a source to this rumour.  It looks like Telegames did buy up unsold inventory from lots of different cartridge producers, Telegames pretty much had all cartridge producers in their offerings from Activision to Xonox.  Some thought the white label cartridges were manufactured by Telegames but that could be incomplete cartridge stock acquired from the original producers ( http://atariage.com/...abel/?p=2767059).  Telegames did exclusively release Activision's Alcazar and First Star's Boulder Dash for Coleco Vision), however the instructions for Alcazar and Boulder Dash clearly state that the software is copyrighted to Activision and First Star respectively.   In the 1990's Telegames published a Windows CD of thirty Coleco Vision games.  Games were limited to Activision, Bit Corp, and Imagic titles only (except Wing War); it's not clear how these games were licensed.  All six Imagic titles but none of the Activision or Bit Corp titles are on the CV Flashback; neither are any of the exclusive Telegames titles.

 

The other theory is Coleco software rights went to Hasbro.  In 1989 it was reported that Hasbro purchased "most" of Coleco's product lines and planned to manufacture Cabbage Patch Kids ( http://www.nytimes.c...ts.html?mcubz=3).  Other products include board games like Scrabble and Parchesi, and Hasbro previously bought a line of children's furniture and ride-on toys from Coleco.  It's possible Coleco Vision and Adam rights were included in the purchase but I don't know if anyone knows.

 

Another theory is with Infrogrames/Atari (aka Atari Interactive).  In 1995 Hasbro Interactive was established as a subsidiary of Hasbro.  In 1998 Hasbro Interactive purchased "substantially all" of the Atari assets from JTS ( https://www.sec.gov/...9-98-009085.txt).  And in early 2001 Hasbro sold Hasbro Interactive to Infogrames/Atari ( https://www.sec.gov/...000003-0001.txt ) .  Since Hasbro Interactive was a wholly owned company established in 1995 and the Hasbro purchase of Coleco assets happened in 1989, it's possible Coleco Vision assets remained with Hasbro assuming Hasbro had them in 1989.

 

Going to preface this by saying I'm not a lawyer -- but from this layperson's perspective, there are occasions where the whole issue of copyright/trademark ownership is only protected/asserted through litigation.

 

RWB is a trademark holding company, they are not a hardware/software company. Of course, the various Coleco trademarks only have a "value" due to their proximity/association with the console and games made/licensed by Coleco Industries Inc circa 1982-1984/85. From their past actions as documented at the US Patent and Trademark Office, RWB has used original Coleco Industries Inc products/marks along with associated games as proof of market usage to assert control over the marks. From what I can tell, RWB licenses the use of the marks, but not the game code per se. Without seeing actual contracts, we can't know how RWB and ATgames have decided their approach to the inclusion of the software titles between themselves.

Bill L. has previously advised that RWB/Coleco licensed all the games (code and audio/visuals and trademarks) on the CV Flashback to AtGames (not sure if that includes the 12 homebrews).  There are many different rights holders involved here that include Taito, Warner, G-mode, Stern, Atari Interactive, Sega, Universal, Activision, Konami, and many smaller companies and individuals some of which may no longer be active, as well as whoever has former Coleco Industries properties.  It's quite an achievement.  Has RWB/Coleco previously provided any content to a product other than the Coleco trademarks?  Since then, RWB/Coleco are in development of video games based on Rainbow Brite and Robotech licensed brands.


Edited by mr_me, Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:39 AM.


#38 enoofu OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:24 PM

ATgames may have the Sega rights since they have a deal on Classic Sega games with Sega directly

 

 

 

Where did the idea that Telegames bought Coleco software copyrights come from?

Telegames did buy at least some of Colecovisons IP in a 1986 deal  so they could make the Dina, so maybe Bill can clear this up

 

Source:

Vintage Game Consoles: An Inside Look at Apple, Atari, Commodore, Nintendo ...

By Bill Loguidice, Matt Barton

 

 

 

Taito, Warner, G-mode, Stern, Atari Interactive, Sega, Universal, Activision, Konami

You could always ask Taito, Sega, Activision, and Konami since they tend to have legal departments and customer lines; Maybe someone will answer if you do it in a professional letter.



#39 mr_me OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:37 PM

...

Telegames did buy at least some of Colecovisons IP in a 1986 deal  so they could make the Dina, so maybe Bill can clear this up

 

Source:

Vintage Game Consoles: An Inside Look at Apple, Atari, Commodore, Nintendo ...

By Bill Loguidice, Matt Barton

....

This is what the book you referenced says:

"By 1986, Texas-baseed Telegames picked up most of the remaining Coleco and CBS Electronics ... stock, as well as the rights to reproduce a selection of third-party software from companies like Activision, Imagic, and Xonox."

"In that same year, the DINA two-in-one from Taiwan-based Bit Corporation was released, which was rebranded in the US by Telegames as the Personal Arcade"

 

Quoted from "Vintage Game Consoles: An Inside Look at Apple, Atari, Commodore, Nintendo ..."  By Bill Loguidice, Matt Barton

 

It doesn't say TeleGames or Bit Corporation bought any Coleco Vision IP.  It does say TeleGames did license to reproduce some games but not from Coleco.  Anyone was free to make a Coleco Vision clone.  Unlike the Atari 2600 there is no proprietary hardware; and unlike the Intellivision, the emebedded ROM software is relatively easy to reverse engineer and rewrite.  The Dina did not use Coleco's ROM code from the Coleco Vision.



#40 Bill Loguidice ONLINE  

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Posted Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:09 PM

Bill L. has previously advised that RWB/Coleco licensed all the games (code and audio/visuals and trademarks) on the CV Flashback to AtGames (not sure if that includes the 12 homebrews).  There are many different rights holders involved here that include Taito, Warner, G-mode, Stern, Atari Interactive, Sega, Universal, Activision, Konami, and many smaller companies and individuals some of which may no longer be active, as well as whoever has former Coleco Industries properties.  It's quite an achievement.  Has RWB/Coleco previously provided any content to a product other than the Coleco trademarks?  Since then, RWB/Coleco are in development of video games based on Rainbow Brite and Robotech licensed brands.

 

The homebrews were separate deals as usual. Again, it's whoever holds the rights, that's who AtGames gets the license from. Whether RWB had the rights to give, who really knows? Again, they have yet to be challenged after all these years.



#41 Flojomojo OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:11 PM

DINA also played Sega SG1000 games and Ill bet they never licensed anything for that purpose either. Its like the first Retro Duo ever.




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