Jaguar games lack of music

[Tidus79001]

Why is it that most Jaguar games lack in game music? I can't believe that it has anything to do with technical limitations of the system as the Jaguar was more advanced than the SNES and close to PS1 quality. There are a few games that have in game music but they seem to be the exception as opposed to the rule. Were programmers not that experienced or was it just Atari cutting corners due to their being near bankruptcy and it being that most games were produced in house (including licensed games) as opposed to third party?

[BillyHW]

Probably lack of time and money budgeted for the projects.

[Tidus79001]

Sad really as the Jaguar is a very capable system and this always made the games seem incomplete. I can see 2600 games might not have in game music due to it's limitations but any system past the 2600 should havd included in game music where appropriate to the game of course. That Atari considered this acceptable was absurd as it isn't as if they were oblivious that in game music with every system since the NES was the new norm.

[BillyHW]

In the mid-90s, Atari was struggling financially, they needed to ship stuff and sell it before it was really ready just to keep the lights on for another week. Of course, that doesn't help you in the long run, but they knew they didn't even have a long run left.

[Tidus79001]

In the mid-90s, Atari was struggling financially, they needed to ship stuff and sell it before it was really ready just to keep the lights on for another week. Of course, that doesn't help you in the long run, but they knew they didn't even have a long run left.

Trust me I know all too well about Atari's issues during those final years. I have an extensive knowledge of video game history of the Atari years up through the 16-bit era

Edited September 17, 2017 by Tidus79001

[Good_Times]

In the mid-90s, Atari was struggling financially...

This is putting it as nicely as possible, heh.

 

Just one of the many (unfortunate) reasons why most games on the Jag are broken, unfinished messes.

[+save2600]

but, But, BUT... pop in your favorite music CD and trip out to the VLM while playing... another game system.

[doctor_shred]

There are some great Jaguar game soundtracks mind you :

 

Tempest 2K

Super Burnout

Battlemorph CD

Iron Solider 1 & 2 (CD)

Zero 5

Ultra Vortek

Defender 2K

[Stage_1_Boss]

There are some great Jaguar game soundtracks mind you :

 

Tempest 2K

Super Burnout

Battlemorph CD

Iron Solider 1 & 2 (CD)

Zero 5

Ultra Vortek

Defender 2K

I think you forgot Club Drive, it's okay, I forgive you.

[82-T/A]

The Defender 2000 sound track really gets me going. Every once in a while, I'll get in that groove where I'm so awesome I can't be killed, and the music is going so fast... I eventually have to kill myself (in the game) so I can chill out.

 

Edited October 24, 2017 by 82-T/A

[+CyranoJ]

There are some great Jaguar game soundtracks mind you :

 

Superfly DX....

[Austin]

Why is it that most Jaguar games lack in game music?

 

Most Jaguar games do have in-game music. The ones that do not are the minority.

 

The reasoning for some games not having music is varied. Some are technical reasons (DOOM), others were likely deliberate design choices based on other available versions of these games (Theme Park, Flashback, Syndicate, etc).

[Stage_1_Boss]

 

Superfly DX....

That's one I still ain't got for the Jag!

[+save2600]

Pro-Tip:

 

Pressing the '0' button on the keypad will unlock a games' hidden soundtrack... if it has one.

[+SabertoothRetro]

As @Austin said, most Jaguar games do have in-game music. This includes even games he listed as "without" like Syndicate and Theme Park. The reason people think Jaguar games do not have in-game music is because the lack of it in a handful of high profile titles like Cybermorph, Trevor McFur and the Crecent Galaxy, Doom and AVP. These are also some of the most frequently covered in retro gaming blogs and video. Of these, I think AVP was a design choice. Doom was due to technical limitations and Cybermorph and Trevor McFur were rushed out the door to meet launch. Without going through my games and actually checking them off, I would say that 85% of the release library has in-game music.

 

Unfortunately, the echo chamber of misinformation that is the Internet and YouTube wouldn't care either way. They are more than content to repeat that the Jaguar has no good games, the games it does have didn't even have music, and the CD add-on breaks all the time. Rinse, repeat...

Edited October 24, 2017 by atariLBC

[Austin]

As @Austin said, most Jaguar games do have in-game music. This includes even games he listed as "without" like Syndicate and Theme Park. The reason people think Jaguar games do not have in-game music is because the lack of it in a handful of high profile titles like Cybermorph, Trevor McFur and the Crecent Galaxy, Doom and AVP. These are also some of the most frequently covered in retro gaming blogs and video. Of these, I think AVP was a design choice. Doom was due to technical limitations and Cybermorph and Trevor McFur were rushed out the door to meet launch. Without going through my games and actually checking them off, I would say that 85% of the release library has in-game music.

 

Unfortunately, the echo chamber of misinformation that is the Internet and YouTube wouldn't care either way. They are more than content to repeat that the Jaguar has no good games, the games it does have didn't even have music, and the CD add-on breaks all the time. Rinse, repeat...

 

Wow, you're right--Syndicate does have music. Strange. I checked a video of the Amiga one and it had no in-game music and figured the Jag one was the same. I owned it at one point but don't remember it having background music, but perhaps the previous owner of my last cart had disabled the music before I got it.

 

For stuff like Theme Park or Flashback there technically is in-game music but it is situational. I think most that play them at first will get the impression they are soundtrack-less in-game which is why I like to mention them.

 

AVP is an interesting example. Some games across many platforms eschew actual music for ambience/sounds and AVP falls into this category with its fluctuating buzzing and humming in the background. It's not music, but by technical stance it absolutely does have a "soundtrack".

[Tidus79001]

 

Most Jaguar games do have in-game music. The ones that do not are the minority.

 

The reasoning for some games not having music is varied. Some are technical reasons (DOOM), others were likely deliberate design choices based on other available versions of these games (Theme Park, Flashback, Syndicate, etc).

What exactly is the technical reason that Doom couldn't have included music? Less powerful systems like the Super Nintendo and the Sega 32X have music in their versions of Doom and play just fine. Other games on the Jaguar do have music (and I never claimed that there were no Jaguar games with music), so I can't honestly believe that there was something that made it not possible for the Jaguar to have music as well in Doom. To me it seems that this was a lazy programming effort of just porting the game and not taking the time to tweak it properly for the Jaguar's hardware to get everything working. Cutting corners just to get a high profile title on the system and pushed to market was a poor decision. Not having the music in the game ruins the experience as the music helped set the tone and foreboding atmosphere in the game. They shouldn't have bothered to push the game to market if they weren't going to take the time to do it right. Things like this is what gave an amazing system such as the Jaguar a bad reputation that it didn't deserve. I am not bashing the Jaguar and to this day still find it as appreciate it as an Atari video game system and own it as part of my video game collection.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Tidus79001

[+madman]

They shouldn't have bothered to push the game to market if they weren't going to take the time to do it right.

Are you familiar with the majority of the Jag's library?

[Tidus79001]

Are you familiar with the majority of the Jag's library?

I am quite familiar with the Jaguars library.

 

Things like this is what gave an amazing system such as the Jaguar a bad reputation that it didn't deserve.

Just because this was the lazy way that the Tramiel's did business in the final days of Atari doesn't excuse it as being ok.

 

That all being said it still doesn't address this:

What exactly is the technical reason that Doom couldn't have included music? Less powerful systems like the Super Nintendo and the Sega 32X have music in their versions of Doom and play just fine. Other games on the Jaguar do have music (and I never claimed that there were no Jaguar games with music), so I can't honestly believe that there was something that made it not possible for the Jaguar to have music as well in Doom. To me it seems that this was a lazy programming effort of just porting the game and not taking the time to tweak it properly for the Jaguar's hardware to get everything working. Not having the music in the game ruins the experience as the music helped set the tone and foreboding atmosphere in the game.

[Austin]

What exactly is the technical reason that Doom couldn't have included music? Less powerful systems like the Super Nintendo and the Sega 32X have music in their versions of Doom and play just fine. Other games on the Jaguar do have music (and I never claimed that there were no Jaguar games with music), so I can't honestly believe that there was something that made it not possible for the Jaguar to have music as well in Doom. To me it seems that this was a lazy programming effort of just porting the game and not taking the time to tweak it properly for the Jaguar's hardware to get everything working. Cutting corners just to get a high profile title on the system and pushed to market was a poor decision. Not having the music in the game ruins the experience as the music helped set the tone and foreboding atmosphere in the game. They shouldn't have bothered to push the game to market if they weren't going to take the time to do it right. Things like this is what gave an amazing system such as the Jaguar a bad reputation that it didn't deserve. I am not bashing the Jaguar and to this day still find it as appreciate it as an Atari video game system and own it as part of my video game collection.

 

It sounds like you are unfamiliar with the story of DOOM on the Jaguar. I suggest doing your own leg work and using the forum's search function to find more information on it yourself. This topic comes up here at least once or twice a year and as such it's been beaten to death here.

[Austin]

Thought it would be "fun" to look at all of the Atari-era Jaguar releases along with some of the Telegames and Songbird titles to see what actually doesn't have in-game music:

 

Air Cars
Attack of the Mutant Penguins
AVP**
Cannon Fodder**
Cybermorph
DOOM
Fever Pitch Soccer

Flashback**

International Sensible Soccer**
Iron Soldier 2 cart (original CD version had in-game music)
Total Carnage
Trevor McFur
Troy Aikman Football

- AVP and Cannon Fodder feature ambience/sounds as background audio.

- Cannon Fodder, Sensible Soccer, and Flashback are conversions of computer games and operate the same way the original computer versions do. Flashback features brief music clips at key moments, so it's not entirely devoid of in-game music.

 

- SNES version of Fever Pitch also does not feature in-game music, so the Jaguar is not exclusive here.

[+SabertoothRetro]

@Tidus79001 - I think the issue is that you started the thread with false premise:

 

Why is it that most Jaguar games lack in game music?

 

In that respect, Austin's response is appropriate and correct.

 

Regarding the lack of music in Doom, it essentially boils down to how id used the DSP for both the game engine and audio. As you may know, the music files were actually finished and are included between stages but adding them in-game would have required a significant redesign of the game's graphic engine or negatively impact the framerate. It likely boiled down to id getting too far down the road to course correct given the need to ship for Christmas '94. Here's an interview by member LostDragon with Dave Taylor of id who handled the music on Jaguar Doom that explains some of the issue - although he's a bit foggy 23+ years out. http://3do.cdinteractive.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3564

 

It's honestly no great loss. Many players - myself included - prefer the ambient monster noises of the Jaguar version to the in-game music in other ports of the day. Also, the Jaguar port was the best contemporary console version of the game from a graphics/playablity perspective.

[+SabertoothRetro]

@Austin - Thanks for putting that list together. So 13 of the "release" titles, including post Atari/JTS merger Songbird and Telegames releases lack in-game music. That's 19% of titles that lack in-game music by that narrow definition (69 titles).

 

Of course, Telegames didn't include the music for IS2 because it was ported from the CD original and they likely didn't have the resources or inclination to do their own chip tunes for the cart.

[Tidus79001]

What exactly is the technical reason that Doom couldn't have included music? Less powerful systems like the Super Nintendo and the Sega 32X have music in their versions of Doom and play just fine. Other games on the Jaguar do have music (and I never claimed that there were no Jaguar games with music), so I can't honestly believe that there was something that made it not possible for the Jaguar to have music as well in Doom. To me it seems that this was a lazy programming effort of just porting the game and not taking the time to tweak it properly for the Jaguar's hardware to get everything working.

 

http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Atari_Jaguar

The Jaguar version is the only console port that does not feature any music during gameplay. This is because Jaguar's mathematics co-processor DSP chip also handles playing music. As Doom uses the DSP for most of the collision detection and other things, the DSP does not have enough free cycles to process music while running the other game functions.

 

 

To me it seems that this was a lazy programming effort of just porting the game and not taking the time to tweak it properly for the Jaguar's hardware to get everything working. Cutting corners just to get a high profile title on the system and pushed to market was a poor decision.

 

If less powerful systems like the Super Nintendo and the Sega 32X have music in their versions of Doom and play just fine I can't believe that the Jaguar version of Doom couldn't have had music as well. As it was pointed out here in this thread there are several Jaguar titles that have music in game and perform just fine.

 

It is well known that Atari cut corners with the Jaguar hardware to cut costs and to rush it to market and unfortunately as a result the system does sometimes suffer in performance. That being said it is also well know that the development kits for the Jaguar were buggy & incomplete and that developer support from Atari was practically non existent. This combined with Atari being cash strapped as they were and the way that the Tramiel's ran Atari all led to rushed games that were just pushed out to meet a certain budget or date regardless of if the product was truly ready for market. Id software had not turned a great profit with Wolfenstein 3D and they knew that Jaguar didn't have the numbers in terms of consoles sold that they would be able to sell enough copies of Doom which would offset the cost properly tweaking the code in order to get optimal performance from the Jaguar so they shipped it as they did being good enough to play the game but not good enough run that performance allowed music without causing other parts of the game to suffer, they just left the music out during gameplay.

 

I am going to stick with what I have stated as all of the following does support what I have said about the programming efforts as being the case with the lack of music in Doom:

 

 

that old AA thread or Google should confirm some of the following (my memory is a bit rusty) - DSP was used for some graphical stuff, bus bandwidth was maxed out, Carmack said he could've redone it to get more performance if he did it again

 

@JagChris:Once more..with feeling..

 

Jaguar Doom:converted from PC, Carmack admits could of been coded to make better use of Jaguar hardware,

http://3do.cdinteractive.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3564

Lost Dragon: Jaguar Doom often takes 'flak' for not having any in-game music, indeed Sega's Tom Kalinske took a sly dig at it, telling UK Magazine

EDGE, it had NO sound, in an interview (most bizzare, espically since whilst 32X version did have in-game music, it was'nt anything to shout

about). Could you detail just why the Jaguar version only has music on the intermission screens?. Is the hardware (DSP perhaps?) 'maxed-out',

was there simply no room on the cartridge?.I'm sure many of us would love to know the reasons behind it.

 

Dave Taylor (id software): I don’t think it was a room on cartridge thing, because the music itself was stored just as MIDI files, very, very tiny files.

 

I have no idea why it didn’t play during the game. I remember writing the MIDI sequencer and getting it working after learning a lot about

the quirks of MIDI files. It’s clearly been too long. It sounds to me like I must not have gotten the load low enough, so John prolly

killed the music during gameplay and just did it during intermissions where it wouldn’t hurt performance? Maybe he remembers. The Atari

Jaguar was my first experience porting a game to a console, and I found the whole affair pretty traumatic. My guess is that I'm

suffering some psychological block due to an incident probably involving fecal smearing.

 

 

http://emulation-general.wikia.com/wiki/Atari_Jaguar_emulators

The DSP is a 32 bit internal processor and a 16 bit external processor (which is more than enough for sound and input) due to the bad decision of using a 68000 as the system boot processor. The DSP follows the boot processor externally. Had they used a 68020, the DSP would have accessed the bus at 32 bits. The lackluster performance of the Atari Jaguar is NOT due to it's bitness but rather due to it's cheap design and its way overused, bus choking 68000 processor. This processor is only 32 bits internally and 16 bit externally and it ran at half the Jaguar system clock speed. All too many developers used this processor as a main processor when all it should have been used for is to bootstrap the system. The big chips in the Jaguar are more than capable of running with the 68000 halted after boot up. Another issue with the Jaguar design is its unified bus. Without careful coding, it was all too easy to choke system performance due to all 5 processors fighting over each other for bus time. Even though the two RISC processors had private memory, they were hardly large enough to make a difference. Each RISC should have had at least 64 kilobytes of private RAM, at very least externally and the 68000, with its own 64k of RAM would have made a LARGE difference. Instead it was like a cage match at a WWF event, fighting for bus face time. The developer tool kit was piss poor at best and only included a working assembler for the two RISC processors, the included C compiler was a buggy unfinished pile of garbage that could not even properly compile if/then statements, nor could it handle the special case of running the GPU RISC out in main RAM properly. Many homebrewers came up with better ways of dealing with the shortcomings of the system via programming techniques such as GPU main ram workarounds, which allowed the RISC in the GPU to run in main without crashing, and many homebrew developer tool kits such at SMAC/SLN and Raptor made life much easier to developer apps for the black cat. The biggest problem of this console was Atari's carelessness at letting hardware bugs go without correcting them before release. In a nutshell, this system was not ready for market release and was essentially an unfinished buggy product, rushed out the door as a last ditch effort from Atari to remain in the hardware business.

 

 

PROOF OF CONCEPT (this can be done if you take the time to code well within the limitation of the Jaguar hardware). Heretic is very similar to Doom in terms of graphic and gameplay and it includes in game music on the Jaguar and is performing just fine

[+CyranoJ]

PROOF OF CONCEPT (this can be done if you take the time to code well within the limitation of the Jaguar hardware). Heretic is very similar to Doom in terms of graphic and gameplay and it includes in game music on the Jaguar and is performing just fine

 

No, this can be done if you used a looped sample streaming from ROM, and then run your demonstration in an emulator at >2x the speed of the hardware and lie to everyone about how great it is.