Could the Jag Do Decent Ports of NeoGeo and CPS-2

[82-T/A]

Well, when you mentioned Stellar Assault, google spit out this vid for me:

 

 

 

Strange combination, I know... but that game feels to me like a mix between the old game Arctic Fox, and Hi-Octane, except in space... haha...

 

...more so than something like Wing Commander. But I am super impressed at the graphics for what it's running on.

[philipj]

Actually, there's no need for "fundamental shift". All that is needed is that people go and do stuff (which is happening, if slowly).

 

 

Well I've always been a big dreamer... I use to wonder why the Jag couldn't pull stuff that the PS1 or the Sega Saturn would do having conversations in forums here and in others about. The Jag just wasn't built to do all of the things I would see being pulled off on those systems that would come after the Jag release; thus begin my quest to find ways draw strength out of Jag based on what info I get not only here, but in documents I grab here and there with programming being my weakest point. The Jag can't do what it wasn't designed to do thus there where the phrase "fundamental shift" comes from; a "rethinking" of how to pull off what the Jag wasn't designed to do.

 

I, as others in past, have also found out the hard way, that jag's bandwidth sucks for a SW rasterizer. But the HW way (e.g. OP + partially Blitter) is incredibly fast for its time. About 6 months ago, I was experimenting with higher resolutions, and while I didn't [at that time] find the right combination of registers to display full hi-res on my video out, the OP didn't move a muscle with moving 2 framebuffers at a crazy 1536x200 back and forth, all the while:

- displaying transparent bitmaps over more than half of that screenspace (that's a lot of bandwidth to handle)

- Blitter banging on the bus 100% of the time, scanline by scanline (kind of a worst case for OP, really -as they were both at the same time accessing bus) drawing textured road

 

 

 

The Blitter is "blisteringly fast" in the words of a reliable Jag programmer... Just the fact that you were able to pull off such a high resolution using blitter only confirm what I've always known. High res is a goal of mind, but 1536x200 is waaay up there! That's like a panoramic view of things isn't it? My first thought to classic arcade racing game is "TX-1" that used three monitors and was a blast to play at the arcade as a kid. I think this game would be a good port over.

 

 

Edited October 20, 2017 by philipj

[VladR]

The Blitter is "blisteringly fast" in the words of a reliable Jag programmer... Just the fact that you were able to pull off such a high resolution using blitter only confirm what I've always known.

It's funny you would mention that TX-1 game, as that High Res experiment I did was actually on a racing game - see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayy1R1YGHHE

 

The transparent tree bitmaps are done on OP - when I was recording the video, I didn't yet have the mipmaps of trees (so only the largest mipmap is shown, but it's good for testing worst possible scenario when OP has to test every single pixel of over half of the screen), but the road is textured from GPU via Blitter (composed scanline by scanline).

 

68k and DSP were not touched (so plenty of performance left there for input, audio, gameplay and curves&hills).

 

1536x200 is waaay up there!

Well, it's extremely sharp compared to 320x200, that's for sure. You can even see the texturing math artifacts due to such high resolution, which are invisible at 320x200

Can't wait to fix the video register set-up (right now the video out displays just portion of it - around 720 horizontally, but by changing XP offset, I can confirm that the data is being written by Blitter to framebuffer, even if I can't see them on video out - the Blitter does not care what OP displays, obviously), so I can view it fullscreen on my 50" TV.

 

 

 

That's like a panoramic view of things isn't it?

That is actually a phenomenal idea !

 

I'm not very familiar with a modern 3-monitor set-up (I suspect there's 3 HDMI outputs on a gfx card) on a PC (though in past programmed 3D screensavers that span over multiple monitors, even if they had different resolutions - which was a bitch to do under DirectX properly - when one monitor was 640x480 and another 1280x1024), but aren't there some video-out boxes/splitters that can split the video signal horizontally ? Sort-of like when you have splitter boxes that duplicate video out to multiple TVs?

 

Because if there is such a thing, then each monitor would have a screen 1409/3 = 469x200. That would be pretty neat for a jag to be able to do something like that

 

 

 

My first thought to classic arcade racing game is "TX-1" that used three monitors and was a blast to play at the arcade as a kid. I think this game would be a good port over.

That is indeed a great find and looks like a truly worthy upgrade of Pole Position. While a lot of performance on road rendering could be saved by just doing single-color blits, instead of my current expensive per-pixel fixed-point texturing calculations, that game has just way too many run-time scaled sprites for jaguar.

 

Blitter is actually pretty awful in run-time scaling. At first I thought it was because it was reading from slow RAM and writing to slow RAM. But then I did a benchmark where whole source texture was in GPU cache (e.g. 64-bit data path to Blitter), but the performance was only marginally better. It was quite a WTF moment (quite literally, the whole system was just doing sprite scaling, nothing else on the bus), considering how everybody keeps claiming how bloody great jag is at sprite scaling. Maybe OP can scale more (haven't tried yet, though), but then you have a huge problem if you run out of bandwidth - it's not that the framerate drops - the bitch glitches

 

At that resolution, the Blitter would take easily at least one full frame to scale all the sprites (but very probably up to two full frames). So, it would run at around 15-20 fps with all cars, and 30 fps when only your car would be on screen.

[+Stephen]

Well, when you mentioned Stellar Assault, google spit out this vid for me:

 

Just check the first 20 seconds of the vid. Huge polygons, covering half of screen or more, yet framerate looks to be 30-60 fps? WTF ?!?! There's no way, a 23 MHz RISC chip would be able to fill it that fast writing 32 bits per instruction - it's quite literally a full screen!

When I do that on jag on GPU, the framerate takes an instant hit, even without any computations whatsoever - simply due to the bandwidth.

Now, I don't know how the memory is wired on 32X, it is quite possible, it has separate read/write channel from SH-2.

 

But it doesn't actually have to be, as all the SH-2 has to do, per each scanline, is just make a single write for the RLE value.

 

You know how much work the GPU has to do on jag to achieve same result without Blitter ? A loop executing 320/4 = 80 times of the following :

				etlLoop32Bit:
					store	r1, (r0)        ; write 4 pixels at screen pointer  in r0
					addq	#4, r0          ; offset screen pointer for 4 pixels
					subq	#1, r2          ; decrease the loop counter
				jr	PL, etlLoop32Bit        ; loop jump
				nop

80*4 instructions = 320 instructions (one of them is writing to slow RAM, stalling GPU). Instead of just one instruction, on the 32X.

Even if we had more than 4 KB code cache on jag, and could unroll the code above, it would still be 160 instructions (80x store r1,(r0) ; addq #4, r0)

 

That's what I meant by saying:

Because instead of executing 320 instructions per scanline, it just does one bloody instruction (note that on jag, I also have to compute start address of scanline, start xpos, end xpos - prior to rasterizing the scanline, so we compute that too).

 

 

Which means, 32x 3D flatshading engines can actually be brutally ineffective and unoptimized, as the biggest performance roadblock (slow scanline filling) was taken care of by HW

So, it can process full matrices, multiply empty columns and rows, concatenate matrices, and all other abhorrent 3D brutalities, as at 23 MIPS per SH-2 and free rasterizing -> "who gives a fuck, eh 15-20 fps ? Nah, good enough - just look at jag - just ship (sh)it "

 

 

So, it's actually not really fair to compare 32X with jaguar in flatshading engines.

Geez man - the more of these videos I see, the more I wish I had a 32X rather than the Jag.

[+madman]

Geez man - the more of these videos I see, the more I wish I had a 32X rather than the Jag.

It's not too late...

 

There are good games on both platforms, but the Jag by far has more unplayable garbage. Although Motorcross is probably as low as the 32X goes where the Jag has many more titles that bad or worse.

[sd32]

Geez man - the more of these videos I see, the more I wish I had a 32X rather than the Jag.

 

Its arguable which has the better library of games. But i feel the Jaguar has more interesting exclusives. Also, most of the game that appeared on both systems, are better on the Jaguar. And there is of course the homebrew releases, the Jag has tons of stuff, 32X unfortunately has close to nothing (Chilly Willy were are youuuu?).

 

Sucked to have either of them as your primary next-gen game system BITD, but at least the 32X had the awesome Sega Genesis library to fall back into.

Edited October 27, 2017 by sd32

[Austin]

A lot of 32X games haven't aged well or have been made redundant elsewhere. Asides from a select few 32X titles, I think overall the Jaguar library has aged better.

[JaguarVision]

Well this depends. Can the CP24 run Rayman? The vast amount if color, frames of animation, and smooth motion seems like something the CPS3 could do but not the CPS2.

 

Not to mention, if the 3DO can do around CPS3, I don't think it's far fetched to suggest the the Jaguar could do cps2

[+CyranoJ]

I don't think it's far fetched to suggest the the Jaguar could do cps2

 

Learn to code. Try it yourself. Come back and report your findings. We'll wait.

[Trooper Galactus]

Geez man - the more of these videos I see, the more I wish I had a 32X rather than the Jag.

I have the entire 36 game 32X library (including the CD based ones). You really weren't missing anything as most of the games were available on other systems or simply updates of older titles. Unless you're dying to play one of the five or six decent exclusive titles (Knuckles Chaotix, Spider Man: Web of Fire, Kolibri, and, to a lesser extent, Star Wars Arcade and T-Mek), there's really no reason to pursue one beyond just expanding your collection.

[JaguarVision]

I know how to code. I just think it's obvious that if the 3DO can do games that can approach CPS3 the Jaguar should easily be able to do CPS2. I doubt the 2D capabilities between the two are that different.

 

Than you have the fact the 32X is weaker than both and while not able to run CPS2 effectively it's not to shabby in 2D

But again it's weaker than both.

[+CyranoJ]

I know how to code. I just think it's obvious that....

 

We await your results.

 

I think this thread can be closed now until he comes back?

[JaguarVision]

I like how you ignore the fact the Jaguar is around the same 2D prowness as the 3DO and create your own "opinion" the Jaguar can't run CPS2 quality games because you can't code it.

 

Even though you seem to not dispute the fact the 3DO can.

 

Also this isn't my thread. Try taking deep breaths.

[Zerosquare]

Here's the trick: whether the Jaguar can or can't do this or that is absolutely irrelevant if nobody actually does it.

 

You can criticize CJ all you want, the fact remains that he released lots of games on the Jag, whereas those making grandiose claims have released absolutely nothing.

So if you want to prove him wrong, you know what to do.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Zerosquare

[+CyranoJ]

I like how you ignore the fact the Jaguar is around the same 2D prowness as the 3DO and create your own "opinion" the Jaguar can't run CPS2 quality games because you can't code it.

 

Even though you seem to not dispute the fact the 3DO can.

 

Also this isn't my thread. Try taking deep breaths.

Nope. I didn't say any of that. I said go and try it and see for yourself.

[Skippy B. Coyote]

Geez man - the more of these videos I see, the more I wish I had a 32X rather than the Jag.

 

Since you mentioned it, I've been doing a fair bit of back and forth over whether to get a Jag or a 32X over the past few year or so. I knew I'd end up getting one or the other eventually, and for me it really came down to the games I wanted to play. They both have Doom, NBA Jam TE, and Pitfall: The Mayan Adventure (and I suppose Primal Rage, if you're down for spending a small fortune on a Jag CD (which I'm not)) and each have their fair share of exclusives that I'd want to play.

 

The 32X had the edge for a long while with Mortal Kombat II, Virtua Fighter, Virtua Racing Deluxe, and Shadow Squadron but ultimately the Jaguar won out for me with Alien vs. Predator and just the fact that it's an Atari system. Atari + Alien + Predator is a tough combination to beat in my book since I'm a pretty big fan of all three, but your results may vary. I still wish the Jag had a real Mortal Kombat game, but if wishes and buts were candy and nuts then everyone would want an Atari Jaguar.

[Punisher5.0]

I have the entire 36 game 32X library (including the CD based ones). You really weren't missing anything as most of the games were available on other systems or simply updates of older titles. Unless you're dying to play one of the five or six decent exclusive titles (Knuckles Chaotix, Spider Man: Web of Fire, Kolibri, and, to a lesser extent, Star Wars Arcade and T-Mek), there's really no reason to pursue one beyond just expanding your collection.

It's worth it though if you already have a Genesis with a 32X capable flashcart. I ended up going this route on my second go around with the 32X.

[JaguarVision]

Ultra Vortek is a pretty solid MK clone.

 

It's not about whether a programmer can get CPS2 port to run on the Jaguar. I mean it's a hard console to program for. The question is it capable, and unless the 3DO has a super chip that makes it 2x stronger than the Jaguar the Jaguar should be capable of running CPS2 games.

[Zerosquare]

It's not about whether a programmer can get CPS2 port to run on the Jaguar.

What is it about, then? Even if you could prove your assertion is true, what actual difference would it make?

 

It's been twenty years since the commercial death of the Jag. It no longer needs speculation, hype or advocacy against rival systems. Fantasizing about what could-have-been isn't going to accomplish anything. That ship has sailed a long time ago.

 

Instead of fueling those endless debates, enjoy the system for what it is. There are plenty of games to play (both commercial and homebrew) that actually exist.

 

And if you still like to ponder pointless questions, try Zen koans. You may get lucky and reach enlightenment -- something which will never happen in the Jaguar forum.

[+CyranoJ]

I mean it's a hard console to program for.

 

Myth.

 

The correct sentence is: Some programmers are better than others.

 

Perpetuated by people in the 'others' camp, and also by people completely unqualified to judge for themselves.

[walter_J64bit]

Ultra Vortek is a pretty solid MK clone.

 

It's not about whether a programmer can get CPS2 port to run on the Jaguar. I mean it's a hard console to program for. The question is it capable, and unless the 3DO has a super chip that makes it 2x stronger than the Jaguar the Jaguar should be capable of running CPS2 games.

So what happened to DOOM on the D3O? I don't see your "X2 stronger then the Jag" here.

 

The Jag's Doom screen.

Edited November 3, 2017 by walter_J64bit

[+CyranoJ]

So what happened to DOOM on the D3O? I don't see your "X2 stronger then the Jag" here.

 

Probably the "coders were crap", and not "the console is hard to code for" - because only Jaguar developers have that luxury excuse, apparently.

[Bill Loguidice]

It's well known what happened with the 3DO Doom, which is an extreme example of a poor port that didn't need to be poor. From the coder herself: https://kotaku.com/heres-why-the-3do-port-of-doom-sucked-1671138312

 

It's obviously very difficult to find examples of ports that take advantage of a particular system's strengths across multiple systems. You're generally better off comparing the best examples of similar games from a particular system.

[+madman]

We need a stickied "Jaguar theories and speculations thread" to contain all this stuff.

[phoenixdownita]

"contain" ...... I thought it was all about "unleashed", "untapped", "unused" ...... but I think I can live with "contain".