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Why is the importance of ColecoVision almost never brought up historically?


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#51 zzip OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:39 PM

Of course everything is categorized, but not like we're talking about here. Give me an example or two of what you think is equivalent to placing videogame consoles into distinct generations that happens to be widely accepted.


X86 computers, first the 286, 386, 486, and then especially after Intel and AMD switched to named processors after the 486. You need to group them by generation to compare relative power between Intel and AMD counterparts, and keep them all straight.

But I would agree that numbered generations aren't ideal for videogame consoles, they'd be better grouped by their capabilities. But unfortunately, it's the categorization system somebody created, and it's the one everyone who talks consoles understands

#52 zzip OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:45 PM

Yeah, I think along the same lines. You could of course subdivide those music genres into something like http://everynoise.com/(very cool site, check it out), but to most people, I think video games would fall into a few simple categories.
 
Ancient
Like silent movies, they represent the earliest days of the medium, and with few exceptions, are only interesting to historians. I would put 1970s games like Computer Space and Pong-era stuff into this category. Not much fun.
 
Classic
Some Atari, Intellivision, ColecoVision games go here. For most people, NES. Yeah, I put the unremarkable ColecoVision in the came category as Intellivision and Atari. Deal with it. Some of them are still fun. 
 
Retro
I would put SNES and Playstation stuff here, along with modern things with a simpler aesthetic. We no longer worry about technical specs, most things run decently from this point on.
 
Current
Anything that requires more than 2 buttons, 3D acceleration, internet access, or can be downloaded from a digital store. 
 
A kid of today would probably just need 3 categories: Old, Current, and Minecraft.



I would go with something like:

1) plays pong!
2) plays pong on a cartridge, in color!
3) 8-bit golden age
4) 16-bit golden age
5) 3D blob era
6) Online gaming era, near photo realism 3D and minecraft

Edited by zzip, Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:46 PM.


#53 Flojomojo ONLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:56 PM

Where would you put "no more physical media?" I feel like a lot of gamers are hanging onto that. 

 

Another way to slice and dice -- count up the size of the games. 

 

Kilobyte era: anything on a cartridge prior to 16-bit

Megabyte era: SNES, Genesis, even Neo Geo and N64

Hundreds of Megabytes era: CD consoles like Playstation, Saturn (this gets grey, because the actual games are small in most cases, it's just FMV or soundtrack)

Gigabyte era: DVD consoles like PS2, Xbox, Gamecube, Dreamcast, Xbox 360, Wii, Wii U

Tens of GBs era: Blu-Ray consoles like XBone, PS4

 

But then handhelds and mobile and crossovers like Switch don't quite fit. That's because

 

NO ONE CARES



#54 mbd30 OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:15 PM

Where would you put "no more physical media?" I feel like a lot of gamers are hanging onto that. 

 

Another way to slice and dice -- count up the size of the games. 

 

Kilobyte era: anything on a cartridge prior to 16-bit

Megabyte era: SNES, Genesis, even Neo Geo and N64

Hundreds of Megabytes era: CD consoles like Playstation, Saturn (this gets grey, because the actual games are small in most cases, it's just FMV or soundtrack)

Gigabyte era: DVD consoles like PS2, Xbox, Gamecube, Dreamcast, Xbox 360, Wii, Wii U

Tens of GBs era: Blu-Ray consoles like XBone, PS4

 

But then handhelds and mobile and crossovers like Switch don't quite fit. That's because

 

NO ONE CARES

 

The 16-bit era was the Megabit era. 8 megabits sounds more impressive than 1 megabyte.



#55 godslabrat OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:18 PM

But I would agree that numbered generations aren't ideal for videogame consoles, they'd be better grouped by their capabilities. But unfortunately, it's the categorization system somebody created, and it's the one everyone who talks consoles understands

 

I'd argue that no one really understands it.  It's an invention of Wikipedia, where consoles get crammed into nearly 10 generations and it's somehow considered beyond dispute.  It's one of those things that became true because it was on the internet... like TMNT Tournament Fighters being "the worst fighter game ever made" or the Jaguar being "the worst console in history".  



#56 Flojomojo ONLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:19 PM

The 16-bit era was the Megabit era. 8 megabits sounds more impressive than 1 megabyte.

 

I'm glad THAT trend is over.

 

"THE FIRST 8 MEGA CARTRIDGE" <--- stfu



#57 Osgeld OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:20 PM

8 MEGA POWER!



#58 frankodragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:21 PM

Everyone back then was obsessed with getting those fugly Cabbage Patch Dolls instead of ColecoVision.   So instead some poor kid who wanted a ColecoVision, instead gets a doll that looks like its been punched in the mouth by Waldorf the muppet.



#59 remowilliams OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:23 PM

It's one of those things that became true because it was on the internet [...] the Jaguar being "the worst console in history".  

 

That happened before the internet.  I was there.

 

 

 

:lol:



#60 save2600 OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:26 PM

Everyone back then was obsessed with getting those fugly Cabbage Patch Dolls instead of ColecoVision.  So instead some poor kid who wants a ColecoVision instead, gets a doll that looks like its been punched in the mouth by Waldorf the muppet.


That's exactly how my uncle ended up with a CV system BITD. His daughter had to have the doll that Christmas and purchasing a CV was the only way he could get it at the time. They were literally bundled together - what a racket! So when we'd visit, played the system of course. Funny though... even he ended up purchasing Expansion #1 for it, so we could bring our VCS carts over. Remember playing 2600 Pole Position, Combat, Ms. Pac-Man, Venture, Mousetrap, SuperChallenge Football and Super ChallengeBaseball as much as or more than the CV stuff he had at the time. :lol:

#61 mbd30 OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:29 PM

The Jaguar isn't the worst console ever, but just the console with the most obnoxious advertising. DO THE MATH!



#62 Keatah OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:53 PM

Problem is the definition will change with time. However there will be some landmarks that never change.

 

The VCS will always be in the 1st generation of cartridge systems. Other systems like a 5th gen Nintendo console, or 4th gen Sega console will eventually get pushed down into the 1st gen category. Otherwise, like I said before, each console will have to have it's own number and it's gonna get unwieldy pretty quick.

 

Generations are a dynamic sliding and re-sizable window.

 

---

 

Generations.. Shmenerations.. It doesn't really matter. For all I knew at the time the VCS was 1st Generation, Intellivision 2nd Generation, and Colecovision 3rd Generation. And I acquired them in that order, so 1st, 2nd, 3rd, see?

The 5200 didn't have a "generation" because it was a castrated 400/800computer. And all 6502 and 8-bit computers were 1st generation. 2nd generation computers were built on the 68000. And all 3rd generation computers had intel architecture in them. Not counting the Odyssey2 which was clearly a 1st generation machine.

The 486 was like a 4th generation iteration in the 3rd generation lineup of intel rigs. And the Pentium, despite being the 5th generation intel gig, was clearly a 1st generation SuperScaler Processor. Let us not forget the 1st and second generations of the PentiumPro, clearly a 7th generation processor in ordinary time, but 3rd in the Pentium scheme, and 1st for out-of-order execution.

Fast-forward to today with intel 8th gen integrated graphics in 6th, 7th, and 8th gen processors. Out of something like 25 distinct IGP units since Intel Extreme Graphics 1st and 2nd gen which are now considered lumped into 1st gen.

Soooo... you can see how that is all nonsensical. It can be worded and written to sound authoritative (I didn't bother) and made to fool anyone. But it really means nothing.

The term "generations" is a whipping boy for marketers and lackeys when they have to say something.



#63 Keatah OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:57 PM

The Jaguar isn't the worst console ever, but just the console with the most obnoxious advertising. DO THE MATH!

 

Did "Do The Math" come prior to or after Sega's "Blast Processing" ?



#64 Flojomojo ONLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:04 PM

After. And I think Jaguar's reputation suffers a lot because everyone expected a giant leap like we got from 8-bit -> 16-bit, or SNES -> PlayStation.

Expectation minus reality equals disappointment.

If Atari could exist as a sleeper hit like NeoGeo Pocket Color, they would still be out of business but they probably wouldn't be as much of a laughingstock.

#65 spacecadet OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:34 PM

But unfortunately, it's the categorization system somebody created, and it's the one everyone who talks consoles understands

 

I think that basically no one understands it... as evidenced by the fact that every thread anywhere that breaks out about it ends up just like this one. Even on modern gaming forums where it's a bunch of 12 year olds talking, they have basically the same debate, just in the language of 12 year olds. "no way the switch is 8th gen you dumbazz!" is pre-teen speak for "console generations are arbitrary and meaningless."

 

I don't think it's possible to understand it because it's the result of some guy (probably) somewhere making a list and then posting it, a few of his friends nodding in agreement because they can't come up with anything better and then a bunch of people who don't know anything about it taking that list at face value. I mean that's more or less how even Wikipedia operates. It's not authoritative; it's supposed to require a source but look at its articles for console generations, none of them have sources and they even have messages at the top saying that sources need to be added. The problem is, articles on Wikipedia stay up *forever* with that message, until people just ignore the message and consider the article gospel. If it's been up that long, it must be true, right? You can't even really edit bad info out a lot of the time because it'll just get reverted. But stuff that's debatable really isn't supposed to be there anyway.

 

I know that I personally am not going to convince anyone who talks about console generations in this way to stop doing it, but the way we refer to and group things does change over time, so maybe eventually it'll morph into something more meaningful. If nothing else, we're going to just keep adding console generations, so at some point I feel like people will no longer say it's the "24th generation" and will instead start grouping stuff by some important differentiating factor.



#66 mbd30 OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:06 PM

After. And I think Jaguar's reputation suffers a lot because everyone expected a giant leap like we got from 8-bit -> 16-bit, or SNES -> PlayStation.

Expectation minus reality equals disappointment.

If Atari could exist as a sleeper hit like NeoGeo Pocket Color, they would still be out of business but they probably wouldn't be as much of a laughingstock.

 

 

If the games were that impressive then they could have just shown them rather than blustering about the 64 bits. But they didn't look that much better.



#67 Osgeld OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:20 PM

 

Did "Do The Math" come prior to or after Sega's "Blast Processing" ?

 

after

 

the SEGA! tude came in with Sonic, so sometime after 91 which is before the Jag, how much more? I dunno DO THE MATH!



#68 Keatah OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:31 PM

The term "generations" is supposed to draw a line in time. When there become too many lines, they get consolidated. Who cares about a 30th gen vs a 31st gen console? With that much (illustrated) evolution behind them, both are going to be superior to anything from the like the 3rd gen. Adding to the problem is that there is different technical criteria.

 

1st can mean tape-load

2nd might be solid state cartridge

3rd be floppy

4th is CD-ROM

5th is digital download

 

Compounding the problem is the term is sliding and variable in size depending on that criteria.

 

All 8-bit rigs could be 1st.

Then all 16-bit rigs 2nd.

32-bit are 3rd.

And 64-bit are 4th.

 

Clearly there is going to be overlap and different positioning.

 

The language of generational categories is well understood. Problem is everyone is writing their own story.



#69 Black_Tiger OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:00 AM

The <32-bit pixelart period will always have generations and stand apart from other periods. People will still debate about arbitrary rules so they can pit hardware and libraries against one another like this.

But there is a clear line in the sand between the last console generation which required pixelart and the first that could just use digitize assets as-is and favored 3D or 2D.

#70 HoshiChiri OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:20 AM

 

NO ONE CARES

 

NOPE! :P

 

I personally go pre crash -> post crash -> CDs -> downloads. Basically pair off the Wikipedia defined gens. I imagine 'digital only' is next.

 

Alternatively, you can go game switch -> RF unit -> composite -> Component -> HDMI, but that's trickier since most systems run more than one of those.



#71 Flojomojo ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:25 AM

9-volt battery
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Wireless charging through metal coils
Wireless charging through the air
Unlimited power THROUGH YOUR MIND

#72 Osgeld OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:27 AM

Unlimited  MEGA power

 

fixed that for you



#73 zzip OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:55 AM

I think that basically no one understands it... as evidenced by the fact that every thread anywhere that breaks out about it ends up just like this one. Even on modern gaming forums where it's a bunch of 12 year olds talking, they have basically the same debate, just in the language of 12 year olds. "no way the switch is 8th gen you dumbazz!" is pre-teen speak for "console generations are arbitrary and meaningless."
 
I don't think it's possible to understand it because it's the result of some guy (probably) somewhere making a list and then posting it, a few of his friends nodding in agreement because they can't come up with anything better and then a bunch of people who don't know anything about it taking that list at face value. I mean that's more or less how even Wikipedia operates. It's not authoritative; it's supposed to require a source but look at its articles for console generations, none of them have sources and they even have messages at the top saying that sources need to be added. The problem is, articles on Wikipedia stay up *forever* with that message, until people just ignore the message and consider the article gospel. If it's been up that long, it must be true, right? You can't even really edit bad info out a lot of the time because it'll just get reverted. But stuff that's debatable really isn't supposed to be there anyway.


I browse a couple videogame sites, people really do understand the generation system and reference it frequently. And in some cases, it makes sense. The hardware makers release consoles within a year of each other now, and they have similar specs. In the older days, these generations weren't so organized which makes their categorization harder.

Even when Wikipedia has sources, they prefer articles in the press from certain media outlets over others. Of course the press often prints inaccuracies, and sometimes outright BS, and that stuff still gets taken as truth on Wikipedia. I remember a case where an author tried to correct his own Wikipedia page because it was inaccurate. But his edit kept getting reverted because he is not considered a valid source on himself. He falls under "original research", instead Wikipedia sourced inaccurate articles on this person.
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#74 godslabrat OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:20 AM

I browse a couple videogame sites, people really do understand the generation system and reference it frequently. And in some cases, it makes sense. The hardware makers release consoles within a year of each other now, and they have similar specs. In the older days, these generations weren't so organized which makes their categorization harder.

Even when Wikipedia has sources, they prefer articles in the press from certain media outlets over others. Of course the press often prints inaccuracies, and sometimes outright BS, and that stuff still gets taken as truth on Wikipedia. I remember a case where an author tried to correct his own Wikipedia page because it was inaccurate. But his edit kept getting reverted because he is not considered a valid source on himself. He falls under "original research", instead Wikipedia sourced inaccurate articles on this person.

 

But that goes back to the point I was trying to make... the generation system is artificial, and exists only because wIkipedia says it's true.  Saying people have a solid understanding of it is like saying people have a solid understanding of Phrenology... it might be a detailed and widely-distributed theory, on the minds of every media outlet, but that doesn't change the truth that it's bupkiss at its foundation.



#75 Schizophretard ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:25 AM

Without the ColecoVision we wouldn't still be debating about console generations.






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