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Can the STE's PCM sound chip play Amiga modules?

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#76 zzip OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 8, 2017 1:46 PM

Exactly!
 
Because Xerox Smarttalk was to 'complicated' so people settle on dumbing down computers to level of typewriters!
 

 
Coz of this I wrote: "Ultimate FAIL are STUPID people...".


It was more niche. People only learned on what they used at the office, and that was increasing PC because companies trusted IBM more than alternatives. So you got people learning on DOS applications.

You have to understand that at least 80% of people are not technical. Not because they are stupid, but because they have other interests, and don't want to waste their time learning other things just because someone else thinks its better. They simply want to get their work done so they can do something else. Nothing more

#77 calimero OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 9, 2017 12:55 PM

Clarification:
When I say 'stupid' I mean: people can not foresee benefit in long run but they are satisfied with meeting current needs. I would say that 80% of people function in this way. (this is also characteristic of animals, they does not have ability to foresee future, but people are generally lazy - this is what I call 'stupid').

 

You have to understand that at least 80% of people are not technical. Not because they are stupid, but because they have other interests, and don't want to waste their time learning other things just because someone else thinks its better. They simply want to get their work done so they can do something else. Nothing more

 

hm... "they do not want to learn something new, they want to get job done and to have free time" ... this is how stupid people operate:

 

they use computer as typewriter machine (e.g. 90% of clerks have, for example: 'contract' - a Word document that they use as template and they change only names, addresses... each time! Instead of spending some time to learn how to use database (e.g. Papyrus*) and as consequence to SAVE their time).

 

*I mention Papyrus since it is utterly super easy to automate 90% of clerks-like work (in contrast to M$ Office Word and Access).

 

 

punchline: Majority of people tend to use "easy way" (shortcuts) neglecting consequence in long run of their choices.


Edited by calimero, Thu Nov 9, 2017 12:57 PM.


#78 atarian63 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 9, 2017 8:02 PM

So the ST had a head start, so what? The Amiga, the BETTER machine, won out in the end. Ultimately, it was the PC that killed both of them, and the Falcon was a latecomer that drowned in the PC ocean.

not really. Atari outlasted Commodote



#79 atarian63 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 9, 2017 8:05 PM

 

What irks me is that because the ST came first and made headway into the market in the mid-to-late 1980s, the Amiga got saddled with a whole bunch of sub-par ST ports of games when it was capable of so much more. It's a bit like forcing a university professor to take janitorial jobs. I bet my Amiga-hating friend loved the fact that the Amiga was being "kept on its knees" and fed scraps from the dinner table whilst the ST reigned supreme and dined finely, and was more than a bit worried that Shadow of the Beast broke the Amiga's chains and allowed it to overthrow the ST.

 

Maybe a bit over-dramatic, and it is really simply down to lazy and ignorant programmers, but that's how I feel about the situation, sometimes. AMIGA RULES! A8 RULES! End of.

mope, I love the ST and how it stomped on AMiga for years, Starglider, so good on ST so bad on the Amoeba



#80 atarian63 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 9, 2017 8:05 PM

Maybe my Amiga zealousness is showing, but Jay Miner's hardware is my personal preference. ;)

Then you owned an Atari 800? not c64?



#81 atarian63 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 9, 2017 8:07 PM

 

How exactly did the Amiga fail commercially? Last I heard it sold millions in Europe. Jay's team designed the custom chipset that was revolutionary for its time, it doesn't matter what the units they went in were, they still all performed and SOLD very well, especially in Europe and outside North America. Any problems with the Amiga sales can be put down to the idiotic, incompetent management at Commodore, the hardware was not to blame.

 

The C64 was only 8-bit and had a questionable colour palette, Commodore wanted an upgraded computer at 16-bit, and they got it in Amiga.

Stolen from Atari,was to have been a game console.



#82 atarian63 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 9, 2017 8:13 PM

 

That's what happens when you try to sell the world's first truly multimedia computer, when the term hasn't even been coined yet.

 

 

 

 

Where it made history. :D

 

 

 

 

Seriously? The man was a ruthless cutthroat businessman, only interested in profit rather than progressing technology. As he said himself, "I don't believe in compromises, I believe in winning." His business clout and skill helped make the C64 the best-selling home computer in history. Good for him. But how did the Atari ST sales do under him?

Very well with Jack,,destroyed Amiga the 1st few years, we sold both at my retail store, in the early years took quite a few return on a1000,sold them an ST, they were much happier.



#83 atarian63 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 9, 2017 8:16 PM

I've been told Defender of the Crown was far superior on the Amiga

it was, thats when the market EA and others expected Amiga to be the winner early on... it wasnt Atari ST was and that soon changed the software platforrm being developed for a 1st released Atari ST for several years.



#84 Foebane OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:35 AM

Then you owned an Atari 800? not c64?

 

A 600XL, then 800XL. No C64.



#85 Lynxpro OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Dec 4, 2017 9:09 PM

 

 

The ST was designed as a general purpose computer and the Amiga as a multimedia machine.  It is no surprise that the machine designed with graphics and sound as the main focus would be better at graphics and sound than the machine that was not.  

 

If graphics and sound are your focus, then the Amiga is your machine.  Enjoy it.

 

Actually, the Amiga was first meant to be a console game system. One that Atari Inc was going to market and Atari Coin was going to use the chipset in their arcade machines. But Commodore and David Morse screwed that all up.

 

It's really a shame Atari Corp couldn't get Atari Inc's AMY sound chip to work in the ST. Amiga with its DMA audio wouldn't have stood a chance against that 64-voice monster.



#86 Lynxpro OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Dec 4, 2017 9:11 PM

When I went to college with my STe, I found that my roommate had an Amiga. You can probably guess what happened next, right?

yup, we hooked them together via RS232 and played Stunt Car Racer head-to-head! :)

 

Besides it and Falcon, what other games could do that via null modem cable...not to mention operate multi-platform?


Edited by Lynxpro, Mon Dec 4, 2017 9:11 PM.


#87 ParanoidLittleMan OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Dec 5, 2017 2:13 AM

I looked last 2 pages of this thread (what I did not follow), and I need to say some things:

Calimero is typical one, who sees things one-sided, who will fight for his right with lot of arguments. Actually, that would be not rare case of person, I would say that majority is such. The difference is only in level of biasment, how much (time) someone will to spend in useless (99% of is it) debates ...

And all it is because he does not like PC, does not like Micro$oft . And because mentioned 2 dominate computer market since about 1990 until now, that must be because they were unfair, used some bad things in war called competition on market. I don't like MS, I'm pretty much neutral about IBM - actually, I know so little about IBM that I simply can not have some opinion about that company overall. I know only things related with so called "PC" , Fact is that PC is early computer design from about 1980 . Was it named PC right then ? I'm not sure - and saying it just because in begin it was mostly bought by firms, for work. It was just too expensive for average home user.

Additionally, it was text only graphic, with optional real graphic card, what was another expensive part. While on market real home computers (basically means 100% same as PC) appeared, with very fast progress considering speed, graphics, user interface etc.  IBM was slow, and still way too expensive.

So, the question is: why the Hell IBM's conceptual design prevailed and took over domination some 10 years after it's launch ?

I would say that main reason was that IBM did not manufacture it :)  This may sound as sarcasm, and we know that actually IBM manufactured some smaller quantity, or at least it was sold with name of ... It stopped totally some years ago, as was later with IBM hard drives, notebooks . 

On the other side, what other microcomputer (let's use this term) manufacturers did, including 'so great' Apple - they made non-compatible new models one after other. Why ? One of the reasons is that it is cheaper to do so. Other would be that they did not plan ahead enough.

And that leads us to very important factor: SW compatibility.  It influenced even CPU designs, before 1980. Vectors are there because SW compatibility. Jumptables in ROM are because of that. Atari was aware about it, so ST was designed to be upgradeable, and old SW still work on it - well partially only. This is very complex thing, so not going in details.

No GUI with PC ?  That's what Calimero says - and I must say he has no clue :-D  DR launched GUI OS for Atari and for  PC in approx. same time .You can see how TOS is similar to (DR) DOS in many things.

In that time, there was lot of expansions for PC, manufactured by whoever wanted it. And more important, you could make PC clone too legally. Only thing you needed to make, buy self was BIOS.

The goal was to make compatible machine, where SW will work.  I say it 'boldly' because I'm sure that it was the key in success. Probably nobody planned it, it just happened so. 100 manufacturers of same architecture, and same SW is good for any of it ? That's just sound so good for people disappointed with fact that their beloved Apple again launched non-compatible machine.

Of course, companies learned. Apple made Macintosh with compatibility in mind - as did Atari, Commodore, etc.  And PC clone manufacturers learned too: they started with custom chips, chipsets - ant that won the war eventually.

May be to be continued :)


Edited by ParanoidLittleMan, Tue Dec 5, 2017 2:17 AM.


#88 calimero OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Dec 6, 2017 10:53 AM

 

Actually, the Amiga was first meant to be a console game system. One that Atari Inc was going to market and Atari Coin was going to use the chipset in their arcade machines. But Commodore and David Morse screwed that all up.

 

It's really a shame Atari Corp couldn't get Atari Inc's AMY sound chip to work in the ST. Amiga with its DMA audio wouldn't have stood a chance against that 64-voice monster.

 

 

When Jack Tramiel took over Atari Inc. it was clear that he have only one goal: to bring RBP (aka ST) to market. Everything else was not important.

 

So Amiga would have no future with Jack Tramiels Atari.

 

Dave Morse have no option but to sold Amiga to Commodore (since Apple, HP, Sony, SiliconGraphics... all turn down Amiga)!



#89 calimero OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Dec 6, 2017 11:24 AM

I looked last 2 pages of this thread (what I did not follow), and I need to say some things:

Calimero is typical one, who sees things one-sided, who will fight for his right with lot of arguments. Actually, that would be not rare case of person, I would say that majority is such. The difference is only in level of biasment, how much (time) someone will to spend in useless (99% of is it) debates ...

And all it is because he does not like PC, does not like Micro$oft . 

 

It is not question if I like or do not like Microsoft. I have a reason.

It is matter of honor! and what kind of man you want to be: I am sure that I do not want to be slimy, egocentric psychopath like Bill Gates.

 

Second, it is not my opinion if Microsoft and Bill Gates use tactics to cripple competition for their own benefit (although it is normal in capitalistic society), it is very well documented! Some evidences  like Microsoft ties with Digital Research and CP/M, were paid by Microsoft to be destroyed (search for: Caldera vs Microsoft http://www.roughlydr...-of-os-1990s/)!This bring even more suspicious at Gary Kildall death story. I hope that one day we will see truth.

 

Douglas Adams best describe Bill Gates and Microsoft:

 

"The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armour to lead all his customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who by peddling second-hand, second-rate technology, led them all into it in the first place."



#90 Foebane OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Dec 8, 2017 3:20 AM

Let me tell you a little story about one way in which the ST sucks:

 

I had my STFM back in 1990, around Autumn, and one day I put it on and was horrified to hear a constant beep, like that annoying blippy little beep that occurs every time a key is pressed, but this time it was a constant bleep and I couldn't do a thing, like use the keyboard or mouse, and the ST had locked up. So I disconnected everything, including the mouse and joystick, and proceeded to put the ST in a suitcase, wrapped in newspaper and took it to the computer shop.

 

Guess what? It worked perfectly. I was confused and annoyed that I'd taken this thing on the bus to town and had to go back with no explanation as to why it suddenly started to work again, but I took it back home, and yes, it did work again.

 

Guess what the cause of the lock-up was. I'll give the answer at the end of today.


Edited by Foebane, Fri Dec 8, 2017 3:27 AM.


#91 Foebane OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Dec 8, 2017 3:21 AM

Calimero, you sound annoying, like an Amiga demo named after you that is also annoying.

 

EDIT: Enjoy! (Or not, I really don't care)

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=ORhSzwvwhfA


Edited by Foebane, Fri Dec 8, 2017 3:29 AM.


#92 Foebane OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Dec 8, 2017 3:24 AM

 

 

When Jack Tramiel took over Atari Inc. it was clear that he have only one goal: to bring RBP (aka ST) to market. Everything else was not important.

 

So Amiga would have no future with Jack Tramiels Atari.

 

Dave Morse have no option but to sold Amiga to Commodore (since Apple, HP, Sony, SiliconGraphics... all turn down Amiga)!

 

You mean Tramiel wanted Amiga so badly so he could KILL IT STONE DEAD??? WHAT a BASTARD DOUCHEBAG!

 

What is RBP again?

 

So, here's the real reasons why those companies turned down Amiga:

Apple sucks, it's only ever been about Jobs' closed-system vision, nothing else matters.

HP only ever do printers anyway.

Sony are Japanese and do their own thing.

SiliconGraphics are a bit high-end with their stuff, to be honest.



#93 Foebane OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Dec 8, 2017 3:39 AM

I've noticed that there seems to be two people in particular across the 8- and 16-bit divide, and who happened to head teams who developed competing systems, namely Jay Miner and Jack Tramiel.

 

One was a mild-mannered man with a cute dog who developed pacemakers when he wasn't developing robust, polished early computer hardware and who suffered from kidney problems.

The other was a man who suffered horrifically in his younger years, and as a result grew a ruthless streak and a zeal to promote cheap computer hardware and undercut the competition.

 

One created the Atari 400/800/XL and later on masterminded the Amiga development, both computers which I admire and appreciate to this day.

The other spearheaded the development of the Commodore 64 and later Atari ST, two computers which initially undercut the Atari 8-Bit AND the Amiga (to my annoyance) who won with the former but ultimately lost with the latter.

 

There is the old axiom "Nice Guys Finish Last", but to be frank, I know which one I'd rather admire as an icon of computing. I guess it could so easily have gone the other way.



#94 calimero OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Dec 8, 2017 4:32 AM

 

You mean Tramiel wanted Amiga so badly so he could KILL IT STONE DEAD??? WHAT a BASTARD DOUCHEBAG!

 

What is RBP again?

 

So, here's the real reasons why those companies turned down Amiga:

Apple sucks, it's only ever been about Jobs' closed-system vision, nothing else matters.

HP only ever do printers anyway.

Sony are Japanese and do their own thing.

SiliconGraphics are a bit high-end with their stuff, to be honest.

 

No, Jack Tramiel did not wanted Amiga.

 

It is a myth (more precise: LIE) that mostly R. J. Mical and Dave Needle keep repeating for decades! It is a lie that Amiga community without hesitation accept and in last movie about Amiga (Viva Amiga) we can see picture of Jack Tramiel in FAKE article that Viva Amiga producers made with title: "Amiga reveices loan from Tramiel" (which is LIE since Atari Inc. (Warner Communication owned Atari) gave Amiga Corp. loan and NOT Jack Tramiel which is FACT very well documented but Viva Amiga team did not have any problem to ignore it!). 

 

I even make topic to collect and document all sites on internet that repeat and propagate lies from R J Mical and Dave Needle: REWRITING HISTORY - 'Jack Tramiel loaned Amiga $500.000'

 

 

RBP is "Rock Bottom Price" codename for Atari ST.

When Jack Tramiel left Commodore, he went to a trip around world with his wife Helen. He really mean to take a break from business but when Jack Tramiel got offer from Warner to buy Atari (actually to become CEO which Jack refuse and propose to buy it), he get immediately in touch with his favorite engineer, Shiraz Shivji (who still work at Commodore), and agree with him to design and build RBP - Rock Bottom Price computer, which will be produced and sold by Atari Corp.

Shiraz and other loyal engineers to Jack, start to design new computer (RBP) while they still were at Commodore! Plan was that Shiraz and other leave Commodore as soon as Jack get back from trip around world*.
On 17. May 1984. Jack Tramiel WITH Shiraz Shivji and Lee Schreiber found TTL. Tramel Technology, Ltd.
In next few months, in Commodore exodus happened (see link at bottom)! Many Jack's loyal employees leave Commodore for TTL (which was renamed to Atari Corp. as soon as deal with Warner was signed).
Commodore immediately sued Shiraz Shivji and others ex-Commodore engineers for, allegedly but never proven on court, stealing trade secrets asking court to forbid Shiraz and his colleagues to work on RBP.
Amiga - Atari Inc. contract was discovered by Leonard Tramiel and as soon as Jack sort of with Warner that Atari Corp. is owner of contract, he use it to contra sue Commodore and ask from court to forbid Jay Miner and other Amiga team members to continue work on Amiga!
It was not Jack one who first sue, it was Commodore. Commodore eventually lose court case, and pay undisclosed amount of money to Atari Corp. and pay all court expenses. Only few months ago, in one hour long interview with Jack Tramiel by 8bit generation, he told that Commodore pay one million to Atari Corp. (I also urge anyone interested in Atari-Amiga history to watch this interview with Jack Tramiel!).

To cut long story short:
- Jack offer Amiga to buy its chips, but not taking engineers, while he was still in Commodore (1982.? - before Amiga sign contract with Atari Inc.)
- Jack did not have any concrete plans to work in computer industry until Steve Ross from Warner did not call him
- Jack only after that agree with Shiraz Shivji to design and make Rock Bottom Price computer (Atari ST)
- and most importantly: Jack did not WANT or had any plans with Amiga from this point and on - and this is LIE which is constantly perpetuate by some Amiga team members, and now entire Amiga community (see first post!)!


* Jack after leaving Commodore in January 1984. took a long trip with his wife Helen, around the world, not planing to do any new business anytime soon. BUT while he was on trip, Steven Ross, CEO of Warner, owner of Atari Inc., call Jack and offer him to buy Atari! Atari Inc. was loosing literally million dollar per day and Warner had to do something quick.

do not miss this link if you are interested in Atari Corp history: http://mcurrent.name...technology.html


Edited by calimero, Fri Dec 8, 2017 4:34 AM.


#95 Foebane OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Dec 8, 2017 8:18 AM

Calimero, have you seen "From Bedrooms to Billions: The Amiga Years"? Does RJ Mical repeat his statement there, too? I have it, and I could find out for myself, but it's a long documentary.



#96 zzip OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Dec 8, 2017 8:37 AM

Let me tell you a little story about one way in which the ST sucks:

 

I had my STFM back in 1990, around Autumn, and one day I put it on and was horrified to hear a constant beep, like that annoying blippy little beep that occurs every time a key is pressed, but this time it was a constant bleep and I couldn't do a thing, like use the keyboard or mouse, and the ST had locked up. So I disconnected everything, including the mouse and joystick, and proceeded to put the ST in a suitcase, wrapped in newspaper and took it to the computer shop.

 

Guess what? It worked perfectly. I was confused and annoyed that I'd taken this thing on the bus to town and had to go back with no explanation as to why it suddenly started to work again, but I took it back home, and yes, it did work again.

 

Guess what the cause of the lock-up was. I'll give the answer at the end of today.

 

Something was touching a key?

 

That happened to my STe recently.   Booted and keyboard seemed dead and constantly making that sound.   Moved it to a different room and it worked.   Discovered something was resting against the space bar just enough that it wasn't obvious, but enough to give constant keypresses.



#97 Foebane OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Dec 8, 2017 9:52 AM

 

Something was touching a key?

 

That happened to my STe recently.   Booted and keyboard seemed dead and constantly making that sound.   Moved it to a different room and it worked.   Discovered something was resting against the space bar just enough that it wasn't obvious, but enough to give constant keypresses.

 

You are VERY warm indeed. Clue: It's to do with the connected peripherals I mentioned, but I bet you'll never guess it in a million years - no offence. :)



#98 Christos OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Dec 8, 2017 2:54 PM

Foebane... the problem was your joysticks autofire. Btw since you clearly hate the st and since anything you write is produced by a very simple piece of code

if(string=='amiga'){
return good;
else
return bad;
}

Is there any more point to your comments?

#99 ParanoidLittleMan OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Dec 8, 2017 2:59 PM

OK, first time I joked here, mostly because name Foebane  - but now I asking moderators to look his trolling, and get rid from this misery.



#100 Foebane OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Dec 8, 2017 5:43 PM

Foebane... the problem was your joysticks autofire. Btw since you clearly hate the st and since anything you write is produced by a very simple piece of code

 

That's correct, but you do not win a prize since you insulted me. Why would Jack permit such a stupid design decision? I confirmed the joystick test by holding down the fire button when I reset. Result? Same issue.






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