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Emulation on 4K TV's


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#1 atarifan88 OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:13 PM

Hey everyone.  Currently I am running Atari & Intellivision emulation on a regular HD TV with 1080i resolution.  I have no special "game modes" on the TV and notice no latency while running these emulators.  My TV is starting to act up which means I will be shopping for a new one.  I have been looking at the 4K TV's but was wondering if anyone on here has one and have tried out Stella & JZINTV using these newer model TV's?  If so, did you notice any latency and was there a "game mode" on them that fixed it?  I'm wanting to weigh the new technology before I go and buy one.  Thanks in advance for the help!



#2 stephena OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:52 PM

No advice on the TV, since I'm not yet in the market for a 4K TV.  My only concern is how Stella will scale to 4K.  Or more to the point, if performance will suffer.  It really shouldn't, but I've never tested on such a high resolution before.  It's also possible the in-game fonts will be quite a bit smaller.

 

At some point I will move to a 4K computer monitor and be able to better test this.  But I'm holding out for a cheap (relatively speaking) 30" 4K IPS monitor.



#3 spacecadet OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:23 PM

You can find latency tests for most major modern TV's on rtings.com. It's a great site; they go really in depth and are unbiased. It's how I found my Sony X900E.

 

The X900E does have pretty high latency in its regular picture modes, which I do notice (I haven't played those emulators specifically, but it shouldn't matter - latency isn't going to change). Interestingly and probably related, when I output sound to both the TV and my receiver, the sound is out of sync by almost exactly 100ms. Luckily my receiver will compensate up to that amount.

 

It does have a game mode, though, that brings the latency down to around 30ms, which is not noticeable (at least to me).

 

Most 4K TV's will do a bit better than that in both regular and game mode, and most do have a game mode. But it's part of the standard tests on rtings.com to tell you that.

 

I definitely wouldn't buy a TV solely for having low latency, though (and obviously I didn't). Unless it's significantly over 30ms even in game mode, I would worry a lot more about picture quality and other things.


Edited by spacecadet, Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:25 PM.


#4 israelg OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:24 PM

it will be interesting to see CRT emulation on 4K TV, 

 

Since they have 4X pixels and the potential for a closer CRT reproduction...

 

Please post pictures...



#5 stephena OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:32 PM

it will be interesting to see CRT emulation on 4K TV, 

 

Since they have 4X pixels and the potential for a closer CRT reproduction...

 

Please post pictures...

 

In the case of Stella at least, it won't make any difference in the current code.  Everything is just scaled larger, so the CRT effects aren't taking effect of a larger resolution.  At some point we may add more accurate TV effects that require a high-res monitor/TV, but that isn't going to happen at least until I have the hardware myself (and even then, only if we can find time to do it).



#6 Flojomojo ONLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:42 PM

I AM PUTTING ON MY CAPS LOCK KEY JUST TO SHOUT ABOUT HOW AMAZING MODERN RESOLUTIONS ARE

 

THIS IS SD VS HD VS 4K

4k_comparison.jpg

 

AND THIS IS A 2007 IPHONE SCREEN SUPERIMPOSED ONTO THE HIGH DEFINITION SCREEN OF THE 2017 IPHONE X

300762-640.jpg

 

CAN I GET A "HOLY SH!T" HERE?



#7 zzip OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:52 PM

it will be interesting to see CRT emulation on 4K TV, 
 
Since they have 4X pixels and the potential for a closer CRT reproduction...
 
Please post pictures...


A lot depends on the quality of CRT emulation in the emulators themselves. Some just suck at it. The better ones give good results on a 1080p TV.

One thing to remember- if you are making the emulator do the 4K output and apply the effects, it's going to run slower. Sometimes you might be better off having it run at a lower res and letting the TV do the upscaling.

The atari800 emulator can do a nice CRT emulation at 800x600. Looks fine upscaled on my monitor.

#8 mr_me OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:37 PM

With your current TV you should be ouputting 1080p or 720p/768p. Interlaced 1080i will give you 30Hz video rather than 60Hz video.

#9 atarifan88 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Nov 7, 2017 2:59 PM

Picked up a 4K TV and tried out my raspberry pi powered Intellivision Flashback on it.  No noticeable lag during game play and the graphics are super crisp!  Looking forward to picking up one of those Atari Flashbacks with HDMI soon!



#10 zzip OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Nov 7, 2017 3:28 PM

Picked up a 4K TV and tried out my raspberry pi powered Intellivision Flashback on it.  No noticeable lag during game play and the graphics are super crisp!  Looking forward to picking up one of those Atari Flashbacks with HDMI soon!


Is the Pi doing the upscaling or is the TV? I'd expect the Pi to struggle more if it has to upscale. But the only reasons to have the Pi do it is maybe you want to play with CRT emulation or other filters at higher res, or your TV does a lousy job.

#11 atarifan88 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Nov 7, 2017 3:31 PM

Is the Pi doing the upscaling or is the TV? I'd expect the Pi to struggle more if it has to upscale. But the only reasons to have the Pi do it is maybe you want to play with CRT emulation or other filters at higher res, or your TV does a lousy job.

 

I'm not sure.  I had this built for me so I'm not really tech savy.  All I know is it's better than the real thing because of the picture quality! :)



#12 stephena OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:37 AM

Just an FYI, but I'm the process of getting a 4K monitor for my main development machine.  So at least I will be able to see how Stella works in such an environment.

 

EDIT: One of the things that I'm buying to help with Stella development, as promised in my retro-computer sale in another thread (and generous donations from users).  Never let it be said that I don't invest in Stella development :)



#13 keepdreamin OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:55 PM

I just grabbed a new 4K HDR set that has only around 14ms of input lag in game mode.  Considering most high end PC gaming monitors are around 9ms, this is pretty damn impressive for a 55" set that isn't specifically billed for gaming, just a run-of-the-mill no frills smart TV.  I wouldn't be able to tell much of a difference (if any at all really) between a 30ms delayed set vs 14ms.  That change certainly wouldn't affect my gaming.  But more importantly for this new TV was the price point, and it's fully OSSC compliant (which should be a TV testing standard for all manufacturers  :lol: )

 

http://atariage.com/...-on-4k-for-800/



#14 toptenmaterial OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 5, 2018 5:30 PM

I read an interesting thread about 4K upscaling on another site somewhere. The TV has to "upscale" no matter what because of the resolution, otherwise you'd end up with a display area far smaller than the size of the screen. What I'd like to see is an analysis of how fluid the upscaling is on these sets on a case-by-case basis.

#15 Beer Monkey OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:35 AM

I read an interesting thread about 4K upscaling on another site somewhere. The TV has to "upscale" no matter what because of the resolution, otherwise you'd end up with a display area far smaller than the size of the screen. What I'd like to see is an analysis of how fluid the upscaling is on these sets on a case-by-case basis.

The LG OLED 4K sets, to my eye, are integer scaling NT Mini 720p to 2160p, no problems, no softness, no noticeable artifacts.  I could put up some test patterns and take pics sometime.

 

They also take 960p to an apparent 1920p, leaving black bars to fill the rest of the screen, also looks great.  I get 960p out of the OSSC when I feed it 480p from the Wii.

 

I have a huge interest in shaders for 4K HDR, especially with vector games.  Not sure what's available.  This would be for emulation.



#16 toptenmaterial OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:35 PM

The LG OLED 4K sets, to my eye, are integer scaling NT Mini 720p to 2160p, no problems, no softness, no noticeable artifacts.  I could put up some test patterns and take pics sometime.
 
They also take 960p to an apparent 1920p, leaving black bars to fill the rest of the screen, also looks great.  I get 960p out of the OSSC when I feed it 480p from the Wii.
 
I have a huge interest in shaders for 4K HDR, especially with vector games.  Not sure what's available.  This would be for emulation.


What are shaders? I'm in the tech part of AtariAge and have a little learning to do. It's something that makes Vectrex emulation really pop on the screen?

I'm wondering what an OLED set costs. I'm afraid to ask. My only experience with OLED was the first gen Vita, and those were the most gorgeous graphics I've ever seen!

#17 danlock OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:52 PM

CAN I GET A "HOLY SH!T" HERE?

 

emphatically not.



#18 hardcorehubz OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:11 PM

I have a 4K OLED and it is amazing, especially when I use the CRT-Royale shader in Retroarch for emulators. It integer scales very nicely and for things like the Super NT just set them to 720p and it will upscale them very well. I rarely use my CRT outside of Light gun games now, it looks that good.



#19 toptenmaterial OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:03 PM

I have a 4K OLED and it is amazing, especially when I use the CRT-Royale shader in Retroarch for emulators. It integer scales very nicely and for things like the Super NT just set them to 720p and it will upscale them very well. I rarely use my CRT outside of Light gun games now, it looks that good.


Are you using a Pi as a console?

#20 atarifan88 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:20 PM

I discovered a few interesting things on my 4k HDTV.  When I have my Atari flashback 8 plugged in, there is a little bit of lag.  When I switch the TV to game mode, the lag gets worse.  When I plug in my laptop and play Atari via the Stella emulator (not in game mode) there is no lag and everything is perfect, especially because I can play homebrew games.  So why the heck should I keep buying flashbacks that just are not up to gaming standard?  I'm going to invest in a paddle adapter and say goodbye to the Flashbacks forever!






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