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CRT TV vs Modern TV for retro games


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"Natural mode"? I'll have to look into that. 480i through my Framemeister looks like a dog took a crap and rubbed it all over my screen. If a different profile can fix that, I'm all for it. On a CRT you get that bouncy look, but it's super sharp in my eyes at least.

 

I can only assume you've been using the wrong processing mode with 480i sources, as one of the often hit upon positive review points of the framemeister is it's amazing handling of 480i.

 

This is where the framemeister is a bit goofy. It doesn't auto detect which mode to use. Firebrand's profiles should have the setting saved in his progressive vs interlaced profiles.

 

Look at your remote control under "processing modes". There's quite a bit there, but the general consensus is to use only two. Simply put, if the video source is progressive (240P. 480P etc..) use "picture". If the video source is interlaced (480i), use "natural".

 

So if you were gaming in 240P in picture mode, and then some 480i content started. It would still be in picture mode, and full of combing artifacts.

 

One of the best places to see the difference between the two modes that I can think of is Sonic Jam for the Saturn. The gameplay is 240P, so I'll leave the mini in "picture" mode. The select menus are in 480i, however. The game select screen uses a rotating carousel of 3D rendered genesis carts. With that screen in "picture", when you select between the games you'll see the familiar combing/tearing whatever you want to call it. Put the mini in "natural" and try again, you'll immediately see the difference.

 

Or, just fire up a VF2 and play a few rounds switching between the two.

Edited by keepdreamin
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My brain just hurt by reading all the BS what you wrote

 

We're talking about now, Not in 93 or so ....

 

CRT's are authentic when you play Consoles 2600 up to the PS2 on it

 

Don't give me this crap about not being authentic

 

Sigh... just because you can't wrap your brain around a simple concept doesn't make it BS. :roll:

 

See those "likes" under that post? They got it.

 

I'm not going to try and explain it again just for you. I will say it's based on this: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrisy

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Sigh... just because you can't wrap your brain around a simple concept doesn't make it BS. :roll:

 

See those "likes" under that post? They got it.

 

I'm not going to try and explain it again just for you. I will say it's based on this: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrisy

 

 

 

Well you said

"Anyone says you need a CRT for an "authentic" experience is blowing smoke up your arse."

OK, again..What is authentic to you? Like playing the SNES on a 4K TV using Composite to HDMI

Me Playing a SNES threw a CRT Composite TV look's hell of lot better then upscaling to HDMI

Also Lag, Don't forget that

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I can only assume you've been using the wrong processing mode with 480i sources, as one of the often hit upon positive review points of the framemeister is it's amazing handling of 480i.

 

This is where the framemeister is a bit goofy. It doesn't auto detect which mode to use. Firebrand's profiles should have the setting saved in his progressive vs interlaced profiles.

 

Look at your remote control under "processing modes". There's quite a bit there, but the general consensus is to use only two. Simply put, if the video source is progressive (240P. 480P etc..) use "picture". If the video source is interlaced (480i), use "natural".

 

So if you were gaming in 240P in picture mode, and then some 480i content started. It would still be in picture mode, and full of combing artifacts.

 

One of the best places to see the difference between the two modes that I can think of is Sonic Jam for the Saturn. The gameplay is 240P, so I'll leave the mini in "picture" mode. The select menus are in 480i, however. The game select screen uses a rotating carousel of 3D rendered genesis carts. With that screen in "picture", when you select between the games you'll see the familiar combing/tearing whatever you want to call it. Put the mini in "natural" and try again, you'll immediately see the difference.

 

Or, just fire up a VF2 and play a few rounds switching between the two.

 

Thanks for that. I'll give it a shot.

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Well you said

 

"Anyone says you need a CRT for an "authentic" experience is blowing smoke up your arse."

 

OK, again..What is authentic to you? Like playing the SNES on a 4K TV using Composite to HDMI

 

Me Playing a SNES threw a CRT Composite TV look's hell of lot better then upscaling to HDMI

 

Also Lag, Don't forget that

 

you need to take the whole post in context, bud.

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Anyone says you need a CRT for an "authentic" experience is blowing smoke up your arse.

 

This is incredibly simple to break down:

 

-Ok, so your CRT is authentic... but what about those HD retrovision component cables? Did you have those back in the day, or were you using composite? Oh, so there weren't component cables for the Genesis then? Ok..

-I see you've got an Everdrive you've got over there, you have one of those too back in 93? No? Hmmmm

-What about those 8bitdo bluetooth controllers and receivers? You have those? No again huh?

-Hey look a PVM for the authentic experience, did you grow up gaming inside a TV studio with custom BNC cables you found on the internet? You didn't? That's odd.. icon_confused.gif

-etc.

 

So basically when you're telling me that I "need" a CRT you're cherry picking what you consider authentic. icon_thumbsup.gif

 

That said, I do have a small CRT for occasional light gun use, but otherwise it sits in a corner unplugged. icon_lol.gif

 

I'm used to the fast refresh rates of modern displays. 60hz 240P on a CRT is tolerable, but not ideal. 480i on a CRT? No thanks, you may as well break an onion open in my fa e. Same eye watering grimace.

 

I think the flaws in your argument are you are setting up a strawman where if you don't have exactly what you did back in the day then you are cherry picking which if taken consistently would even include things like buying games today that existed back in the day but you didn't have, you are placing an arbitrary line between the time period of back in the day and today when back in the day bled into today with no line anywhere, and not considering that back in the day people were forward thinking about what kind of advances they would consider enhancing their authentic experience.

 

For an example, something you will commonly find among us "authentics" is that we prefer pre-HD consoles on CRT's and HD consoles on LCD's. So, let's look at the HD consoles side of things. When the PS3 came out if you asked us,"Do you prefer to use the a/v cables on a CRT or HDMI on an LCD?" then we would have answered,"HDMI on LCD." If you asked,"How would you feel about this LCD technology advancing, you eventually playing on better LCD's, do you hope to eventually play on the "ultimate" LCD, and would you still consider the experience authentic?" then we would answer,"I would love that! Of course, I want this LCD technology to advance, want the "ultimate" LCD to hook my PS3 into, and yes the experience would be authentic because that is how I wish I was experiencing the PS3 being displayed today." Therefore, if one of us was to claim that playing a PS3 on an LCD is the authentic way to play instead of on a CRT we wouldn't be cherry picking and/or being hypocritical if we hooked up a PS3 to an LCD bought today even though LCD's from today didn't exist "back in the day" of the PS3.

 

With CRT's it is the exact same thing. We wanted the technology to advance, bought new ones along the way as they did, and hoped for the "ultimate" CRT to hook our pre-HD consoles into. That's why it isn't cherry picking and/or hypocritical if we don't have the exact same models of CRT's for each and everyone of our consoles that we originally played them on. That's why we can buy better models than we had while still being consistent with our preference. Even when it goes as far as getting PVM's from TV studios because part of the hope from "back in the day" for the "ultimate" CRT was that CRT technology would advance that far then find its way to the consumer market.

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I think the flaws in your argument are you are setting up a strawman where if you don't have exactly what you did back in the day then you are cherry picking which if taken consistently would even include things like buying games today that existed back in the day but you didn't have, you are placing an arbitrary line between the time period of back in the day and today when back in the day bled into today with no line anywhere, and not considering that back in the day people were forward thinking about what kind of advances they would consider enhancing their authentic experience.

It's not a strawman. I'm not the one claiming something is "authentic". That burden doesn't lie with me, that lies on the people staking that claim. If you're going to claim one aspect of your gaming setup is authentic to the experience, but give a pass to another, you're cherry picking,

 

You did hit a key point though. Today and then do bleed into each other, and folks want advancements in technology. Who are you to say that being able to game on a larger tv, which doesn't weigh 200lbs , no scan lines and razor sharp pixels isn't part of that?

Edited by keepdreamin
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It's not a strawman. I'm not the one claiming something is "authentic". That burden doesn't lie with me, that lies on the people staking that claim. If you're going to claim one aspect of your gaming setup is authentic to the experience, but give a pass to another, you're cherry picking,

 

You did hit a key point though. Today and then do bleed into each other, and folks want advancements in technology. Who are you to say that being able to game on a larger tv, which doesn't weigh 200lbs , no scan lines and razor sharp pixels isn't part of that?

 

I'm not. If gaming on a larger TV, which doesn't weigh 200lbs, no scan lines, and razor sharp pixels was what you were hoping for back in the day then I would say that would be a part of that for you.

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I'm not. If gaming on a larger TV, which doesn't weigh 200lbs, no scan lines, and razor sharp pixels was what you were hoping for back in the day then I would say that would be a part of that for you.

If that's your stance, which is a perfectly fair one, than my original post wasn't addressed to you.

 

It was addressed to the folks (and there are plenty) who make a point of telling others they aren't getting the authentic experience UNLESS they get a CRT.

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Dreaming is right it does get old with the self righteous types about crt can’t LCD for old gaming. There’s a wide range of capable to incapable screens for the old stuff. Many lag and some others don’t. The experience isn’t any less than intended if the game functions the same. The drawn line there is the death of the old light gun games

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"These old games weren't meant to be played on flat screens. They NEVER would have been played on flat screens when they were new."

 

Except...

 

post-9942-0-11399300-1509022901.jpg

 

Like I said, please take two steps back and remember that what you want out of your setup may not be what the next guy wants. And that's not only okay, it's part of the fun!

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I have a CRT in my basement, which is technically my retro gaming room. I just think it looks better. It's not necessarily about being authentic. Retro games were developed on CRT's and look best on CRT's.

Ditto here.

 

If we're talking about REAL hardware, it's going to look bad on an HDTV (without mods and/or Framemeister), and it's going to lag. If I wanted to play those games on an HDTV, I'd just skip all the actual hardware and use emulators instead.

Edited by Asaki
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"These old games weren't meant to be played on flat screens. They NEVER would have been played on flat screens when they were new."

 

Except...

 

attachicon.gifgamsnesunit530.jpg

 

Like I said, please take two steps back and remember that what you want out of your setup may not be what the next guy wants. And that's not only okay, it's part of the fun!

I can't really tell from the photo whether or not that screen is flat, but the pro-CRT stance isn't about the thickness of the screen, but how the image looks. Did the screens on SNES kiosks look more like modern TVs than old ones?

 

I'm also not saying that you have to or should play on CRTs.

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"These old games weren't meant to be played on flat screens. They NEVER would have been played on flat screens when they were new."

 

Except...

 

attachicon.gifgamsnesunit530.jpg

 

Like I said, please take two steps back and remember that what you want out of your setup may not be what the next guy wants. And that's not only okay, it's part of the fun!

 

While your last comment is 100% dead on..when most people say flat screen, they mean HDTV don't they? LCD, Plasma, whatever? That's surely a CRT, albeit a flat one, in that SNES kiosk.

 

I don't know anyone, even in this anal hobby, that makes a big difference between flat and curved CRTs (though maybe I read it affects light guns somewhere? Not sure)

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Well I prefer a matrix display, OLED, LCD, LED, Plasma, whatever. Why? Because once they're adjusted I don't have to change their settings for a real long time. I like the consistency and stability. And perfect geometry.

 

And on some games like flight simulator or space simulator part of the display is static. I don't have to worry about burn-in on LED/LCD.

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I can't really tell from the photo whether or not that screen is flat, but the pro-CRT stance isn't about the thickness of the screen, but how the image looks. Did the screens on SNES kiosks look more like modern TVs than old ones?

 

I'm also not saying that you have to or should play on CRTs.

 

They were flat screens. I remember, because when I first saw one, I thought "THIS is what I've wanted! Why can't TVs at home look like this?" I always hated the distortion caused by curved screen CRTs.

 

 

While your last comment is 100% dead on..when most people say flat screen, they mean HDTV don't they? LCD, Plasma, whatever? That's surely a CRT, albeit a flat one, in that SNES kiosk.

 

I don't know anyone, even in this anal hobby, that makes a big difference between flat and curved CRTs (though maybe I read it affects light guns somewhere? Not sure)

 

Not going to dig up old ghosts, but I've heard people against flat CRTs as well. Because their way has to be better, of course.

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Not going to dig up old ghosts, but I've heard people against flat CRTs as well. Because their way has to be better, of course.

 

Well you already dug it up with your kiosk example then. :-D

 

Crazy one to me in any case!

 

Flat screens. Harumph. We all know flat screens aren't authentic....

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While your last comment is 100% dead on..when most people say flat screen, they mean HDTV don't they? LCD, Plasma, whatever? That's surely a CRT, albeit a flat one, in that SNES kiosk.

 

I don't know anyone, even in this anal hobby, that makes a big difference between flat and curved CRTs (though maybe I read it affects light guns somewhere? Not sure)

Oh, they're out there. Believe it. Some of the older SD flats had a tendency to compress the image towards the center of the screen (or technically, probably the sides got stretched). So a scrolling background would do this trippy warp thing, would shrink down and expand back out. So yes, there are "fishbowl or die!" folks. Edited by keepdreamin
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Oh, they're out there. Believe it. Some of the older SD flats had a tendency to compress the image towards the center of the screen. So a scrolling background would do this tripp warp thing, would shrink down and expand back out. So yes, there are "fishbowl or die!" folks.

 

Crazy! I've got a few flats and a fishbowl and I've never noticed.

 

Sometimes I look at my lone curved screen (a 13" SonyI found at the dump), which is later, and not very curved at all, and compare it to my memory of my 19" Emerson (or RCA, can't recall which) I had in the early 90s as a kid....which I swear had a bubble curve so big that the centerpoint of the screen was a minimum of 2 inches ahead of the corners!

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Well I prefer a matrix display, OLED, LCD, LED, Plasma, whatever. Why? Because once they're adjusted I don't have to change their settings for a real long time. I like the consistency and stability. And perfect geometry.

 

And on some games like flight simulator or space simulator part of the display is static. I don't have to worry about burn-in on LED/LCD.

Doesn't LED have burn-in concerns? Unless you meant LED backlit.

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I can't really tell from the photo whether or not that screen is flat, but the pro-CRT stance isn't about the thickness of the screen, but how the image looks. Did the screens on SNES kiosks look more like modern TVs than old ones?

 

I'm also not saying that you have to or should play on CRTs.

 

It's about a 20" flat screen CRT there, a precursor of sorts of the Sony Wega. They have very sharp screens, the system tied straight into it and the CRT fine tuned to give the games the best sharpest appearance you wouldn't get at home until years later with the WEGA level stuff basically. I'd still kill to get a desktop kiosk of that but with all the asinine fanboyism and people willing to float a 4 figure offer on such things that'll never happen. :D SNES games had flat screens in mind, not sure much earlier did though.

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