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scsi2sd v5 to black box configuration


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#1 sailboat26 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 2, 2017 5:44 PM

Hello, I recently purchased a scsi flash drive adapter called the scsi2sd ver.5. It is a small board with a 50 pin scsi connection that supports a secure digital flash card, similar to what cell phones and cameras use. I have written the author and he says that no scsi interface card is needed. My question is how to format a flash drive to read/write data. Since the drive is flash, I am assuming that a low level format is not needed, just partitioning and formatting with mydos or sparta dos. Also, I am not sure what byte size 256 or 512 per sector to use in the formatting.

 

The scsi flash drive is listed here with all the specs:

 

https://store.inerti...scsi2sd-v5b.htm

 



#2 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 2, 2017 6:25 PM

wow for that premium price you think he'd hold your hand all the way through...

it's supposed to be open source as it stems under an open source license but it's for sale page says it is in one place and that it isn't in another...

http://www.codesrc.c...tle=SCSI2SD_FAQ

http://www.codesrc.c...I2SD_UserManual

https://bitbucket.or.../scsi/wiki/Home

 

it would be best to low level format and test with the BB... speed and sector layout matter. then do the  rest of it...  I'd stick with 256 bytes if the interface allows it... that gives you the best chance to work with more Atari adapters and DOS


Edited by _The Doctor__, Thu Nov 2, 2017 6:26 PM.


#3 hunter44102 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 2, 2017 7:04 PM

You connect the SCSI2SD to a Windows machine with USB.  You can then create up to 4 different 'Partitions' each with a different SCSI ID

 

I believe you just need to enter the sector/size info like you would on an MIO config.  However, you would not do a low level format because that was only used in old MFM controllers.

 

You will still need to run the HDConfig? utility on the MIO Disk that copies the SpartaDOS files/setup onto the hard drive (I always had to do that to make hard drive work in sparta)

 

scsi2sd-util_upgradefirmware.png



#4 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 2, 2017 7:45 PM

so this card really isn't scsi to sd exact replacement... I thought the original scope of the project was to make it operate like a real scsi device for apple mac and such with no need for windows .... anyhow glad the links helped. not sure I wanna run to a windows box to set stuff up though..



#5 ijor OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 2, 2017 7:55 PM

wow for that premium price you think he'd hold your hand all the way through...

it's supposed to be open source as it stems under an open source license but it's for sale page says it is in one place and that it isn't in another...

 

I recall reading the developer site about a year ago. He mentioned he was getting too much demand for the product, and that he was intentionally raising the price because he couldn't meet the demand. I also remember a note that the latest version is not (fully) open source.



#6 Larry OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 3, 2017 7:28 AM

I've seen this device before, but I don't have one.  However it looks very similar to the "Aztec Monster" and (now very pricey) Acard 77xx series of SCSI emulators.  I'm pretty sure that I used the Aztec Monster with an SD card via adapter, but not positive.

 

I've run both the above with my Black Box systems for years.  It is a bit tricky to set up, but those devices both work fine, so I would think that yours would also.  You should not need to do a low-level format (I never did -- since the BB will accept 512-byte sectors and then create 2-256 byte sectors from them.)

 

Hopefully the files in this zip will help with your setup, even though a different device:

Attached File  How to Set Up the Acard with BB (or MIO).zip   6.61KB   8 downloads

 

You probably have the regular BB docs, but available at

http://www.nleaudio.com/css/

 

And there is some additional info at

http://www.mathyvann...nl/blackbox.htm

 

-Larry



#7 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 3, 2017 10:07 AM

512 byte sectors limits you to just the black box.... the MIO and others can't do it.. well not without a brain transplant and some reworking of the some of the devices....

I have found it a good practice to run the BB in mio mode and the smaller sector size... it just allows that hard drive or other device to move around to other device if need be.... a trip to a festival... the bb power supply died the bb istelf failed for whatever reason.... being able to move the drive around is just so much easier.. that being said I do have some scsi drive that are only reliable at 512.... and can't be used on the MIO unmodified.... I lost a bbs back up this way...

 

as for never low level... that used to be required on drives.. and you used to put in bad sector lists at one time too.... if the device is what it says it is... that would be an excellent test of the reliability of device and connected devices... and could only serve to make sure everything is as it should be... ymmv


Edited by _The Doctor__, Fri Nov 3, 2017 10:13 AM.


#8 Larry OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 3, 2017 11:49 AM

Hi-

 

How would you do a low-level format on an SD or CF card to 256 bytes/sector?  Not saying it couldn't be done, but I'm not familiar with a tool to do it.

 

You're right about the MIO, but it does perform quite a bit better with the new rom.  I don't think you could run one of these devices with the old rom, anyway, but I admit I never tried.

 

-Larry



#9 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 3, 2017 2:19 PM

the adapter card should approximate the procedure.... the cards have wear leveling built into them so you shouldn't have to worry about bad sectors etc etc... I wish the dang things would report the health of the card be fore they die.... solid state drives and cards wear out pretty quickly but hide the fact by internally remapping and hiding the worn out storage areas to extra areas only available for said re-asignment.. I used to have to recover data from thrashed sd cards and the like... and there are utilities to mess with a good number of things not readily available to the world... so just like some of the hard drives that 'can't be leveled' you can with the appropriate tools... maybe those days are gone.. the device should allow all scsi functions and commands so any ancient old software/firmware that demands it can be used, since that is the stated goal of the device... whatever the case.. as for sector on the card... it used to be approximated by the fat system involved... just like some ide solid state drives allowed for different chunks so did early sd card, to a degree...

 

in event we are down to 3 or so modes of operation... and the device doesn't specify any of it...  SPI, 1 bit, and 4 bit.... bit banging slows the cards down ridiculously.... but on our machines it should still be able to pull off movies if the firmware translates fast enough on newer cards even in the bit banging methods of transfer.. by not performing a read in a block but only modify and write we can see some results there as well.....  I think my mind wandered way out of scope here... and I'm not sure why.  I just was hoping they took the interface 'all the way' and not just good enough to sort of get by...


Edited by _The Doctor__, Fri Nov 3, 2017 2:21 PM.


#10 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 3, 2017 3:21 PM

today some of it is even more terrible the higher capacity cards are even worse...

sd cards are great for saving stuff that never changes but are terrible for data that changes often... even by 1 bit.... as it must physically erase the whole block before re writing the whole block to change the 1 bit... an error of any kind and it has to re assign the block... ugh


Edited by _The Doctor__, Fri Nov 3, 2017 3:23 PM.


#11 BillC OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Nov 4, 2017 3:43 PM

512 byte sectors limits you to just the black box.... the MIO and others can't do it.. well not without a brain transplant and some reworking of the some of the devices....

I have found it a good practice to run the BB in mio mode and the smaller sector size... it just allows that hard drive or other device to move around to other device if need be.... a trip to a festival... the bb power supply died the bb istelf failed for whatever reason.... being able to move the drive around is just so much easier.. that being said I do have some scsi drive that are only reliable at 512.... and can't be used on the MIO unmodified.... I lost a bbs back up this way...

 

as for never low level... that used to be required on drives.. and you used to put in bad sector lists at one time too.... if the device is what it says it is... that would be an excellent test of the reliability of device and connected devices... and could only serve to make sure everything is as it should be... ymmv

The MIO is supposed to be capable of 512 byte sectors with the thirdparty(V1.41) firmware available @ rasterline.com

This firmware also supports more recent SCSI HDD, Seagate drives up to 73GB have been tested.

 

MetalGUy66 has posted about drives that work with the updated firmware on his website:http://www.rasterline.com/drives.html

And there is a thread on AA about drives for the MIO: http://atariage.com/...o-drives/page-1

 

There is also a post that indicates even more drives should be compatible with the MIO if some of the TTL chips  are replaced with "F" series:

http://atariage.com/...33#entry2133017



#12 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Nov 4, 2017 8:09 PM

hmmm burn a chip and and burn some flux... am I up to it... not just yet... better wait till I'm more steady again



#13 sailboat26 OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 8, 2017 8:44 PM

Thank you hunter44102 for the info. I configured the card with 4 scsi 2 gig 512k sector partitions using the following scheme:

 

Device 1    0 - 4194303 sectors

Device 2   start at 4194304 sectors

Device 3   start at 8388608 sectors

Device 4   start at 12582911 sectors

 

I am assuming that each scsi id is looked at as a single scsi drive and the sector count starts at zero and goes to the physical end of the drive. The device numbers are the logical partitions.



#14 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 8, 2017 8:55 PM

In the Atari world it's more normal to do 8 or 16 partitions, 16 or 32 meg in size and duplicate that for swapping if you like.......unless using black box because of image slots image slots then up to 96? partitions....

 

only Sparta handle largest partitions.... others stay at 16 or less if things haven't changed since my stupification...

 

most scsi are limited to device 0-7 back in the day.. so that's 8 to choose from with two logical units each.. unless the device/computer eats one for itself...

So usually 14 or 16 individual drives..


Edited by _The Doctor__, Wed Nov 8, 2017 9:00 PM.


#15 SoulBuster OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 9, 2017 9:12 AM

96 partitions is correct for the black box, for a single partition table.  However, you can have multiple partition tables thereby increasing the number of partitions you can have.

 

I have had in the past multiple partitions setup to enable me to have boot disks on 720 sector partitions. I had upwards of 150 or so partitions set up for this purpose.  I had space reserved for 10 Partition tables.  That is 960 partitions.

 

You just have to keep track of what sectors the partition tables start at and change the BB accordingly to access different partitions.

 

I have plans to do this with my Hard Drive Tower.

 

http://atariage.com/...er#entry3767877



#16 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 9, 2017 10:09 AM

yes you can have multiple partition tables and are still limited to 8 dev 2 lun. I'm just wondering if adding it all together perhaps including a fat partition if possible what the maximum could be that the Atari 8 can access and address with all the mods and devices at our disposal..  and I'm going off topic....

 

What is the absolute maximum storage the black box can address with whatever revision firmware and software... using partition swapping and ID/lun swapping, without physically changing any drives, as you can use utilities to do so. I though there was a numerical top that was reach where it got in it's own way...

 

Trying figure the maximum usable area per drive that would be accessible and then setting each device slot to that amount..... see where I'm going with this? that way nothing goes to waste and we spread the excess to other assigned dev/lun


Edited by _The Doctor__, Thu Nov 9, 2017 10:13 AM.


#17 SoulBuster OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 9, 2017 11:20 AM

For physical drives, the BB can handle up to 8 controllers with two drivers per controller, 16 drives total.  If using embedded SCSI controllers, 8 drives total.

 

Partitions are limited to 16 megs with Mydos 4.5 and Spartados (I have not checked if newer Sparta X can go larger, I think it can. The manual also says 48 megs with the release of MyDos 4.6).

 

I did not read anywhere in the manual regarding a size limit on the HD itself.  The limit is probably how many heads and cylinders you can enter.



#18 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 9, 2017 5:40 PM

I seem to remember a problem where it wraps around on itself stepping on data after a certain point.... but I am a confused person some days...



#19 Mathy ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 9, 2017 6:49 PM

Hello guys

 

MyDOS 4.6 unfortunately never happened.  I asked Bob Puff about that years ago.

 

I once burned an Atari 8 bit Boot CD for use with the BlackBox.  It contained 17 partition lists.  The CD is only half full.   :D

 

Sincerely

 

Mathy






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