Treasure of Tarmin vs Tower of Doom

[mr_me]

These are two role-playing games on Intellivision. I'm looking for some comments on how these games are similar and how they differ. Is one preferred over the other? Other than the fact that one is first person perspective and the other is a top down view, to someone unfamiliar with them, they seem like similar games. Although Tower of Doom has more animation, they both seem to have very little action elements. Treasure of Tarmin battles seem turn based, and although more animated there doesn't seem much to Tower of Doom battles in terms of action. Here are some comments I found on the internet.

 

http://allconsolerpgs.blogspot.ca/2012/06/below-cut-swords-serpents-ad-cartridge.html
http://crpgaddict.blogspot.ca/2014/12/game-170-advanced-dungeons-dragons.html
https://archaeogaming.com/2015/02/03/dungeon-crawling-on-the-intellivision/

 

 

ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Treasure of Tarmin cartridge
(That's the official title, aka Treasure of Tarmin, Minotaur.)

 

size: 8K
developer: Tom Loughry, APh Technological Consultants, 1982
publisher: Mattel Electronics, 1983

 

overlays: http://www.intvfunhouse.com/mattel/overlay/dndt-000.jpg
instructions: http://www.intellivisiongames.com/flashback_instructions/minotaur.pdf
objective: "To win the game you must slay the Minotaur and grab the Tarmin treasure"

 

There is good information in the Intellivisionairies episode 10 podcast inlcuding a programmer interview and some links to game tips.
http://intellivisionaries.com/episode-10-add-the-treasure-of-tarmin/
https://web.archive.org/web/20120204190408/http://www.zebeth.com/playplanet/index.html
http://www.spatula-city.mine.nu/~intvlib/inty/misc/tarmin.txt
https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model.html?id=e8ac45a6e913f26c5adca30d4839a928

 

 

Tower of Doom

 

size: 24K
developer: Daniel Bass, Mattel Electronics, 1983; John Tomlinson, Realtime Associates, 1986
Graphics: Monique Lujan-Bakerink, Karl Morris, Mattel Electronics; Connie Goldman, Realtime Associates
Music/sound effects: David Warhol, Joshua Jeffe
publisher: INTV Corporation, 1987

 

In a 1993 Interview, Daniel B. described the game as being 80% complete when Mattel Electronics closed. "I had concentrated on the special effects and mechanics, but I hadn't put in the game play and strategy that I had had in mind." In 1987 INTV released the game. John Tomlinson through Realtime Associates completed the game. Daniel Bass being unavailable at the time described Realtime Associates efforts as follows. "He got one of the other programmers to finish it up, but he didn't add any game play either, he just tidied up the loose ends so that the game had an ending and wouldn't crash." Does the game feel unfinished?
http://www.digitpress.com/library/interviews/interview_daniel_bass.html

 

overlays: Tower of Doom didn't come with overlays
instructions: http://www.intellivisiongames.com/flashback_instructions/tower_of_doom.pdf
objective: escape the bottom of the tower (optionally find the Grail)

 

https://strategywiki.org/wiki/Tower_of_Doom

Edited November 7, 2017 by mr_me

[Flojomojo]

Tower is a roguelike, Tarmin is a crawler.

 

Once your brain understands there are only a limited number of mazes in Tarmin, you can "see the code" like the Matrix.

[mr_me]

So you're saying Treasure of Tarmin dungeons are not as random as Tower of Doom.

[Flojomojo]

I think that is a true statement, yes.

 

3D visualizations of the 32 possible ToT maps (16 and their mirrors)

https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model/e3b815523c28d9cf5adca30d4839a928/Treasure-of-Tarmin-3D-Map

 

Sadly, Tower is unplayable on the Intellivision Flashback (no collision detection) and not present in most of the Intellivision Lives compilations.

 

ToT is hobbled on Intellivision Lives for DS. Vital information is cut off the screen.

 

Both games were neat in their day, but they're very limited and slow. I think modern gamers are better served by playing Nethack (or other top down 2D roguelikes) instead of Tower, and The Quest (or Grimrock (or other 3D dungeon crawlers) instead of Tarmin.

[+Black_Tiger]

Treasure of Tarmin will always be one of my favorite games in general and has much more depth, variety and replayability than Tower of Doom.

 

ToD is cool for what it is, but it's too bad we missed out on the game it could have been.

[+wongojack]

I like both games, and I think they both hold up pretty well. I've played them both quite a bit, but not very recently. Tarmin is a bit more straightforward and while the maze shapes don't change, the (secret) doors move and of course the monster locations change. There is also variety in Tarmin around the "theme" of the floor - Magic gets more power on some floors etc. Tarmin is great because you don't even have to actually hunt the Minotaur, you can just explore the levels and do whatever you want. In fact, I think I've missed the Minotaur on his floor before and the game just keeps going or cycles back to the first floor again. That scenario is much less likely on the most difficult setting where the floors are quite deep and very challenging, but it is still true that you can just go wherever you want within the dungeon and change floors as many times as you want. The "timer" in Tarmin (and Tower) is food, so you have to have enough food to survive which I never remember being a huge problem.

 

Tower leaves a lot up to your own discovery. AtariAge user "TheGoldenBand" started this strategywiki for it - https://strategywiki.org/wiki/Tower_of_Doom/Colors. I've contributed to a few of the descriptions of the items. It seems that the power of the items is randomized, but the order of the colors always progresses along the same line. One thing about Tower is that the combination of all the game modes and the randomization of the floors and items gives the game almost infinite replay value. I think that "TheGoldenBand" may have played Tower even more than the guys who made it, and he's not done yet - Ask him. I think beginners run out of food much more often in Tower which can be frustrating when learning to play.

 

Edit - Regarding if they are "action oriented," Tarmin to me plays like a lot of the RPGs of the day. You make a decision on how to attack/defend/item/spell for your "round." This adapts the Pen/Paper style to the computer. In the case of both games, if you do nothing, your round will end and the computer will get its turn. These games will not wait indefinitely for you to make a decision. in that way, they cannot be described purely as "Turn Based" in the sense that term is usually used. Tower drifts farther away from the Turn Based norm than Tarmin, but neither fit that mold completely.

 

Tower of course gives you a view of a room that lets you see a monster encounter and make a decision about avoiding it or engaging (running is often the best choice). It also gives you the option of using ranged attacks before entering a melee encounter. This definitely makes the game feel more "action oriented" than Tarmin and is a style that I personally haven't experienced in many other games of the era (or otherwise).

[IMBerzerk]

I always felt ToT was more of an RPG minus the selection of character class, while Tower was more arcade than RPG...with character class.

[+intellivotion]

I got Treasure of Tarmin back in the day and it has always been my favourite Intellivision game. Nr. 1 of 125!
At the time I couldn't understand the English manual (the game didn't come with Italian manual), so playing it was a continuous discovery. I still remember how fun and amazing it was for me and my friend Filippo and how many hours we spent in summer 1984 (or at least I guess it was 1984) in search of the Minotaur.

I've come across Tower of Doom in relatively recent times after seeing it in intvfunhouse and I did't even know it existed before. Even if it's a great and deep game and I played it a lot, it can't compare with Treasure of Tarmin in the area of my brain that never grew up and remained 14 years old.

Edited November 10, 2017 by intellivotion

[+thegoldenband]

No surprise that, for me, it's Tower of Doom by a mile. The problem with Tarmin is that I'd rather play Dungeons of Daggorath -- a slightly glib answer, but the truth. I've just never connected with the game, somehow.

I also never played Tarmin as a kid, only Tower of Doom and (at least briefly) Cloudy Mountain.

Treasure of Tarmin will always be one of my favorite games in general and has much more depth, variety and replayability than Tower of Doom.

ToD is cool for what it is, but it's too bad we missed out on the game it could have been.

I can't really speak to the depth of Tarmin, but I'm surprised that you wouldn't see Tower of Doom as a highly replayable game, given all the different character classes and scenarios, the wealth of items (some of which remain mysterious in their function), and the numerous undocumented subtleties (well, formerly undocumented). I've put nearly 100 hours into it!

It seems that the power of the items is randomized, but the order of the colors always progresses along the same line. One thing about Tower is that the combination of all the game modes and the randomization of the floors and items gives the game almost infinite replay value. I think that "TheGoldenBand" may have played Tower even more than the guys who made it, and he's not done yet - Ask him. I think beginners run out of food much more often in Tower which can be frustrating when learning to play.

Another way of looking at it is that the items themselves are always the same, while their apparent colors are different but are always shifted in the same pattern. I'm pretty much done with Tower of Doom, at least as a player -- I finally beat every scenario with the Waif, which was my win threshold -- though I might document some more things about it.

 

And yes, the food thing can be brutal! Fortunately there are ways around that if you're lucky, and it's more or less typical of roguelikes anyway.