Protecting SIO ports, what is there

[Swami]

Surprisingly, I can't find any SIO extension cables, which I want so I can protect the ports themselves on my 800XL, XEGS, 1010, 1050 and SIO2PC when switching them around. Are there ways to protect the SIO ports, like using the 9 pin extension cables on controller ports? Are there SIO extension cables out there anywhere?

[Bryan]

I've never seen such a thing. The solution was always to buy longer cables (and there's a limit to how much cabling you can reliably use anyway). The only reliability issues are when the connector isn't secured to the board properly (which is exacerbated by the XF551's single sided board) or when you bend a pin in the connector.

[Swami]

I've never seen such a thing. The solution was always to buy longer cables (and there's a limit to how much cabling you can reliably use anyway). The only reliability issues are when the connector isn't secured to the board properly (which is exacerbated by the XF551's single sided board) or when you bend a pin in the connector.

 

Basically, I would want something where I never have to disconnect a cable from the hardware because each SIO port has a 1 foot SIO extension cable attached to it, so you are only connecting and disconnecting from the extension cable. People often do this with their controller ports, so they don't have to put stress on controller ports from repeatedly connecting and disconnecting different types of controllers (joysticks, arcade sticks, trackballs, paddles). I suppose a quintopus, or whatever it is (SIO multitap) might work, but someone recently said it saps power from your line:

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/272437-sio2sd-and-the-quintopus/

 

[_The Doctor__]

The Quintopus could be re imagined with parts that use less power in the port on position and more with the port off position for each side.... it would still use a little power but not that much in the active state.... That said... the sio2sd's of old suck power big time with wires to the header are very thin and weak

[+bob1200xl]

Or, you could build some extension boards something like this, with as many SIO jacks as you like. You can just wire all the pins port-to-port. No electronics needed.

 

 

 

Or you could just mount .025 pins on a board where they extend off the board on both sides - an interposer type thing.

 

Bob

[+Philsan]

SIOhub

 

[+mytek]

Or, you could build some extension boards something like this, with as many SIO jacks as you like. You can just wire all the pins port-to-port. No electronics needed.

 

DSC01604.JPG

 

 

Or you could just mount .025 pins on a board where they extend off the board on both sides - an interposer type thing.

 

Bob

 

Yeah I was curious why buffers were used on the Quintopus board? Because I remember a time when I used to have something like 4-5 SIO devices all piggy-backed without ever problem. Of course that was also back when everything was operating at 19.2 Kbaud , so perhaps with higher speed SIO the buffering is needed.

[BillC]

While the Quintopus is no longer available, I believe the EasyIO Spider is.

 

http://morethangames.a8maestro.com/proda8/adv-spider4.htm

[Swami]

SIOhub

 

Cattura2.PNG

Thanks. This looks ideal and affordable (although shipping may be painful). Searched on the site, but the name, though germane, was not obvious. My three questions would be:

1. Why is the "bottom of the board" "pic" a CAD image?

2. When would you use the extra optional 5V power supply?

3. Minimum required amperage for power supply disclosed with documentation? (toned as a question, really)

[+Philsan]

Swami, SIOhub is a new device and I don't have it.

You should ask questions to Lotharek.

[Gunstar]

I use an APElink SIO myself, but not to avoid plugging and unplugging but to use less daisy-chaining and so less SIO cables. I've never worried about damaging SIO ports because I have my setup and it stays. Maybe a device gets unplugged and re-plugged once every couple of years. I understand extensions for joystick ports, I have one I use, but I'm changing controllers on a nearly daily basis, and SIO device as I said above. So I have to ask WHY is someone plugging and unplugging devices so often on SIO ports to feel the need?!?

[_The Doctor__]

some daisy chains get quite long, changing the sio chain to a hybrid parallel / series scheme solves issues... additive / subtractive capacitance/resistance.... it works out well this way.. it's the same method used on all sorts of circuits.... like old time alarm systems and such.... I always fought for at least 2 sio ports on the Atari but it never happened... no one would need that many devices blah blah blah.... and the same genius that fought such ideas then sees no problems with dead end sio devices later.

Edited November 30, 2017 by _The Doctor__

[Gunstar]

some daisy chains get quite long, changing the sio chain to a hybrid parallel / series scheme solves issues... additive / subtractive capacitance/resistance.... it works out well this way.. it's the same method used on all sorts of circuits.... like old time alarm systems and such.... I always fought for at least 2 sio ports on the Atari but it never happened... no one would need that many devices blah blah blah.... and the same genius that fought such ideas then sees no problems with dead end sio devices later.

I'm planning on adding a second SIO port to my 1200XL, when I finally finish adding a PBI. Even though I already have APElink too. Just because I can...I could have sworn that I saw a picture of one of the unreleased XL prototypes that had two SIO's on it, but I can't seem to find that picture again.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Gunstar

[+mytek]

some daisy chains get quite long, changing the sio chain to a hybrid parallel / series scheme solves issues... additive / subtractive capacitance/resistance.... it works out well this way.. it's the same method used on all sorts of circuits.... like old time alarm systems and such.... I always fought for at least 2 sio ports on the Atari but it never happened... no one would need that many devices blah blah blah.... and the same genius that fought such ideas then sees no problems with dead end sio devices later.

By the way you worded this I would presume you worked for Atari, or at least had someone's ear that did. Am I far off base?

 

Anyway I too would have liked to see a 2nd SIO port, but better still if it had been active and derived from a 2nd Pokey (or better yet, a dual Pokey core) with an OS that could have utilized it to full advantage. This way it would have allowed for non-interference when one port was being used for a high speed modem while the other was busy with a disk drive. And of course while you are at it, support stereo, which would have made the A8 the only personal computer to do so at the time (might have been all that was needed to better compete with the C64).

[Swami]

I'm planning on adding a second SIO port to my 1200XL, when I finally finish adding a PBI. Even though I already have APElink too. Just because I can...I could have sworn that I saw a picture of one of the unreleased XL prototypes that had two SIO's on it, but I can't seem to find that picture again.

Is there some major difference between the APElink and the SIOhub?

 

As far as changing connectors, as an example, some of the SIO2 devices don't work well at the end of a daisy chain, or even with the Quintopus, so they'd have to go directly into the computer;

another example: My XC12 can't be Daisy chained and neither can my SIO2PC. They couldn't both be connected to the computer at the same time.

 

But with a low impedance parallel setup, I don't think this would be an issue and probably wouldn't have to change devices very often.

[_The Doctor__]

Stereo sound was canned on the 2600 as well as the 800 line, a repeating error but there were a few to choose from... you already know what happened with the other sound chips as discussed in other threads. The 4 joystick ports should have stayed, there were others solutions for memory as well. I slipped up, haven't I...my ranting got the best of me...can't figure a way to wrestle my way out of it... we'll have to leave it there. Can we just say I always fought to install an extra sio port on the Atari... since Gunstar can't find the pictures I'm safe?

 

Maybe someone will re imagine the ole' 8 bit with all the tid bits spread across these forums assembled to create another wonderful machine, almost all Atari 8's could be upgraded to that vision without too much trouble. Perhaps a 1650 XEMLD? or to cater to the musically inclined the 1650MLD AXE.

Edited November 30, 2017 by _The Doctor__

[Gunstar]

Is there some major difference between the APElink and the SIOhub?

 

As far as changing connectors, as an example, some of the SIO2 devices don't work well at the end of a daisy chain, or even with the Quintopus, so they'd have to go directly into the computer;

another example: My XC12 can't be Daisy chained and neither can my SIO2PC. They couldn't both be connected to the computer at the same time.

 

But with a low impedance parallel setup, I don't think this would be an issue and probably wouldn't have to change devices very often.

I've never used or read up on the SIOhub, but from the picture I can see a chip and some resisters , etc., so I imagine it does something the APElink does not. The APElink is just a proper 4-way SIO splitter, it can be purchased in one form ready-made, or you can purchase the kit, as I did, and it can be assembled with different combinations of male SIO plugs or female cables protruding from it.

 

The picture Bob1200XL posted above is the APElink, without it's case, and I beilieve that is the way it comes pre-assembled (and not using the forth area for a female cable attachement). Below is my APElink with the case, and I chose to use all four SIO spots, one of which has to be a cable (the bottom empty side on Bob1200XL's board above). I have two cables and two SIO ports (making the two cables out of one).

 

One cable goes to my 8-bit and the other goes to daisy-chained peripherals with two ports, and the two SIO ports I use for dead-end peripherals, one being a Microprint parallel interface and the other currently open for a future device. My SIO2PC/1050 dual is built-into one of my 1050's with direct RS-232 ports built in too, so they don't take up any SIO ports. And I don't use SIO2SD drives, just cartridge-port based and soon PBI based.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Gunstar

[gozar]

some daisy chains get quite long, changing the sio chain to a hybrid parallel / series scheme solves issues... additive / subtractive capacitance/resistance.... it works out well this way.. it's the same method used on all sorts of circuits.... like old time alarm systems and such.... I always fought for at least 2 sio ports on the Atari but it never happened... no one would need that many devices blah blah blah.... and the same genius that fought such ideas then sees no problems with dead end sio devices later.

 

In hindsight it's good that there weren't two SIO ports. Not that people didn't have have a lot of devices, but because we would have had even more devices that you couldn't daisy chain, like the XM301 and SX212.

[_The Doctor__]

those are the dead end devices that came later I was referring to, and would have been easy to deal with, besides I'd put the sx212 on the rs232 (see it has a work-around) and the xm301 on the chain... I've not seen shotgunning of the two but I doubt it and why would you run two modems at the same time anyway as the sx212 did 300 and 1200 bps rates... there wouldn't be a benefit. there wouldn't have been more dead end interfaces created if thats what your thinking... like suddenly every device would have one sio port only... every device that had a sio port, where possible should have had two sio ports including the Atari itself...

 

Did you notice the number or thing dead ending during Tramiel? and having a second port would have worsened this how?

xm301, sx212, xc-12 tape cassette, xep80..... etc etc.... gotta save on the sio port cost......

Edited December 1, 2017 by _The Doctor__

[Gunstar]

Can we just say I always fought to install an extra sio port on the Atari... since Gunstar can't find the pictures I'm safe?

 

 

Don't bet on that lasting, that prototype picture was what gave me the idea to add a second to my 1200XL...though it is possible that I mistook some other port for a second SIO port...

 

EDIT: update, I have discovered that it was the Atari 1000 and 1000X that were to have 2x (enhanced) SIO ports, but I have yet to find the picture(s)...this was the original code-named "sweet-16" project that was eventually cut down to the 1200XL.

 

Model: 1000

Manufacture Date: April - June 1982

Spec: CPU: 6502 1.79mhz / Ram: 16kb

Display: 24 x 40 text

Initial Sale Price: N/A - prototype "sweet-16" - entry level computer - 400 replacement?

Information: 2x (enhanced) SIO ports (with "wake" state) , PBI 4x function keys with onboard system diag.

 

Model: 1000X

Manufacture Date: April - June 1982

Spec: CPU: 6502 1.79mhz / Ram: 64kb

Display: 24 x 40 text

Initial Sale Price: N/A - prototype "sweet-16" - 800 replacment?

Information: 2x (enhanced) SIO ports (with "wake" state) , PBI 4x function keys with onboard system diag.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Gunstar

[_The Doctor__]

the precursor to modern day usb... careful because it's Christmas time and that's Atari porn your about to post.... you don't wanna mess up chances to be on the nice list

I am sure it would make a happy Christmas for everyone to gaze on them though. Of course 64K is the winner.

[Swami]

I've never used or read up on the SIOhub, but from the picture I can see a chip and some resisters , etc., so I imagine it does something the APElink does not. The APElink is just a proper 4-way SIO splitter, it can be purchased in one form ready-made, or you can purchase the kit, as I did, and it can be assembled with different combinations of male SIO plugs or female cables protruding from it.

 

The picture Bob1200XL posted above is the APElink, without it's case, and I beilieve that is the way it comes pre-assembled (and not using the forth area for a female cable attachement). Below is my APElink with the case, and I chose to use all four SIO spots, one of which has to be a cable (the bottom empty side on Bob1200XL's board above). I have two cables and two SIO ports (making the two cables out of one).

 

One cable goes to my 8-bit and the other goes to daisy-chained peripherals with two ports, and the two SIO ports I use for dead-end peripherals, one being a Microprint parallel interface and the other currently open for a future device. My SIO2PC/1050 dual is built-into one of my 1050's with direct RS-232 ports built in too, so they don't take up any SIO ports. And I don't use SIO2SD drives, just cartridge-port based and soon PBI based.

 

So now I am leaning towards the APElink. I'll have to ask Lotharek what advantages there might be to the SIOHub

 

This explains a bit about the extra electronics:

 

• automatic dual power switch - external 5V power supply or from atari
• SIO activity leds (read, write, command)

 

I'm thinking for the 5V power supply, an amp would be plenty, since the 800XL/XE uses a 1.5-1.8A PS.

[Gunstar]

the precursor to modern day usb... careful because it's Christmas time and that's Atari porn your about to post.... you don't wanna mess up chances to be on the nice list

I am sure it would make a happy Christmas for everyone to gaze on them though. Of course 64K is the winner.

Exactly! and IIRC, SIO and USB were engineered by the same guy...

 

I am beginning to think what I saw might have only been an artistic rendering of the 1000 (by what's his name that designed the XL lines looks), as from what I have found, only prototype motherboard(s) were made, and no prototype case? I really thought I saw a real pic of a real case back-side though...oh well, I've given up looking. I'll take pics of my backside...err...my 1200XL's backside when I finish the PBI mod and install the second SIO. Christmas time is safe from Atari porn coming from me, and your secret about "pushing for 2 ports" can remain vague.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Gunstar

[Gunstar]

 

So now I am leaning towards the APElink. I'll have to ask Lotharek what advantages there might be to the SIOHub

 

This explains a bit about the extra electronics:

 

• automatic dual power switch - external 5V power supply or from atari
• SIO activity leds (read, write, command)

 

I'm thinking for the 5V power supply, an amp would be plenty, since the 800XL/XE uses a 1.5-1.8A PS.

Well, maybe for the 5V power it is explained, but all you have to do for read, write, command LED's is attach them to those pins on the SIO, like I already did for my 1050 with the built-in SIO2PC, and am currently modding my 1010 for as well, no extra electronics needed for some flashing LED's... yikes! looks like I need to clean my 1050, those smudges don't show in my dark room, but they sure show up in this picture!

Edited December 1, 2017 by Gunstar

[ivop]

Here's my backside