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Why is there not an "AVS" (fpga based console) equivalent for the 2600?


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#51 Mr SQL OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 2, 2019 1:29 PM

 

Maybe so, but they do get the results. I don't care about much else - most of the PC emulation is accurate enough for me -  but 0-1 frames of lag is not to be sniffed at.

 

 

 

Agreed.  Latency sucks. 

 

But, that's why we use real hardware on a CRT, isn't it?  :)

 

If an FPGA VCS is a product I'm selling, I can't just pipe out the raw VCS output.  Many displays will choke.  It's a customer service nightmare.  I can't afford the hassle; nobody can.

 

A viable console will almost certainly need to offer a buffered 60Hz output option and an accurate VRR/Freesync/GSync mode.  The video output is so unpredictable; that's probably the only reliable solutions.

 

Maybe the MISTer project will eventually grow and offer what we want.  In the meantime, it's Stella and real hardware.

 

Excellent points! Now that Stella 6 is running on Hyperkin's Retron77 we can do some meaningful comparisons here between HDMI and CRT.

 

Try the following experiment comparing CRT and a classic console to the Retron77 with Stella 6 and HDMI:

 

(And if someone's got an FPGA Atari like that Walkman how does it perform over HDIMI? On CRT?)

 

Set the color switch to BW - this will cause the scrolling text to appear at 30 FPS@30 HZ instead of 30 FPS@60 HZ, resulting in very crisp text on CRT, and reduced motion blur on HDMI - I can actually watch the motion blur reduce by 50% turning into cool looking highlight outlines on the letters.

 

Now start the game (button) and on CRT it's crisp and clear scrolling at 60 FPS@60 HZ, on HDMI it's got 50% reduced motion blur again on my HDMI Plasma set.

 

Now throw the BW switch back to Color and motion blur occurs on either CRT or HDMI by scrolling at 30 FPS@60HZ - this creates the illusion of a large pulse width on CRT which causes motion blur just like the large pulse width does on HDMI.

 

The remaining motion blur seen on HDMI but not present on CRT is due to the output device and can be made to more closely match CRT by reducing the pulse width but that will also increase flicker; depends what people prefer.

 

MBR is a new technology I co-discovered with another inventor several years ago (blurbusters.com) while working on a soft blitter chip and advanced 3-D displays respectively - inadvertently fun stuff!

 

WARPDRIVE is bundled with the Retron77 but here is the link for anyone that doesn't have it or doesn't have Stella 6 on their Retron:

 

http://atariage.com/...ding/?p=4258084



#52 NE146 ONLINE  

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Posted Thu May 2, 2019 2:41 PM

 

If an FPGA VCS is a product I'm selling, I can't just pipe out the raw VCS output.  Many displays will choke.  It's a customer service nightmare.  I can't afford the hassle; nobody can.

 

A viable console will almost certainly need to offer a buffered 60Hz output option and an accurate VRR/Freesync/GSync mode.  The video output is so unpredictable; that's probably the only reliable solutions.

 

Maybe the MISTer project will eventually grow and offer what we want.  In the meantime, it's Stella and real hardware.

 

You forgot about the NT Mini with its 2600 core. :)   Granted it's not exactly available these days, but it is indeed a full blown FPGA Atari VCS (sans cartridge slot) with an analog output option that replicates a VCS signal. 



#53 orange808 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 2, 2019 3:42 PM

 

You forgot about the NT Mini with its 2600 core. :)   Granted it's not exactly available these days, but it is indeed a full blown FPGA Atari VCS (sans cartridge slot) with an analog output option that replicates a VCS signal. 

 

With a frame of lag.  :)  

 

and forced to 60Hz.  :)

 

:)


Edited by orange808, Thu May 2, 2019 3:48 PM.


#54 Jstick OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 2, 2019 5:50 PM

 

Agreed.  Latency sucks. 

 

But, that's why we use real hardware on a CRT, isn't it?  :)

 

If an FPGA VCS is a product I'm selling, I can't just pipe out the raw VCS output.  Many displays will choke.  It's a customer service nightmare.  I can't afford the hassle; nobody can.

 

A viable console will almost certainly need to offer a buffered 60Hz output option and an accurate VRR/Freesync/GSync mode.  The video output is so unpredictable; that's probably the only reliable solutions.

 

Maybe the MISTer project will eventually grow and offer what we want.  In the meantime, it's Stella and real hardware.

 

 

MiSTer has zero lag on its analog output (which will put out the equivalent of the original signal to a CRT).

 

As far as the HDMI output, the scaler currently produces less than a frame of lag (using the vsync_adjust=2 setting).  Of course the particular HDMI display you use may add its own lag, depending on the model.

 

MiSTer is currently very much a work in progress, but overall is quite promising.  Some systems are almost flawless, however the 2600 core still needs some work to properly support all games.  I am using MiSTer for NES, SNES, Genesis, PC-Engine, Amiga, the Atari 8-bit computers, and the arcade cores it supports; and I am very happy with the experience (especially with regards to input lag).  For the 2600, I’m currently using original hardware and carts.



#55 orange808 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 2, 2019 6:53 PM

 

 

MiSTer has zero lag on its analog output (which will put out the equivalent of the original signal to a CRT).

 

As far as the HDMI output, the scaler currently produces less than a frame of lag (using the vsync_adjust=2 setting).  Of course the particular HDMI display you use may add its own lag, depending on the model.

 

MiSTer is currently very much a work in progress, but overall is quite promising.  Some systems are almost flawless, however the 2600 core still needs some work to properly support all games.  I am using MiSTer for NES, SNES, Genesis, PC-Engine, Amiga, the Atari 8-bit computers, and the arcade cores it supports; and I am very happy with the experience (especially with regards to input lag).  For the 2600, I’m currently using original hardware and carts.

 

I have a MISTer, but I confess I spent limited time with the 2600 core.  It has some frustrating limitations and quirks. 

 

Given the architecture of MISTer and the current state of the core, I highly doubt there will ever be support for all the games out there.  I guess it's alright for a casual look at 2600 software.

 

I haven't tried the new scaler with the 2600 core yet.  I'll have to do that.  I suppose I could write a fast program to run a judder test.  A vertical line sweeping the screen horizontally should be trivial to implement.



#56 Jstick OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 2, 2019 10:58 PM

There's nothing magical about cartridges anymore. It's a fallacy they offer a better experience in this day and age.

 

That’s quite a subjective statement you’ve made  :)   

 

Cartridges are still very much magical, and they absolutely do offer a better experience even today...  FOR ME!

 

Sticking cartridges into an original VCS with original controllers is integral to my enjoyment of the system (and original cartridges at that, despite owning a Harmony Cart).

 

I will admit that for practical reasons I’ve come around to using ROMs for other systems, although I still enjoy using my original Amiga as well.



#57 Kosmic Stardust OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri May 3, 2019 9:56 PM

If it runs off roms (not carts) that makes a Harmony pointless anyways.

Homebrews that use melody boards likely will not run without supporting hardware. The arm cpu inside the Melody/harmony would require a fast and massive fpga to emulate.

Said games would require a cart bus to run as a result. Just like the Super NT don't support expansion chips, or the Mega SG don't support Virtua Racing via jailbreak.

#58 Keatah OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 4, 2019 3:25 AM

That’s quite a subjective statement you’ve made  :)   
 
Cartridges are still very much magical, and they absolutely do offer a better experience even today...  FOR ME!
 
Sticking cartridges into an original VCS with original controllers is integral to my enjoyment of the system (and original cartridges at that, despite owning a Harmony Cart).


Emulation became important to me because it was nearly a complete re-introduction of the stuff I enjoyed in the 70's & 80's. Stuff I honestly and truly believed I would never ever see or play again. Ever!

#59 Jstick OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 4, 2019 4:17 AM

Emulation became important to me because it was nearly a complete re-introduction of the stuff I enjoyed in the 70's & 80's. Stuff I honestly and truly believed I would never ever see or play again. Ever!

 

Emulation is awesome, especially for preservation.  There is absolutely no doubt that it is ultimately the way forward for the future, whether via software, FPGA, or some other hybrid hardware solution.

 

But I'll be hanging on to all my 2600 stuff until either it dies or I die :)



#60 Kosmic Stardust OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun May 5, 2019 1:40 AM

 
Emulation is awesome, especially for preservation.  There is absolutely no doubt that it is ultimately the way forward for the future, whether via software, FPGA, or some other hybrid hardware solution.
 
But I'll be hanging on to all my 2600 stuff until either it dies or I die :)

I am 38. My 4-switch Atari is as old as I am. If treated well, it may well outlive me. The carts surely will...

#61 SqueezeBoxer77 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 11, 2019 2:26 PM

Frankly if a Small company like Collectorvision games can put out a FPGA Colecovision console. Even if they have to charge 200 bucks. A console that never had the popularity of the Atari 2600. I see know reason why somebody else can't do the same. 



#62 Keatah OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 11, 2019 2:51 PM

Yup. All that's really needed is the right skillset/knowledge, interest, and attention to detail.



#63 christo930 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 11, 2019 10:22 PM

Short of being stuck with only having a new TV (and even then an old tuner with AV out would fix it), I really don't see the need, at least not right now.  They are not especially complicated and there are lots of them.  Then there are also the 7800s, which can play all the 2600 games.  The 2600 was available for close to 10 years.  They don't yellow either the way the SNES and NES do.  There are no region issues either.  Though it might be nice to have the ability to stick a memory card in it rather than cartridges (though new cart types might keep you from the newest games if a new cart format came out afterwards)



#64 Keatah OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun May 12, 2019 1:01 AM

Ehh --  memory cards are the way real gamers roll now. There are just so many advantages to the format. Universality, every computer accepts JumpDrives and memory cards. They have a real working file system to help you organize your collection. Reliability and convenience also factor in.

 

Individual carts are fine for collectors and folks wanting to consume space. Any new cartridge format that comes out is bound to be highly vertical and niche. Specific to one system and perhaps tied to something on-line. I never expect to see another "cartridge boom" like there was in 1979-1984.

 

People tend to complain you can't collect stuff on memory cards and if you do it's "lame" and just a bunch of roms and bits with 0 personality. Ohh bullshit on that. True it may not have meaning to a random stranger viewing your "collection". But it IS your personal library. Highly personal. Curated and organized in only the way that you could do!






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