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CX80 Trakball Rust


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#1 OldMCWeb OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:53 AM

Hi,

I got a cx80 in a bad condition and managed to get it working well.
I took the cx20 fieldservice manual as a help.
The shafts and the idler shaft are still rusty and i like to clean them but the idler shaft seems to be glued into the Plastik.
Is there a cx80 fieldservice manual, or has anyone disassambled a cx80 fully and could support me?

Thanks
Florian

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Edited by OldMCWeb, Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:02 AM.


#2 Gunstar ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:29 AM

I wish I can help, as I just rebuilt my trakball, but I just checked again and I have the CX22 model. CX20 is the driving controller, not trakball. I always get them mixed up along with my CX77 touchpad, I know it's easy to do. So I can hardly make heads or tails of your close-up shot. That sucks if it's glued in, Maybe some solvent can disolve the glue and not the plastic? On the CX22 everything is removable once the screws are off. 

 

IF your CX80 uses the same types of shafts as the CX22, new ones are available. From the picture it's totally redesigned though, and I wonder if your CX80 uses the same professional parts at all...is the ball hard and heavy, like a cue-ball? The CX22's actually are cue-balls, and they use pro-quality shafts. I'm curious because I was thinking of getting the CX80 model.


Edited by Gunstar, Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:48 AM.


#3 OldMCWeb OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:48 PM

Hi,

I'm actually new to trakballs but the cueball
is heavy and the overall build quality is good.
The shafts are burnished and the middel part that has contact to the
ball is not burnished.
I wonder why they didn't use stainless steel.
Even if I manage to remove the rust the sweat of the hand will quickly generate new rust.

I wasn't aware of Atari Trakballs at all, they are rare here in Germany and
importing from the US has very high shipping costs. So I have to take what i get ;)

The fieldservice manual would be a great help, but i can't find it for the cx80.

Edited by OldMCWeb, Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:34 PM.


#4 Gunstar ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:04 PM

Nice. I am glad to hear that it sounds as good quality as my CX22 version. The shafts are plated or burnished on the CX22 as well, but they are suppose to be burnished in the middle as well, at least on the CX22 model, it just wears off over time.This also causes the ball to "sink" a bit and so rolling is not as smooth because the ball jumps in the "cradle." But I don't know if they are stainless steel or not. I compensated with the original shafts by putting bits of electrical tape under them in the harnesses they sit in, which raised the ball back up again. Also, use some 3-in-1 oil on the bearings. Even if they seem to spin smoothly, a bit of oil will quite it down and markedly improve the spin/roll. 

 

Replacement shafts are available, just google "trackball" or trakball" shafts.



#5 Level42 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:38 PM

I wonder why they didn't use stainless steel.


That's is an excellent question, the only answer I can think of is: cost.

In my arcade collecting days I ordered my trackball rollers (and bearings) from Bob Roberts, an old arcade operator....

First of all his webstore has been closed for quite some time now, but I also don't know if the arcade trackball rollers would fit into any of the consumer models.

It wouldn't be that hard for someone with access to a CNC machine to reproduce these in small batches....

#6 OldMCWeb OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:22 AM

Yes, propably the Trakball wasn't designed to live 30+ years ;)
I cleaned the stucked bearing with some isopropanol alcohol then i put some wd40 on it to get it moving again and the add some finemechanical oil.
I also put some wd40 on the rusty parts on the shafts to clean them but that was't the best idear. Even after removing the rest of the wd40 with som elektronic component cleaner the cueball has a bit of a wd40 smell. I have to clean it again.
I also thought on put some shrinking tube on the shaft but i think it would have a bad effekt on the movement.
CNC will be a great option, i work for a company with a modern CNC machine. I will ask the operator if he could help me out in his freetime.
Probably the bearings are standart parts, i will ask a mechanikal engineer if he has a clou.

Today i played missile command on my vcs to test the joystick mode. Its real fun!

I recorded my progress as a video maybe i put it on YouTube help other cx80 owners.
Thanks for your posts, i will post my results if i could get some replacement.

Edited by OldMCWeb, Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:28 AM.


#7 Level42 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:05 PM

Haha that's a common mistake...lubing the ball/vs. rollers is not a good idea...

You should see the first trackballs Atari made for the arcade machines. I owned a cabaret (small cabinet) version which had a trackball that looked like it was built by NASA and meant to control some missile.....oh...wait a minute.....LOL

Here's one in terrible shape an der bad picture....I restored mine and it looked very sexy.

https://goo.gl/images/bxNZ3P

Not much later they switched to the plastic casings, still good quality though.

I never bothered trying to fix bearings.....they're 30 years old...so I always replaced the rollers and bearings.

Yeah bearings should be standard...although maybe US sizes ?

If you can have some made I'm pretty sure more people here (and on the 2600 section) would also be interested in a set...

I must say I have yet to find a home trackball from Atari that rolled as smooth as the arcade ones....

I do know the Wico trackball is exacly like an arcade one.....

#8 Level42 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:10 PM

By the way.....lots of rollers and bearings here....but not sure which would fit. One description says "hardened steel"....not sue if that is the same as stainless steel.....doesn't sound like it....


http://www.arcadesho...balls-parts.htm

#9 Level42 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:14 PM

Ever seen how rollers can suffer from the ball over the years ?

It's quite impressive what a plastic ball vs. metal rollers can do :)

https://goo.gl/images/cCjv23

This made the ball sit a low lower than meant to be and caused hurting fingers :)

Edited by Level42, Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:17 PM.


#10 OldMCWeb OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:47 PM

That's interesting!
How does steel gets so "eaten up" by a plastic ball ;)
US size shouldn't be a issue, I guess that kind of stuff is international.

I packed my recordings to a video, you can actually see the lubing on the cueball :(




#11 Level42 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:15 PM

US size shouldn't be a issue, I guess that kind of stuff is international.


Uhhhhhhhhhhh......sounds like you haven't dealt with US stuff much....

US = imperial sizes that no-one outside the US understands
Rest of the world = metric, a simple logical system that everybody can understand

But to be honest...I have no clue about bearing sizes....

#12 _The Doctor__ ONLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:08 PM

gee most people in the US can handle all systems well enough... fractional or otherwise... it's not their fault you only know how to shift decimals... (just to be a wise *ss) not an actual statement... now if only a tenth of the....


Edited by _The Doctor__, Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:10 PM.


#13 OldMCWeb OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:03 AM

Uhhhhhhhhhhh......sounds like you haven't dealt with US stuff much....

Thats true, but the internet will help.
And finaly a good reason to take out my slide calpier in US sizes i inherited from my grandfathers toolbox. ;)

Edited by OldMCWeb, Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:04 AM.


#14 Level42 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:10 AM

gee most people in the US can handle all systems well enough... fractional or otherwise... it's not their fault you only know how to shift decimals... (just to be a wise *ss) not an actual statement... now if only a tenth of the....



Hahaha, it’s always fun to do this......responses guaranteed.....

#15 Stephen OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:34 AM

Hahaha, it’s always fun to do this......responses guaranteed.....

No worries - I really wish we would have adopted the metric system decades ago.  As a mechanic, I have to keep double the tools (sockets, wrenches, etc.) and conversions were always strange (5280 feet per mile, 12 inches per foot - WTF is that, I'll gladly take 1000 meters in a kilometer).



#16 Gunstar ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:34 AM

Ever seen how rollers can suffer from the ball over the years ?

It's quite impressive what a plastic ball vs. metal rollers can do :)

https://goo.gl/images/cCjv23

This made the ball sit a low lower than meant to be and caused hurting fingers :)

This happened to my trak-ball shafts too, (didn't I mention that?) I still use the same shafts, I compensated by putting a layer of electrical tape in the floor of the cradles were the shafts sit, which raised the ball up to proper height again, and no jumping. With a little 3-in-1 oil on the bearings, everything works like new again. But then, I have the CX22 model, and don't know how the CX80 model's shafts are installed.

Near as I can tell from the video above, the shafts sit in similar cradles as the CX22, it just has the PCB surrounding the ball instead of underneath.

 

WD40 is fine for loosening up the bearings, but it evaporates and it's best to use some real oil, like 3-in-1 on the bearings.

Attached Thumbnails

  • IMG_20171231_112800.jpg
  • IMG_20171231_112825.jpg
  • IMG_20171231_112835.jpg

Edited by Gunstar, Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:45 AM.


#17 Level42 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:56 AM

Wow, that's a home trackball that has seem some serious use :):)

Creative solution by the way....

Oh and that looks pretty damn similar to an arcade version.....those rollers may very well be compatible with the arcade ones...

#18 Gunstar ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:25 PM

Wow, that's a home trackball that has seem some serious use :):)

Creative solution by the way....

Oh and that looks pretty damn similar to an arcade version.....those rollers may very well be compatible with the arcade ones...

That's why I was suggesting a google search for shafts, as it comes up with lots of places to by shafts like mine. The reason I used my solution instead, was the sensor wheels are on the shafts real tight, and I was afraid of damaging or destroying them attempting to transfer them to new shafts.

 

And yes, this trackball gets used a LOT. I have had it since the 80's and used it with games, art programs, Diamond desktop, etc., etc. But after 30 years, it did need a bit of maintenance. The outside case was horrendous too, with the trak-ball badge on worn, so I'm restoring the case too.

 

I'm going to try soaking the ball in peroxide mix, to see if I can get it "white" again. I do remember it looking exactly like a billiards cue-ball. I have played pool my entire "adult" life, and this ball looks and feels exactly like a real cue-ball to me, I have never compared side-by-side though. But if the peroxide doesn't work well, I'll be buying a real cue-ball and I'll find out! Or maybe I should use an 8-ball instead? :D

 

This is also why I was questioning the quality of components on the CX80. I have been thinking about getting one, because I like the case style, but if it's not the pro quality of the CX22 shafts and balls, then I'll get another CX22.


Edited by Gunstar, Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:56 PM.


#19 OldMCWeb OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:53 PM

(didn't I mention that?)

Yes you did but i was relly impressed by the comparison image from Level42 above.
Thanks for the good quality images. I wich to have both models in comparison.

There are lots of replacement shafts for reasonable prices but i have to find out if they fit or take the cnc way ;)

Edited by OldMCWeb, Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:01 PM.


#20 _The Doctor__ ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:03 PM

The source for our trackballs delivered black, white, and the very off white 'cream' balls... it may very well be the natural color... also it is best to polish the balls with a pure wax until smooth and shiny, this acts as a lube, and as a protectant for the ball as well as the shafts... if you use other choices on the ball it always leads to serious wear...


Edited by _The Doctor__, Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:04 PM.


#21 OldMCWeb OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:09 PM

a pure wax until smooth and shiny


What kind of wax do you use? For car purpose?

#22 Gunstar ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:56 PM

The source for our trackballs delivered black, white, and the very off white 'cream' balls... it may very well be the natural color... also it is best to polish the balls with a pure wax until smooth and shiny, this acts as a lube, and as a protectant for the ball as well as the shafts... if you use other choices on the ball it always leads to serious wear...

My ball looks worse in real life than the picture above. That's been photoshopped because the picture was too dark. Imagine the ball being the yellow color of the shadow area in the photo, all over, and even darker, no, not darker, just deeper yellow. It has definitely "yellowed" from what it originally was, which was an off-white, basically the same color as the XL line's off-white color scheme. Originally it was a pretty close match to the inside of the trak-ball case above, in the close-up shots of the shafts.


Edited by Gunstar, Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:00 PM.


#23 Gunstar ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:15 PM

What kind of wax do you use? For car purpose?

Unless the doctor suggests otherwise, I'd use carnauba wax.



#24 _The Doctor__ ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:16 PM

after your done attempting to remove the discoloration..... you can treat it with rain x... follow by another quick clean.... do not use standard car wax or buffing compounds (VERY BAD)

use pure ski waxes for glide not grip... I have always used pure waxes for wood and plastic drawer glides, I will try and track down what we used last time around...

 

polish polish polish, you want it to shine but not be too thick... too thin and it looks dull... just enough to shine.... it will lay down and pick up from the rollers and stay shiny, if you use too much, it will start to accumulate on the rollers, you can just wipe them down no problems, but that can get annoyin



#25 Gunstar ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:19 PM

Wico made a professional quality track-ball for home too; in fact, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Wico made Atari's CX22 trak-ball too. A little off-white paint on the bottom of the Wico track ball, and it'd match the XL line too! I may get one of these Wico track balls instead. I love the pro-grade Wico Command Control joystick I have that I modified to match the XL line.

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  • gallery_35324_1249_250202.jpg
  • XL_Wico.jpg
  • 2393409-wico_command_control.jpg

Edited by Gunstar, Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:34 PM.





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