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Disk Drive Problem - 1050 with 800XL


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#1 koolmoecraig OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:53 PM

Hi everyone

 

My 800XL and 1050 were working fine until I disconnected them and moved them to another room in my house...

 

The white and black switches are both set to the left.

 

I power on the drive and it spins for a second.  I put in a disk and close the door and it spins for about 10 seconds.  When I power on the computer it just goes to the "Ready" prompt. If I hold "Option" and let go of it when the blue screen comes on it still just goes to "Ready".

 

Basically it seems like the computer is not communicating with the drive.

 

Drive was NIB when I got it.  It has only been used about 50 times total in it's life.  I literally disconnected it and walked it to the next room without dropping it or anything. 

 

Thank you!



#2 Rybags OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:00 PM

Try moving the switches back and forth a few times (both left is correct for drive 1).

 

Aside from that the next thing would be a problem cable.  Try setting it up with few bends and none at sharp angles, or try another cable if you have one.

Next after that would be power supply which would be more complex to test, involving opening up the drive.



#3 DrVenkman OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:04 PM

Well, the drive behavior seems okay so far. Do you hear the drive head move when you power it on the first time? The head should move back and forth along the rails as it seeks Track 0. If it's not seeking, it could have any of a couple things wrong with it. But if it's seeking and then spinning down, that's good and normal.

 

If it's not, easy suggestions: unplug the SIO cable from the 1050 and try the other port on the drive. Alternately, as Rybags suggested above, try moving both drive select switches back and forth a couple times. If you have electrical contact cleaner like CRC or Deoxit, spray the switches, then cycle them a few times. Wait a few minutes to let the cleaner evaporate. Another suggestion is to try a second SIO cable. I've had one or two of them die over the years; probably a case of a wire working loose at one plug end or the other.



#4 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:40 PM

If the drive was on, and you still had power to the drive, even if it was off, and you disconnected the SIO cord or the barrel connector plugs with the power blocks still plugged into the wall there is a slight chance you blew a chip that handles drive id/sio in the drive, I am having a senior moment but a search of the forum or 1050 the forum member will probably tell you.

 

What was that chip near the back of the 1050's that always went bad, 3086 maybe?

 

Check the SIO cord or swap it for another, make sure none of the pins are messed up in the sio connectors.

 

http://atariage.com/...rive/?p=1714632


Edited by _The Doctor__, Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:50 PM.


#5 1050 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:01 AM

Yep, 3086 is the one that goes bad on occasion and
there are two of them and both do go bad but thankfully
not often both at the same time. One at the rear of
the board is the one doing the talking to the SIO
chain and the one at the front of the board is
involved with format/writing functions.

Rybags suggestion needs fleshed out first, moving the
drive select switches with either WD-40 or contact
cleaner wetting the switches. Move them 20 times
while wet and leave them in drive #1 position and
that should resolve the cruddy switch issue for another
decade or so.

They do the same thing here BTW, it's not an issue of
regular use, it's the one where they rarely get used
enough. Once set, they don't ever get the chance to
clean themselves of crude, I have to use a cleaner
on them every ten years like clockwork and that stuff
doesn't work unless the switches are wet with it
internally and they moved a very good deal, once or
twice just won't scrape away the crud.

Clean the head is next, again WD-40 will work here
but it takes a lot of elbow grease, one full minute
of slow steady swipes with Q-tip wet first with
WD-40 and then 93% rubbing alcohol for the rinse
cycle.

However I'm having my own brain fart, isn't the
default behavior with no drive connected to be
the self-test even with BASIC off? I have a
reverse Option BASIC machine and it's been
decades since I've turned the thing on so I
just can't remember. And if this is the issue
it points to the OPTION switch going cruddy?
Or the keyboard jack contacts?

One of those ways of booting BASIC with a drive
that won't respond gets you to the self-test
screen and you just can't prevent is my
'impression' thru the foggy brain cells. How
come we don't see that here? Am I all wet again?

#6 brenski OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:09 AM

also worth checking:

have a look at the SIO connectors on the back of the XL and 1050 - make sure you haven't flattened a pin when reinserting the sio cable



#7 Rybags OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:18 AM

Head-clean is irrelevant for a comms problem like this (but of course worthwhile if you've opened the drive up).

 

If you've got another peripheral, even a 1010 to be able to test the SIO cable with then that'd help a lot.

An alternative could be to use a multimeter to continuity test from each end of the SIO plug.



#8 kheller2 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:22 AM

Listen to the sounds the computer makes when powered on with the drive connected and w/o it connected.  If there is a small buzz/raspbery noise when the drive is connected when trying to boot from it, its probably said chip U1.



#9 koolmoecraig OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:37 PM

Thanks everyone.

 

I had no idea the chip could blow that way.  If I was to bet, that is where my money is because I realized the power switch was already one when I hooked it up again.

 

The drive was literally just removed from a sealed box a few months ago so can't imagine it's a dirt problem but who knows.

 

I'll run through everyone's suggestions this evening and report back.

 

What's the procedure for testing continuity on each other pins on the cable?

 

*** This is the chip i'll need if I blew it?

https://www.ebay.com...IMAAOxy3zNSfCFw

 

Thank you all again!


Edited by koolmoecraig, Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:40 PM.


#10 koolmoecraig OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:48 PM

Yep, 3086 is the one that goes bad on occasion and
there are two of them and both do go bad but thankfully
not often both at the same time. One at the rear of
the board is the one doing the talking to the SIO
chain and the one at the front of the board is
involved with format/writing functions.

Rybags suggestion needs fleshed out first, moving the
drive select switches with either WD-40 or contact
cleaner wetting the switches. Move them 20 times
while wet and leave them in drive #1 position and
that should resolve the cruddy switch issue for another
decade or so.

They do the same thing here BTW, it's not an issue of
regular use, it's the one where they rarely get used
enough. Once set, they don't ever get the chance to
clean themselves of crude, I have to use a cleaner
on them every ten years like clockwork and that stuff
doesn't work unless the switches are wet with it
internally and they moved a very good deal, once or
twice just won't scrape away the crud.

Clean the head is next, again WD-40 will work here
but it takes a lot of elbow grease, one full minute
of slow steady swipes with Q-tip wet first with
WD-40 and then 93% rubbing alcohol for the rinse
cycle.

However I'm having my own brain fart, isn't the
default behavior with no drive connected to be
the self-test even with BASIC off? I have a
reverse Option BASIC machine and it's been
decades since I've turned the thing on so I
just can't remember. And if this is the issue
it points to the OPTION switch going cruddy?
Or the keyboard jack contacts?

One of those ways of booting BASIC with a drive
that won't respond gets you to the self-test
screen and you just can't prevent is my
'impression' thru the foggy brain cells. How
come we don't see that here? Am I all wet again?

 

Do you offer a rebuild/bulletproofing service on these drives? 



#11 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:00 PM

Yes and no, easy to fix, the only bullet proofing comes by not plugging into the wall before plugging the into the drive especially with the power switch on. You can blow the internal fuse in the power block doing this as well, it is always best even with todays electronics to plug into power last, after all other connections are made....



#12 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:01 PM

yet another forum glitch, double post appears, even though I am on a wired internet connection directly to a backbone.

*deleted*


Edited by _The Doctor__, Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:03 PM.


#13 koolmoecraig OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:15 PM

Checking back in.

 

I tested out the cable - not that.

 

Everything was moving and spinning just fine so I figure it has to be a blown U1 3086 chip.  I removed the chip and ordered a new one and also got a socket for it so it's easy to swap if it happens again.

 

Hopefully this is the fix!



#14 toddtmw OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 3, 2018 2:35 PM

Is there any way to test the 3086 chips to tell which one is bad? (Or if it seven a bad 3086 chip at all?)

 

Thank you.



#15 1050 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 3, 2018 3:50 PM

Not really. Only two per 1050 drive but each 3086
has five transistors, any one of them can suffer from
beta decay where the gain just isn't what it was
when it was new and the performance of that circuit
is then lacking. Or outright failure which will
end the circuit's function. Only rated for 7 volts
maximum is one item of note for me, they just don't
hold up and carry their own weight it seems.

Blown diodes, bad voltage regulator, bad caps
lead the 'bad' item list with a funky 3086 next in
line. Kinda rare, but still trouble enough to just
replace if you can get them at a decent price. $10
is ridiculous, $3 is more like it. And $1 per in
50 count lots for the far visionary type.

NOS might not be the best buy as quality of silicon
used in the first generation. I would feel much
better with the more recent NTE 912 equivalent.

The usual way you find out if it is the 3086 is
when the drive starts working like new AFTER you
replace it at wit's end. So no easy way to tell.

You can play a hunch which is what I gather
koolmoecraig is doing. I would have cleaned
the switches first. If it's the switches then it's
still the switches and they can be cleaned anytime
and that's when it will start working again. No
foul, no error and it might be a good lesson learned.

Edited by 1050, Sat Feb 3, 2018 3:57 PM.


#16 koolmoecraig OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:06 PM

Hi everyone.

 

So I replaced 3086 chips.

 

No improvement.

 

Not sure if this is different but when I power it on, it spins and makes that little honk noise and stops.  Turning on the computer does nothing.

 

What's interesting is that if I turn on the drive while the computer is on, the drive will spin endlessly and will not stop until powered off.

 

Any ideas?  I tried two different SIO cables - could it be so simple as BOTH cables are bad?



#17 1050 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:37 PM

Not sure if this is different but when I power it on, it spins and makes that little honk noise and stops.  Turning on the computer does nothing.

Still not recognizing it as Drive one then. Drive is working.
Head steps in a couple of tracks and then jogs out to track
zero position to stop there and wait for a disk to be inserted.


untitled60.JPG

You can clean the switches with WD-40 if you don't have
contact cleaner or deoxit. As near as I can tell it's
pretty much the same stuff and working the same here
every time I try one for the other. Just be sure to
work the switches while they are wet something like
ten times each one. Wind up at Drive one as shown
above and it should wake up and start doing something
significant.
 

What's interesting is that if I turn on the drive while the computer is on, the drive will spin endlessly and will not stop until powered off.


That happens too when the drive doesn't know which
one it is supposed to be. My theory is that it
starts to answer a command as a valid drive number
and halfway thru back and forth coms, a switch changes
the drive number to something other than the one
that answered the command and the SIO system goes
into hang mode at that point precisely because that
kind of impossibility simply was not written into
the code to check for.
 
I go thru this madness every ten years or so.
That's my estimate of how long a decent cleaning
will last until the oxides build up enough to
start up the troubles again.
 

Any ideas?  I tried two different SIO cables - could it be so simple as BOTH cables are bad?

Never ever heard of any SIO cables bad - ever, so
I have my doubts. Have a gander at these if you
don't already have them for reference. Photo above
was taken from the DOS 2.5 manual, kinda strange
they couldn't do that yet again in the documents
below too.

Sams Photofact 1050
http://www.atarimani...cal_Service.pdf

1050 Atari Service manual
http://www.atarimani..._Disk_Drive.pdf

#18 koolmoecraig OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:59 PM

Maybe I should just send it to you to dial in? :)



#19 koolmoecraig OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:25 PM

Cleaned the hell out of the drive selection switches to no end.  Can anyone help me?  Is there anyone that offers a core charge on a refurb'd drive?  Like to get $50 for the thing to put towards a new drive.  Just sick of not being about to play.



#20 DrVenkman OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:00 AM

You can clean the switches with WD-40 if you don't have
contact cleaner or deoxit. As near as I can tell it's
pretty much the same stuff
and working the same here
every time I try one for the other. Just be sure to
work the switches while they are wet something like
ten times each one. Wind up at Drive one as shown
above and it should wake up and start doing something
significant.
 
[SNIP]
 
Never ever heard of any SIO cables bad - ever, so
I have my doubts. Have a gander at these if you
don't already have them for reference. Photo above
was taken from the DOS 2.5 manual, kinda strange
they couldn't do that yet again in the documents
below too.
 

 

Two point, highlighted above. First, WD40 is essentially a water displacer (hence the "WD" in the name). It works as a cleaner on electrical contacts, but not nearly as well as a specific electrical contact cleaner like CRC. And Deoxit is, frankly, almost miraculous in its ability to actually remove oxidation. I've used it to fix things with one tiny squirt that, after trying other stuff first, still didn't work at all. If Dexoxit won't clean something, you'll either have to take it apart and attack it with a wire brush, or else "diry" isn't the problem. 

 

WD40:

https://www.wd40.com/faqs

 

CRC Cleaner:

http://api.crcindust...s/get-pds/02130

 

Deoxit:

http://store.caig.co...category.188/.f

 

Seconds point, I have a bad SIO cable. It's got a breaking or broken conductor(s) somewhere in the cable near one connector end. If you bend it one way, it works but as soon as you let the cable relax you lose connection to the drive or peripheral it's attached to. Someday I might take it apart and rewire it, but I have numerous spares so it's never been a priority.



#21 1050 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:13 PM

Just reporting my experience of a lifetime condensed
and I'll stand behind every word with none taken back
or amended. Out of maybe 10 SIO cables I can scare up
not a one ever caused me any troubles at all. I doubt
I'm exceptionally lucky in that regard.

They say the same things about stabilant 22 only
way more Tesla mindset used in that crowd. Not
looking to join a cult today, I'll just manage some
how.

Thanks for the links, they will help those that need
them.

Unfortunately, I don't have a working Atari to test
or fix one with. Price suggested is not unreasonable
though. But I can't help with a good replacement
which no doubt is paramount to your needs. PM me if
you want to proceed, I'll take it. Hover on my posting
name and a choice for PM link should pop up.




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