emkay Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 Tell me more about MCS mode, guys. EmKay is that where you stretch the players and use them as background colour? How'd you get to 64 colours that way? It is no miracle The 64 colors I mentioned in earlier threads are a calculation of the colors that are truely different and worthy to use in Games. The MSC uses up to 9 colors at a scanline. The usage of the colors is still depending on the Game. So you can chose to create pictures by using fullscreen "DLI" and you can add colors by using the GTIA bug of mixing the colors... so a blue dot with a yellow dot under it in the next scanline will become "real" green... You have to find the right technique to produce graphics with as much colors as possible for each game... Another possible way to produce a scrolling game ist to use a fixed mcs screen (8 fonts and 5 colors) and use the PMg (3 color in overlay)with much as possible multiplexing to create a scrolling screen and use the fixed background with its 5 colors for the sprites: For Turrican you need: Black White Brown Blue Yellow Red Green will be mixed by blue and yellow... Brown can be mixed by red and green... Due to the fixed background, you can use as much DLIs until no more CPU time is available.... So it is only a clever usage of the capabilities ... nothing else... In theory it was possible to create games with a PMg-multiplex-screen and using Hi-res Sprites. Due to the fixed screen you could left the "HERO" allways in the center of the screen and make it colorfull with DLIs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 I'm sure it could be done - but I'm not so sure it could be as good.. Ofcourse it could not be done like on C64 .... but have it to ? Put some C64 goodies off and put some XL goodies in See the fact: In this time no Turrican still exists for the ATARI X. No version in 4 colors neither an XL/XE optimized version is at hand So what else could an ATARI and gaming freak do, then to buy an AMIGA to get the best version of Turrican(2) this time...? BTW: Am I the only one who recognizes that on the AMIGA the Turrican movement and scrolling is at the same time and on the C64 the Turrican stops movement while scrolling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted June 15, 2003 Author Share Posted June 15, 2003 i'll have to check turrican 2 on ccs64.... i just played the atari ST versions and the brilliant snes version... as i have an 030 42mhz a1200 as well but never played games with it... (? why the hell do i have then the amiga... ) f.e. emkay what i have in common with you is that a conversion should use the capabilities of the target machine... the atari ST version of turrican has not used any advanced features known at that time like MOD replay routines, Sync Scrolling... just "pure" 68000 power used... and that was quite disapointing when i played it... (i hate slowdowns... ). i had the enhanced 1040ste which has DMA digi 4 channel playback and hardware-scrolling + 4096 color palette... and why the hell does factor5 haven't used that features???? i prefer the way Thalion aloways made it... a good example is wings of death shooter... it detects what kind of machine the game is running and enables much more features like better digi soundtrack, hardware scrolling etc... but i know why the hell they did it in that way...because the coders used & loved atari ST and where hardcore atari coders in the demo-scene (marc rosocha f.e.). same with the jump&run "enchanted land"... enchanted land even used softscrolling etc envented on plain atari ST... why the hell no other companies used that? simple because the technique was not public... nowadays with the www its easier to get coding informations... but at those days... hve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted June 15, 2003 Author Share Posted June 15, 2003 but compared to atari 800...all necessary information where there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 BTW: Am I the only one who recognizes that on the AMIGA the Turrican movement and scrolling is at the same time and on the C64 the Turrican stops movement while scrolling? Heaven/TQA wrote: > i'll have to check turrican 2 on ccs64.... Mostly the Turrican is moving and the game is scrolling. In some parts the Game stands still when the Turrican is shooting or jumping. On the AMIGA the Turrican's moving and scrolling are allways at the same time. Exept the "360" weapon. This weapon needs the Turrican to stand solid.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheddy Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 Tell me more about MCS mode, guys. EmKay is that where you stretch the players and use them as background colour? How'd you get to 64 colours that way? It is no miracle The 64 colors I mentioned in earlier threads are a calculation of the colors that are truely different and worthy to use in Games. The MSC uses up to 9 colors at a scanline. The usage of the colors is still depending on the Game. So you can chose to create pictures by using fullscreen "DLI" and you can add colors by using the GTIA bug of mixing the colors... so a blue dot with a yellow dot under it in the next scanline will become "real" green... You have to find the right technique to produce graphics with as much colors as possible for each game... Another possible way to produce a scrolling game ist to use a fixed mcs screen (8 fonts and 5 colors) and use the PMg (3 color in overlay)with much as possible multiplexing to create a scrolling screen and use the fixed background with its 5 colors for the sprites: For Turrican you need: Black White Brown Blue Yellow Red Green will be mixed by blue and yellow... Brown can be mixed by red and green... Due to the fixed background, you can use as much DLIs until no more CPU time is available.... So it is only a clever usage of the capabilities ... nothing else... In theory it was possible to create games with a PMg-multiplex-screen and using Hi-res Sprites. Due to the fixed screen you could left the "HERO" allways in the center of the screen and make it colorfull with DLIs... Thanks Emkay - I'll read your other threads as well. I'd like to have the extra colours but reduce the flicker; I can't do some of the really clever, smart techniques like Andrew Davie's "Interleaved Chronocolour" (and also TIP/HIP of course), because they take away too much CPU time, and are not so suited for fast animation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 It is no miracle The 64 colors I mentioned in earlier threads are a calculation of the colors that are truely different and worthy to use in Games. The MSC uses up to 9 colors at a scanline. The usage of the colors is still depending on the Game. So you can chose to create pictures by using fullscreen "DLI" and you can add colors by using the GTIA bug of mixing the colors... so a blue dot with a yellow dot under it in the next scanline will become "real" green... I'm a little lost. What GTIA bug? Are you referring to the illusion of colors being mixed when scan lines colors are alternated or is this something more complex? -Bry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 I'm a little lost. What GTIA bug? Are you referring to the illusion of colors being mixed when scan lines colors are alternated or is this something more complex? Yes. It works 100% on PAL and gives some more needed colors. The colors are exactly as real as the colors from the colorpalette. But Sheddy cannot use this trick, because he uses a double scanline mode. The most complex thing here is to use this only where it is needed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted June 15, 2003 Author Share Posted June 15, 2003 unbelievable how good VIC-20 demos are... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 unbelievable how good VIC-20 demos are... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted June 15, 2003 Author Share Posted June 15, 2003 just discovered TMR's links and found some VIC 20 demos i havent seen yet... nothing special... same here as well... the new production look far better than the games from the late 70s... http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley...583/Vgrabs.html i love the dig dug conversion which looks better imho than the atari version... which is a shame... hve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 Any chance of a link to or a zip of "MCS" demos -- it sounds "interesting" :) sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 Yes. It works 100% on PAL and gives some more needed colors. The colors are exactly as real as the colors from the colorpalette. But Sheddy cannot use this trick, because he uses a double scanline mode. The most complex thing here is to use this only where it is needed... Does it work as well on NTSC? I seem to recall seeing some flicker when that trick is used (but it could be just because I've never seen it on a PAL TV). Wouldn't it be interesting if CPU time wasn't an issue (like with a CPU upgrade). Then it would purely be a matter of what you could get the machine to do graphically, not how much is going on in memory. Oh well, its better to work within the limits. -Bry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goochman Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 Maybe color usage on the Vic20 Dig Dug looks better but thats about it IMHO Defender looks like a great conversion job though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 16, 2003 Share Posted June 16, 2003 Does it work as well on NTSC? I seem to recall seeing some flicker when that trick is used (but it could be just because I've never seen it on a PAL TV). Ofcourse it doesn't flicker. MCS uses only a Multi-Charmode and PM Overlays. With the max. of 9 colors you gain, you may use additional the "double-scanline-color-mix" by the usage of the available colors. The only problem herein is that you cannot use/develop this "dithering" effect in an Emulator. Another example: By using of the Chamode you are able to use 5 colors: Black White Red Yellow Blue The colors(r,y,b) have to be at the same (or at least with one step difference) of brightness. So you may mix Red-Yellow -> Orange Red-Blue -> Violet Yellow-Blue -> Green To make great looking pattern/sprites you have to outline with black and white dots. @Jetboot Jack You already know MCS http://www.atariage.com/forums/viewtopic.p...1&highlight=mcs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted June 16, 2003 Share Posted June 16, 2003 I'd like to have the extra colours but reduce the flicker; I can't do some of the really clever, smart techniques like Andrew Davie's "Interleaved Chronocolour" In this context it's "J.D. Potter's ColorView". Let's not let the new hotshots lay claim to prior art, mkay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 16, 2003 Share Posted June 16, 2003 In this context it's "J.D. Potter's ColorView". ColorView is useless and I think Sheddy is using already a similar technique to get more colors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted June 16, 2003 Share Posted June 16, 2003 Ah - yes - that stuff! Spot PMG color in antic 4... But MCS has a FIXED PMG schema -- please explain that bit :-) sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 But MCS has a FIXED PMG schema -- please explain that bit :-) sTeVE What do you want to know? It is made the easiest way ... Registers SIZEP0-3 and SIZEM are set to use PMg at maximum width. They are positioned in the order: P0 M0 P1 M1 P2 M2 P3 M3 ... ... to fill the main screen. Missiles are using the color of its depending Player.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 ColorView is useless Golly, does Andrew Davie know this? You better stop him quick before he actually finishes his game that uses it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
video game addict Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 Maybe that's why he's only making ten copies of the game! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 ColorView is useless Golly, does Andrew Davie know this? You better stop him quick before he actually finishes his game that uses it! Heck .... what is he doing? A game with triple interlaced GTIA-Screens? ... and in 10 years all ATARIfreaks are blind? Do you have a link? It is unbelievable to me anyone would even take a thought on this.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 What do you want to know? It is made the easiest way ... Registers SIZEP0-3 and SIZEM are set to use PMg at maximum width. They are positioned in the order: P0 M0 P1 M1 P2 M2 P3 M3 ... ... to fill the main screen. Missiles are using the color of its depending Player.... I still don't see what this gains you. Now you have 40 low rez player pixels across the screen. How are they combined with the playfield? In front, behind? Man, I'm confused. From what I can tell so far, you're supposed to be able to change colors on a scanline basis and gets colors that are as "true" as palette colors, but only if you spread the players across the screen!?!? Can someone point me to something that demonstrates the result? Why don't I find anything on the web when I search for MCS Atari Graphics? I don't doubt that there's a genuine trick being described, but I think there are elements of the discussion that are missing (I realize there's a language barrier as well). -Bry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 What do you want to know? It is made the easiest way ... Registers SIZEP0-3 and SIZEM are set to use PMg at maximum width. They are positioned in the order: P0 M0 P1 M1 P2 M2 P3 M3 ... ... to fill the main screen. Missiles are using the color of its depending Player.... I still don't see what this gains you. Now you have 40 low rez player pixels across the screen. How are they combined with the playfield? In front, behind? Man, I'm confused. y Let's have a look on my prefered picture (using 6 colors): The colors are made by: 708 -> black 709 -> yellow 710 -> grey 711 -> orange 712 -> red 704-707 -> green (made by PMg behind the playfield) 712 is the Background 710 & 711 can be switched by character invert ( higher than 127) 708-711 filters the resolution of the PMg. red, blue and grey are made by using PMg violett is made by font inversion The picture uses 8 colors do you get it now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheddy Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 ColorView is useless Golly, does Andrew Davie know this? You better stop him quick before he actually finishes his game that uses it! Heck .... what is he doing? A game with triple interlaced GTIA-Screens? ... and in 10 years all ATARIfreaks are blind? Do you have a link? It is unbelievable to me anyone would even take a thought on this.... Check out the Fu Kung forum emkay - it's for 2600, (and pretty interesting too) But yes, you might need the So "Chronocolour interleaved " = ColorView? What's that "TM" all about then. Get an American patent on it too Andrew, should be no problem! I'm curious to see how the objects look when they are moving in Chronocolour - Because of the triple interlace, I would imagine you'd get some kind of ghosting effect... Cheers for the MCS explanation, emkay - interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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