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How many original releases are there?


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#101 m-crew ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:05 PM

Im not sure if it has ever been mentioned but how did Intv re release Pacman in the first place? You would think Atarisoft would threaten legal action.


Heres your answer

http://www.scottdeck...on_pac-man.html

#102 the1hatman OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:09 PM

Im not sure if it has ever been mentioned but how did Intv re release Pacman in the first place? You would think Atarisoft would threaten legal action.

 

I wondered the same thing. Intellivision Productions states this:

 

INTV Corp bought the remaining inventory of Pac-Man cartridges after Atari stopped distributing them. Sales were still strong enough that when the stock ran out in the mid-1980s, INTV bought the software rights from Atari, relicensed the game from Namco and manufactured new cartridges, removing the Atari logo from the game's title screen and packaging.



#103 Lathe26 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:27 PM

You can call Seattle and New Orleans test markets if you like but the fact is Mattel did not. When it came to the Keyboard Component they only called Fresno in 1980 the "test market". They specifically chose a different term to describe New Orleans and Seattle. And that is an internal document, not something to appease the FCC. Regardless, test markets or not, sales were not restricted to those two markets. Keyboard Components were sold to anyone, anywhere by mail order directly from Mattel.

 
"First market" is a often used in marketing departments as a term to mean a "test market for selling".  Seperately, yes the KC was technically available to anyone via mail order, but if Mattel significantly constrainted the knowledge of this to only 3 cities, then most folks in business would not consider such activity to be a release to the general public.  What I'd be interested in seeing is how Mattel got the word out to which groups of people about the KC mail order.  Is there any documentation that survives about this?
 

Mattel restricting sales of demo and test cartridges to authorised resellers and service centers has nothing to do with the Keyboard Component discussion. But Keith R. did describe demo and test cartridges as "not released to the public" ie. NFR.

http://www.intellivi.../credits2.shtml

Hewlett Packard providing demo and service materials to anyone is not precedence for anything. Some manufacturers choose to maintain strict control over sales and service channels and others do not.

 
Until you provided the link above, I was speculating whether or demo & test cartridges were available via anyone via mail order.  If they had been, then they would belong in a similar category as the KC software.  The fact that HP established precedent that other companies have done this which shows that it was possible that Mattel might have done the same thing.  However, the link above documents that Mattel did not make them available to the general public.  This firmly puts the demo & test carts in a clearly separate category (and definitively not in the 125).
 

Also note that Keith R. describes the KC software as "Released" and listed them along with the 125 and not with the unreleased cartridges. Why did he list them this way? Because they were released while he worked at Mattel Electronics.

http://intellivision...com/credits.php

None of the above is speculation, they are facts. And these lists should be based on facts. I don't understand what difference it makes that the Keyboard Component and software are considered released. It's just another list. The ECS cartridges are a list. I don't care for the ECS Computer Adaptor so I don't collect those cartridges. [And I've never seen an ECS in a store, to me it was vaporware.] There should be more lists for Intellivision gamers and collectors to reference.

 
Here's where we get to crux of the issue.  The link above documents that the official list is 125.  It also documents, contrasting what I said above regarding KC software, that the KC software _is_ to be considered released.  However, and this is equally important, the KC software is documented as not part of the 125.  The KC software is a separate list.  We can also see from the list that the ECS software (and Intellivoice software) are part of the 125 list.

 

--- broader audience ---

 

The main point I am demonstrating with all of this, is that we have a long-standing list of how many games were released for the Intellivision and that the recent attempts to change the number ends up becoming hair-splitting that makes the situation worse, not better.  In this thread (not just mr_me or myself), topics have been covered about whether the 125 should be changed for the 2 Pac-Mans, the altered Digi-Play games, the PlayCable, the KC software should, and the Demo and/or Test cartridges.  Some of these were brought up by myself playing the part of devil's advocate just to show how much of a confusing can-of-worms this discussion becomes the deeper we go.

 

In the end, we already have several official and long-standing lists of what exists for the Intellivision.  There is little reason to change them and it will be a major uphill battle for anyone who wants to change them.  The only thing likely to change these lists at this time would be new discoveries.

 

As for what makes a collector's collection "complete", that is for each of us to decide.  Yes, the lists are a starting point in deciding what "completeness" is but they are not end point.  Conversely, each collector's definition of completeness should not be used as the reason to go back change these lists; we'll just end up going even deeper down the discussion rabbit hole.



#104 mr_me OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:23 AM

Nobody is changing anything; 125 is the correct number of original cartridge games and compilation multicarts. These lists don't exist because someone says so, they exist because the cartridges exist. Keith R's list is simply recognising the facts. However, for a gamer that wants to play the games on original cartridges, that list becomes 124. That's not because I said so, it's because it's a fact that Triple Challenge is a compilation cartridge of previously released cartridges; no reason for a gamer to have it. If a collector wants to add complete Atarisoft and INTV sets then the list becomes 126. Add complete Action network and Space Network sets and it becomes 128. You can also subtract the six ECS cartridges or add the nine Keyboard Component cassette/cartridge releases if you care or don't care for the add-on hardware. All these lists exists because the cartridges and cassettes exist.

I can understand why a gamer or collector would exclude the Keyboard Component software from their list. One, they are not games; second, it's hard to find the bulky hardware in working condition; third, they are very rare and expensive. Does the discussion we are having, really have anything to do with it. If there were four thousand copies of Jack Lalanne's Physical Conditioning out there, most Intellivision collectors would have one in their collection.

 
"First market" is a often used in marketing departments as a term to mean a "test market for selling".  Seperately, yes the KC was technically available to anyone via mail order, but if Mattel significantly constrainted the knowledge of this to only 3 cities, then most folks in business would not consider such activity to be a release to the general public.  What I'd be interested in seeing is how Mattel got the word out to which groups of people about the KC mail order.  Is there any documentation that survives about this?
 
...

Not that it matters since Mattel did not use the term this way; but since you've mentioned it twice, can you cite a reference that the term first market has been used for test market; or that a limited release is not considered released? There's no rule that says products need a marketing campaign or have to be available to everyone. There are rules against false advertising which is what got Mattel into trouble.

I expect that Mattel did not advertise the fact that you could buy a Keyboard Component and software by direct mail order. They only did so in an attempt to get the FCC off their back and weren't interested in selling Keyboard Components. The direct mail order sales were a result of the initial marketing campaign of the Keyboard Component that started in 1980, resulting in people inquiring directly to Mattel and complaining to the FCC.

Edit: If you are going to exclude limited releases from a list than you are going to have to exclude Tutankham and Super Cobra, if it is correct that their sales were limited to Europe and Canada. That would make the collector's list 123 cartridges.

Edited by mr_me, Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:58 AM.


#105 Intymike OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:38 AM


Edit: If you are going to exclude limited releases from a list than you are going to have to exclude Tutankham and Super Cobra, if it is correct that their sales were limited to Europe and Canada. That would make the collector's list 123 cartridges.

 

Almost half of the releases didn't made it outside of the USA (and maybe Canada). Talking about limited releases.  ;)



#106 intellivotion OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:32 AM

Almost half of the releases didn't made it outside of the USA (and maybe Canada). Talking about limited releases.  ;)

are you talking about the Intv releases? AFAIK, they were initially sold at toy shops in Europe (or at least in Italy: I did buy Thunder Castle back in the day at my favourite toy shop in Leghorn, Tuscany). Then, they were sold by mail order from Telegames UK, Leicester, UK.
I believe the only game that has never been put for sale in Europe is Congo Bongo

#107 Lathe26 OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:02 PM

Regarding "first market", there are example usages in a snippet from the book "The Innovator's Guide to Growth: Putting Disruptive Innovation to Work" at https://books.google...market"&f=false.  You will also find different definition of the term "first market" in other contexts and even slight differences in the term within that book.  Other references are out there as well.



#108 Lathe26 OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:07 PM

Regarding Tutankham and Super Cobra potentially being considered limited releases, Canada is a country and Europe is a continent.  Those are several orders of magnitude larger than a few cities.



#109 mr_me OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:11 PM

Yes, all released products are released even when over 80% of the Intellivision market has been excluded as with Tutankham and Super Cobra.

#110 the1hatman OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:56 PM

You guys need to stop all this bullying of each other with all this disagreeing!

#111 thegoldenband OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:03 PM

Yes, but is it all new code like Championship Tennis and Chip Shot are


If memory serves, neither of those games is all new code -- both are known to be based on the existing code for Tennis and PGA Golf (respectively).



#112 m-crew ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:45 AM

You guys need to stop all this bullying of each other with all this disagreeing!



Could you just stop and move on, because what you are doing right now pretending its a joke is no joke its bulling , That's for sure. Maybe you need to watch a bulling video.

Edited by m-crew, Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:53 AM.


#113 m-crew ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:51 AM

edited

Edited by m-crew, Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:52 AM.


#114 intellivotion OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:11 AM

If memory serves, neither of those games is all new code -- both are known to be based on the existing code for Tennis and PGA Golf (respectively).

from intellivisionlives.com:

 

Chip Shot: Super Pro Golf

 

"DEVELOPMENT HISTORY

With the success of the other enhanced versions of the early Intellivision sports titles, INTV Corp. contracted Realtime Associates to produce an enhanced version of the original PGA Golf cartridge. Realtime President Dave Warhol approached Steve Ettinger (Hover Force) about doing the programming, knowing that Steve is an avid golfer. Steve was interested, but he wanted to ignore the original version and design a new golf game for scratch. Dave agreed, and the result was a real labor of love by Steve."

 

So, it seems like at least Chip Shot: Super Pro Golf is all new code

 

Championship Tennis

 

in Intellivisionlives.com it's actually stated that it "Includes code from the previously released Tennis"



#115 Utopia OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:19 AM

Could you just stop and move on, because what you are doing right now pretending its a joke is no joke its bulling , That's for sure. Maybe you need to watch a bulling video.

Nah, All this friendly banter is  both educational and amusing.



#116 mr_me OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:44 AM

Regarding "first market", there are example usages in a snippet from the book "The Innovator's Guide to Growth: Putting Disruptive Innovation to Work" at https://books.google...market"&f=false.  You will also find different definition of the term "first market" in other contexts and even slight differences in the term within that book.  Other references are out there as well.

In that book they do use the terms "test market", "foothold market", and "first market" each with seperate meanings. Here's a couple of quotes from the book.

"the first market execution could be a test market, or a soft, localized launch"

"The first market was a tradional mass-market launch."

In that book a first market could be a test market or it could be a traditional mass-market launch. They also differentiate between a test market and a localized launch. So after the Keyboard Component 1980 Fresno test market; 1981 Seattle and New Orleans could have been more test markets but Mattel didn't see it that way. It was a localised launch. And the Keyboard Component was on the market until August 1982.

...
Championship Tennis

in Intellivisionlives.com it's actually stated that it "Includes code from the previously released Tennis"

I think this is a mistake at intellivisionlives.com. Ray Kaestner did take the original Tennis and update it, adding computer controlled players; but I don't think we have seen that version anywhere.

In this interview the Championship Tennis programmer, Patrick Aubrey, was asked if his game was started in the United States. The programmer said he programmed it entirely in France.

http://www.gamotek.f.../patrick-aubry/
"Le jeu a t-il été commencé aux USA ?"
"Non, je lai entièrement programmé à Nice"

If you play the games you can clearly see that WC Baseball, SP Football, Slam Dunk, Slap Shot, Mountain Madness are based on the original games, and that Chip Shot and Champonshiop Tennis are not.

Edited by mr_me, Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:17 AM.


#117 wolfy62 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:10 AM

125.



#118 Intymike OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:09 AM

are you talking about the Intv releases? AFAIK, they were initially sold at toy shops in Europe (or at least in Italy: I did buy Thunder Castle back in the day at my favourite toy shop in Leghorn, Tuscany). Then, they were sold by mail order from Telegames UK, Leicester, UK.
I believe the only game that has never been put for sale in Europe is Congo Bongo

 

 

You got in Italy stuff that where nowhere else to obtain.

In Germany even not all of the Mattel games were released. 4 of the 7 Activision games, 2 of the 13 Imagic games weren't released either.

And Telegames was totally unknown for me until the end of the 90s when I got Internet.



#119 JasonlikesINTV OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:14 AM

In case anyone wants to see a bulling video:
vFTw_M.gif

#120 thegoldenband OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:48 AM

So, it seems like at least Chip Shot: Super Pro Golf is all new code

 
Don't we see the old Golf title screen for a split second when it starts up, though? I thought that was cited as evidence at some point by someone knowledgeable...
 

I think this is a mistake at intellivisionlives.com. Ray Kaestner did take the original Tennis and update it, adding computer controlled players; but I don't think we have seen that version anywhere.

In this interview the Championship Tennis programmer, Patrick Aubrey, was asked if his game was started in the United States. The programmer said he programmed it entirely in France.

http://www.gamotek.f.../patrick-aubry/
"Le jeu a t-il été commencé aux USA ?"
"Non, je lai entièrement programmé à Nice"


Fair enough, I was basing my info on what was mentioned at the BSR site.
 

If you play the games you can clearly see that WC Baseball, SP Football, Slam Dunk, Slap Shot, Mountain Madness are based on the original games, and that Chip Shot and Champonshiop Tennis are not.

 
Haven't played Chip Shot too much (I actually preferred the original PGA Golf) but believe me, I've played Championship Tennis about as much as anyone out there. :)

#121 m-crew ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:51 PM

In case anyone wants to see a bulling video:
vFTw_M.gif


So Funny !!!
Got to luv those Saturday mornings BITD !!!

#122 the1hatman OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:49 PM

Could you just stop and move on, because what you are doing right now pretending its a joke is no joke its bulling , That's for sure. Maybe you need to watch a bulling video.

 

You cry about bullying and point the finger but no one here did anything of the sort. The fact that someone has a different take on a subject than you does not make them a bully.

 

You chose to quote my response to the initial post in this thread, despite later accusing me of starting that, which meant you wanted to engage in the discussion with me. At no time in any of my responses to you was I pandering, insensitive, mean spirited or disrespectful. As soon as you felt like you were out of replies you chose to play your usual victim card in an attempt to paint me as some sort of bad guy and then pout like a 3 year old. At this point, it's become an obvious pattern of yours to everyone here as evidenced by you stating "Love to hear everyone's views on this subject" then trying to slander others as bullies when their opinions do not match your own.

 

That's for sure. Maybe you need to grow up.

 

Cheers!



#123 m-crew ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:58 PM

You cry about bullying and point the finger but no one here did anything of the sort. The fact that someone has a different take on a subject than you does not make them a bully.
 
You chose to quote my response to the initial post in this thread, despite later accusing me of starting that, which meant you wanted to engage in the discussion with me. At no time in any of my responses to you was I pandering, insensitive, mean spirited or disrespectful. As soon as you felt like you were out of replies you chose to play your usual victim card in an attempt to paint me as some sort of bad guy and then pout like a 3 year old. At this point, it's become an obvious pattern of yours to everyone here as evidenced by you stating "Love to hear everyone's views on this subject" then trying to slander others as bullies when their opinions do not match your own.
 
That's for sure. Maybe you need to grow up.
 
Cheers!


What do you call this post? Bullying once again.. just keep pointing fingers, using insulting words once again. ... You could not just let it go.

I'm playing no card because what you are doing and keep doing say's it all..

You are really a Big Bully and the more you post the more it shows.

Please continue ...

Cheers

#124 the1hatman OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:09 PM

What do you call this post? Bullying once again.. just keep pointing fingers, using insulting words once again. ... You could not just let it go.

I'm playing no card because what you are doing and keep doing say's it all..

You are really a Big Bully and the more you post the more it shows.

Please continue ...

Cheers

 

Now you're just deflecting...  :)

 

But seriously, that made about as much sense as a soup sandwich. If you honestly feel you are being bullied just report the posts in which you feel meet your level of victim requirement and let Albert or a moderator rule on the matter. Otherwise stop trying to slander every person whose opinion you disagree with.



#125 m-crew ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:15 PM

Now you're just deflecting...  :)
 
But seriously, that made about as much sense as a soup sandwich. If you honestly feel you are being bullied just report the posts in which you feel meet your level of victim requirement and let Albert or a moderator rule on the matter. Otherwise stop trying to slander every person whose opinion you disagree with.


Just lets let it go,

"Otherwise stop trying to slander every person whose opinion you disagree with" This is slander in itself because it's not true,


Run to Albert, sure ill to mom and dad ... lol The only way to stop a bully is to stand up to them yourself.. lol

Edited by m-crew, Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:23 PM.





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