C64 - A reappraisal 2017

[Mclaneinc]

This is kind of a moot conversation anyway. Everyone knows that the VIC-20 is the best 8 bit out there. Affordable (at the time), successful in the marketplace, reliable, easy to program, huge library of games and was the starting point of many luminaries in the tech industry today.

 

Sure, the homebrew scene isn't as active as the C64 but it's still there and still producing the goods.

 

As Jeff Minter once said: "Viva Vic!".

 

Nowt wrong with a Vic20, had one myself, loved Omega Race on it and all the other stuff I had...

 

Wonder if Jeff released all his creations on the Vic20 that he used to show down at the Vic centre in Park Royal before he became big..The first C64 game I saw from him was a submarine shooter game in an early form.

[Bill Loguidice]

 

I'd read that book

 

It could even be done in roast form (or at least maybe roast and then followed by an explanation of the why/how). Here are some quick classic computer roasts:

Apple II:

- The Disk II is a wonderfully fast disk drive... I guess it's important to get to your purple and green game set to the sound of crickets as quickly as possible.

- Little known fact... All Apple II monitors were color, some just turned sickly green after taking a look at the color palette.

- One joystick port? Here's your keyboard player two! Good thing I hate my friends anyway. Especially the ones with good computers, like the Commodore 64!

Atari 8-bit:

Oh, you have a 320KB RAM expansion? Awesome... Enjoy your game made for all those 16KB Atari 400 users.

Commodore 64:

The Commodore 64 and 1541 disk drive is quite the combination. It's like the tortoise... and the tortoise.

[Mclaneinc]

LOL...Painful but true...Love it..

 

Atari ST

 

 

Because you could not afford an Amiga.

Or

Because your Atari friends would call you names if you brought the computer you really wanted.

 

 

(And yes, I do own an ST...Strange I know)

Edited February 17, 2018 by Mclaneinc

[TemplarXB]

The Commodore 128 was my first computer. A couple of years ago I tried to fire it up again and it was dead. I had the itch to play with an 80s computer again and after reading up on threads here at Atari Age, I bought an 800XL.

 

I find the C64 (which is how I used my 128 90% of the time) pretty comparable to the 800XL. I do find that in 2018, there seems to be more interesting resources for the Atari, between this site, the documents and software all curated at AtariMania, stores like Best still selling replacement parts and lots of interesting hardware expansions from guys like Lotharek.

For me it’s more about which system is more reliable and interesting to play around with in 2018 than in whatever minor hardware advantages each have over one another.

 

I’m glad I had my Commodore back in the mid to late 80’s though because everyone I knew had C64s or Apples and I never even saw an Atari computer. Lots of software swapping back then!

[Bill Loguidice]

The Commodore 128 was my first computer. A couple of years ago I tried to fire it up again and it was dead. I had the itch to play with an 80s computer again and after reading up on threads here at Atari Age, I bought an 800XL.

 

I find the C64 (which is how I used my 128 90% of the time) pretty comparable to the 800XL. I do find that in 2018, there seems to be more interesting resources for the Atari, between this site, the documents and software all curated at AtariMania, stores like Best still selling replacement parts and lots of interesting hardware expansions from guys like Lotharek.

For me it’s more about which system is more reliable and interesting to play around with in 2018 than in whatever minor hardware advantages each have over one another.

 

I’m glad I had my Commodore back in the mid to late 80’s though because everyone I knew had C64s or Apples and I never even saw an Atari computer. Lots of software swapping back then!

 

I personally don't find any lack of replacement parts (including stores that sell them) or new hardware creations for many vintage systems, including the C-64 and Apple II, and even some of the "lesser" systems like the CoCo. It's only when you get into the REALLY lesser known systems like the Sord M5, for instance, where I find you run into trouble with that kind of stuff. Even then it's amazing that even systems like that often at least have multi- or flash cartridges.

 

I absolutely agree though that the personalities of and how you interact with the specific communities do vary greatly. Some are more game-centric, some are more utility-centric, some are friendlier to newcomers, etc. As much as people dislike Facebook, I appreciate the fact that if I have a problem/question, there's all but guaranteed to be a group on there that can help get it resolved. With the classic forum approach (or mailing lists even), you'd have to track down an appropriate Web destination for your particular vintage system of interest and hope it's not sparsely populated. So, in that regard, I think whatever your vintage system of choice (for the most part), you do OK these days.

[Laner]

The Commodore 128 was my first computer. A couple of years ago I tried to fire it up again and it was dead. I had the itch to play with an 80s computer again and after reading up on threads here at Atari Age, I bought an 800XL.

 

I find the C64 (which is how I used my 128 90% of the time) pretty comparable to the 800XL. I do find that in 2018, there seems to be more interesting resources for the Atari, between this site, the documents and software all curated at AtariMania, stores like Best still selling replacement parts and lots of interesting hardware expansions from guys like Lotharek.

For me it’s more about which system is more reliable and interesting to play around with in 2018 than in whatever minor hardware advantages each have over one another.

 

On the (C64) flipside, you have the Lemon64 forums, GameBase64 and the CSDB for documentation and software, the 1541 Ultimate and SD2IEC for drive replacements, the Reloaded Mk2 and Ultimate 2 motherboard updates/replacements, the easyflash cart, Ray Carlsen power supplies, numerous SID and PLA replacements, JiffyDOS, Lumafix, etc.

 

Both ecosystems seem to be well represented in {current year} - mainly depends on where you choose to focus.

[Stefan Both]

[+MrFish]

Why is the bearded guy holding a guitar? Shouldn't he be holding an XEP-80 (or some similar, imperfect device)?

 

From another angle, he could also have an XG-1 Lighgun in his hand.

Edited February 17, 2018 by MrFish

[+Philsan]

Very interesting thread, I want to give my two cents.

 

I grew up with an Atari 2600, then a Commodore 64 and an Amiga 1000 afterwards.

 

I buy both physical and digital releases for the 2600 and C64, and I would say they have a healthy homebrew production, where you see no less than 20 something new games or hacks per year, with quite a number of those of “commercial” quality and some gems like Draconius on the 2600.

 

I recently bought an A800XL and have it modded with 1mb ram and dual SID, fixed composite output and SIO2SD. I wanted to try those Activision and Lucas games I love on the C64 that I had heard the Atari version is the best. And also Alternate Reality with music I found amazing being able to upgrade the memory, almost nobody uses hardware improvements in C64 besides selectable kernels.

 

So I got hold of a games collection and, well, I enjoyed Dropzone, Rescue on Fractalus, Koronis Rift, ... but didn't find many "new" releases I truly enjoyed. It took me a while to find some european website with homebrew releases, some ports like Gunfright or Skool Daze but no recent release with quality similar to the commercial games of the 80s, something I can find for the 2600 and C64.

 

While the C64 nowadays has a “second life” in terms of gaming, with programmers pushing the machine (the stock machine) to the limits with games like Galencia and Sams Journey and successful campaigns in Kickstarter like Galencia Khaos Sphere or Unknown Realms, the A8, with outstanding hardware capabilities, feels like a less interesting platform.

 

Then again, maybe I'm terribly lame searching homebrew for Atari 8 bit

KazKompo best game of the year contest is a good starting point to find out best homebrews:

2016: 1. Laura, 2. Pang, 3. AtariBlast! (4. Dimo's Dungeon, 5. Manic Miner)

2015: 1. Duszpasterz Jan Rzygon / Priest John McPuke, 2. Bomber, 3. Dimo's Quest Lurch Edition (4. The Great Escape)

2014: 1. RGB, 2. Treasure Island Dizzy , 3. The Great Return of the Penguins

2013: 1. Assembloids XE, 2. Deathchase XE, 3. The Hunt

2012: 1. Ridiculous Reality, 2. Line Runner, 3. Callisto

2011: 1. Space Harrier, 2. Marbled, 3. Mighty Jill Off

2010: 1. His Dark Majesty, 2. Ocean Detox, 3. Dr. Mario

2009: 1. Kolony 2106, 2. Nightshade, 3. Ghastly Night (5. Tempest Xtreem)

2008: 1. Bomb Jack, 2. Hobgoblin, 3. Knight Lore

2007: 1. Yoomp!, 2. Crownland, 3. Mindblast

2006: 1. Flowers Mania, 2. Klony, 3. Nibbly

[_The Doctor__]

gATARI2600? Although to be honest the Atari machines have always been in the music as well as movie industries for audio, on the video side at the end, Amiga (still basically following that venerable 800 line)

 

don't miss the second tune, the end of the first can lose ya'

Edited February 17, 2018 by _The Doctor__

[Keatah]

I wish folks would view stuff like me and others, go where the goodness is, don't have favourites that bind you only to them, have favourites that you enjoy and others that you also enjoy. I like most have moved through so many computers and consoles over the years, almost all I have really enjoyed and I don't give a rats ass about who makes them, as long as the goodness is there then I'm in. I've had great fun on both the Atari and C64 (just in case that's bias, I've had great fun on the C64 and Atari), mine didn't break down and I'm grateful for that, Xbox's broke down and I had a RROD one but I didn't write them off because of that.

 

When getting bored of one platform, move to the next, then come back. And round and round it goes. Nothing says you have to be loyal to one brand. These days we all can afford several classic computers. And the enhancements available make them easier than ever to use.

 

Having explored and played with all the classics it's only natural to find interest in other similar machines. Maybe I'll have an A500 or TRS-80 Model III sitting on my desk next year. Who knows?

 

Apple II will always be my base system, because I had it when I was a kid. All other machines are welcome to visit.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Keatah

[Mclaneinc]

That's the spirit....Never understood the way people get so into brand loyalty, they miss so much of the good stuff out there just by sitting on their hands, this is made even worse when they do this because they don't want to seem 'not in the right crowd'.

 

Daftness...Just a shame we get forced in to obtaining certain brands to get certain titles but that's business...

[carlsson]

I do believe that when people claim the C64 has very little homebrew in terms of hardware and software, those people don't know where to look. I could easily say the same thing about Atari 8-bit, if I weren't monitoring this forum.

[Keatah]

I find my direction in the hobby is turning more toward software. The variety, the variants, the versions. All the flavors.. Letting the software be a guide necessitates a practical working knowledge and interest in many platforms. Not all games are available on all platforms. And certain games are literal technological tour'de'force showcases for certain platforms. On NES, Gyruss suXors to the max. It doesn't even exist on the Apple II. Yet it is very good on the C64. I don't recall I'Robot ever being done on a home console either. So!

 

If I want to play..

Raid on Bungeling Bay, it'll happen on a C64.

BallBlazer or Defender, it'll happen on Atari 400/800

Bandits and StarBlazer - Apple II

Technical utilities and disk drive experiments - again, Apple II

Modem & telecom stuff - Apple II and PC

16-bit flight simulators and early Sim City games - on the Amiga and PC

Gyruss? Back to the C64 or the arcade

Lunar Lander games? anywhere I can find them!

Shamus, Star Raiders, on the Atari 400/800

F/A-18 Interceptor - Amiga

Doom & Raptor & early 3D games - PC.

Xevious? Now were into the PlayStation 1.

RPG and text adventure - Apple II

Art, graphics, paint, Amiga + PC

Tempest, Assault, I'Robot (and many arcade games), the obvious choice is M.A.M.E.

Anything fast-action? VCS.. no doubt about that.

And more!

 

The list is really endless. No one platform excels at everything. Having taken the emulation route, learning the ins and outs and idiosyncrasies of each, fine-tuning them, and setting them up just right.. has made exploring the software so much more enjoyable and practical. If I was to have real hardware I'd end up in a hoarder's situation. And having done that at one time I'd rather not do it again.

[emkay]

If I had to chose...

 

Ballblazer on the Atari

Bandits .... Atari

Dropzone ... Atari

Boulder Dash...Atari

Master of the Lamps ... Atari

Any Jump&Run ...Amiga

Any Turrican... Amiga

Gyruss... Atari (C64 looks better but plays crap)

 

What to say ? Every game that is better on the C64 than on the A8 is also better on the Amiga...

And, listen to some nice SID tunes, doesn't really mean to buy a C64.

Edited February 17, 2018 by emkay

[GlowingGhoul]

:

4. Homebrew: The c64 has a way more active homebrew community, due to it being more popular. The Atari could do the same thing, but sadly, we just don't have the fanbase that the c64 does. We do get some great games occasionally though.

 

 

No it doesn't, this is completely inaccurate. The range of homebrew creations for the C64, particularly hardware, pales in comparison to the Atari 8-bits. There's no comparison. And the gulf is getting wider every year as new hardware for the c64 is coming at a slower and slower pace. I am deeply involved with both scenes, and buy nearly everything that comes out for both.

Edited February 17, 2018 by GlowingGhoul

[emkay]

The range of homebrew creations for the C64, particularly hardware, pales in comparison to the Atari 8-bits. There's no comparison. And the gulf is getting wider every year as new hardware for the c64 is coming at a slower and slower pace.

 

If that only pointed to the missing software on the A8

[Heaven/TQA]

Gyruss on A8 please

[GlowingGhoul]

I do believe that when people claim the C64 has very little homebrew in terms of hardware and software, those people don't know where to look. I could easily say the same thing about Atari 8-bit, if I weren't monitoring this forum.

 

I have significant collections of both systems. I have everything iComp makes for the C64. Homebrew hardware is much more common in the Atari 8-bit scene than it is on the C64.

 

Just in the last year or so we've had a plug in accelerator(!), an OPEN SOURCE replacement motherboard, a revival of the 1027 printer head, video upgrades, and more. There are no homebrew accelerators for the C64, even though commercial ones existed when the C64 was still available. The only video upgrade is the Chameleon's VGA out which is marginal(and expensive, and unavailable). SID and PLA replacements are acts of desperation for components that fail routinely on the C64, not upgrades.

 

The perception that the C64 'must' have more homebrew hardware is just an assumption. The C64 had a far larger user base, but the A8 seems to have a much more active one all these decades later.

[zylon]

^Agreed. If I were getting into one of these 2 systems today and had to choose, without having my past experience, I'd go with A8. I've found lots of software solutions and hardware replacement, not to mention easily available parts. Also much easier to repair in most cases. I've purchased flashcarts, CF card readers, & SIO2PC setup. All purchased easily and did not take months to get.

On the C64 front, I've also acquired a couple of the SD versions of a mini-1541. Costs were about the same as A8 stuff, but took months, in one case a year to get or even get responded to. Neither improved performance at all over original C= hardware, and even made it worse in a few areas.

I love my C64 and play it ever still, but A8 has a much longer and brighter future. The tortoise didn't win this time around.

[Keatah]

Accelerators

Hardware that increases the speed and performance of a classic computer is often a mixed bag. I mean I don't dislike accelerators or anything, but I believe they're overrated.

 

They have a nasty side effect of making some games too fast. They're good for science and technical programming and utilities and things that don't have to have objects moving at a specified speed - but, games! Few games benefit realistically from a slight bump in MHz, but otherwise they're simply too fast. The play mechanics change or simply become unplayable. Games that are "genlocked" to operate at a set FPS benefit much more, like Ballblazer. On the Atari, give it a 7MHz 6502 and it will become buttery smooth without the gameplay going haywire.

 

Or things like RPG and Text Adventures, parsing is faster. And then there's productivity programs. These almost always gain speed in a practical manner.

 

---

 

Video boards and mods

I don't get excited by hardware that increases the resolution or color palette of a system. Reason being is it's niche, almost nothing is written for such add-ons. What..you get a few demos from the board's creator and that's it. Look at the boards made for the Apple II and TRS-80 Model III. Nothing uses them except what came with them.

 

On the other hand, video boards that "preserve" the native palettes and resolutions are just fine. Think traditional S-Video, Composite, RGB Component, or VGA/HDMI mods. There seems to be a vid mod for every console and computer out there. These don't improve performance, they improve functionality and versatility. They provide an additional interface. And all software benefits.

 

---

 

Ram

I also don't get excited by memory boards that have to have the mainboard modified. Anything beyond a jumper or signal wire instantly screams CUSTOM to me and then we're right back to where sprite and videoboards are. Niche. Boards that adhere to (or use) the OEM specification are ok and welcomed. Software is written to recognize the spec. Think AppleWorks or ProDOS. They popular and anything that uses their framework will transparently take advantage of the added memory - whether it be 16K or 16Meg.

 

But it's alright if a new memory standard does indeed develop a following, and begins working with past and current software because of community support. I understand this is happening with Atari 8-bit U1MB. And FA-18 for video on the Ti-99/4A. So..

 

Again, I use an Apple II example. The Apple II was designed without the idea of supporting a disk drive. But that rapidly changed. It got the hardware quickly because of market pressure. And DOS was loaded into memory. Very seamless and the whole package felt very integrated as if it were part of the machine to begin with.

 

---

 

Rom

There's a lot of good to say about this. Every classic rig right up to the PC/MAC had some sort of ROM upgrade. Whether it be factory published BASIC, or on-board firmware, or cartridge. The list truly is extensive. ROM expansion has always been done carefully and seemingly with some level of backward compatibility in mind. Also ROM expansions seem to take care and not mess with existing operation. In other words they're transparent when needed or can be disabled.

 

This happened with the PROMS on the early Disk II interface cards for Apple II. The first interface boards read disks that had only 13 sectors. Later cards could read 16 sector'd disks. The advantage was extra storage space. And through a ram-based software patch, the new 16-sector cards could be made backward compatible with the old 13-sector cards.

 

New character sets. New BASIC commands - like in Level I and Level II BASIC for TRS-80. Or Integer vs Applesoft.. In this latter case, again, compatibility was ensured through ram-based software additions to manage (or manhandle!) the new upgrade so it worked with old stuff.

 

And then there is Happy for the Atari 8-bitters and Epyx FastLoad cart for the C64. Rom upgrades are across-the-board awesome.

 

---

 

Disk

This is a big stink today! Everybody loved the instant and random access of the disk drive when it first burst onto the consumer market in the 70's. Floppys were everywhere! Fast forward to 2018. Seems that more and more people are getting frustrated and downright hostile to the 5.25 disk. Understandable, it's a mechanical device that needs cleaning and maintenance in order to operate reliably.

 

Everyone has gotten (or wants) some sort of solid state drive today, Flash, USB, CF, whatever. It's great to see how rapidly these "everdrives" have evolved and how smoothly they integrate with the host. For any platform. If any one product had made vintage computing more practical and accessible it would be these.

 

But I do recommend keeping a real floppy drive and disks around for the nostalgia, the good old times, and for the odd-ball corner case. In the case of the Apple II, a whole sub-culture of WaReZ crackers and distributors arose around the challenge of undoing copy protection. Oftentimes the challenge to remove the protection was more exciting and rewarding than playing the game itself. It used to be joked about that every Apple II game came with a 2nd hidden game. True enough. The 2nd game was removing that protection.

[Heaven/TQA]

btw. regarding my A8 gear... what I felt recently in love are those Atari game carts... esp. the "old" brown ones... I even started to buy few.... (that was the time when I discovered how the retro prices on ebay raised compare to 12 months ago...).... still dreaming of having MULE on Disk

[Mclaneinc]

I do believe that when people claim the C64 has very little homebrew in terms of hardware and software, those people don't know where to look. I could easily say the same thing about Atari 8-bit, if I weren't monitoring this forum.

 

There's bucket loads of it (C64 Homebrew) and mostly its daily...Ok there's cracks of old games too but there's new stuff all the time..(If this is about hardware only then its not as much as the Atari but there is some stuff)

Edited February 18, 2018 by Mclaneinc

[H.E.R.O.]

Look, I KNOW the 1541 was slow (the 1571 being much better). Like I said in a earlier post, some games were a chore to wait for but the Epyx Fast Load cartridge really did help (to a lesser extent Access Software's Mach V cartridge which, annoyingly so, did not work on Epyx games!). Six minutes for Raid On Bungeling Bay turned into sixty seconds.

[Mclaneinc]

I don't get the moaning re the C64 1541, yes it was slow but there were alternatives, just look at the Atari cassette system, slow as hell and no non hardware addition fastloaders (afaik)..

 

Does it all really matter?

 

If you don't like a machine then don't use it....I love my Atari and I really like loads of other machines, I could pick holes in them but what is the fun in that..Just play, code, dev, util etc etc...Just enjoy..