Best solution for playing NTSC games in Europe

[anpass]

Dear all,

 

I bought an Atari 2600 Jr. PAL with RGB MOD. I have both an old Sony CRT Combi and a new LCD TV.

The games I own are mostly NTSC.

 

 

I already learned (thanks to pevious topics on this forum) that:

 

- NTSC games on PAL system are playable altough they have image issues, expecially the bothering screwed up palette (green turns into blue, blue turns into pink and so on...)

- any RGB MOD bypass the PAL/NTSC RCF signal, turning the video signal into a "region-free" output.

 

My wish is to play NTSC games -at least- with proper color palette.

Actually I found out only two possible solutions:

 

1. The heavy RGB MOD (http://etim.net.au/2600rgb/): this RGB mod is more powerful than the one I have and thus allows any 2600 system to change the palette by pressing a switch and to play any PAL/NTSC games.

 

2. To buy a real NTSC 2600/VCS system (maybe the 6S or 4S woody one) with RGB MOD (if the mod is not already embedded, I will follow one of the many tutorial about RGB MOD)

 

First I kindly ask you if I understood clearly those solutions, according to your experience (I am rather new to this kind of retrogaming).

 

any comments of which solution is the best? I mean in terms of availability - price - final video result, once getting the proper palette colors.

 

Or is there another cheap solution that I ignore?

NTSC/RGB converter are not working right?

 

I need also to make sure that I can use an American system with my universal Power Adapter I'm using for my system.

They both need 9V with center tip positive right?

 

Really many thanks. Andrea

[fiddlepaddle]

Well, for a really cheap solution, you can emulate most 2600 games very easily on many types of devices... or buy an Atari Flashback Portable with SD card slot.

[+x=usr(1536)]

One possibility: there used to be VCRs on the market that would play back NTSC videotapes on PAL TVs without requiring any intermediate conversion. You might be able to find one and use that; if it works, the advantage would be that you could potentially use it with multiple NTSC devices should you end up buying others.

 

There is a caveat to that, though: some VCRs would only convert playback from tape, not signals received via RF or SCART, S-Video, etc. To figure out which models do and don't do that, you'll need to do some research.

 

A number of modern LCD televisions will also play back NTSC (or PAL, or SECAM) natively. However, you'll need to do your own research on that as well since I don't have specific model numbers to hand. However, the cheaper ones generally seem to be more likely to do this than more expensive ones.

[anpass]

Well, for a really cheap solution, you can emulate most 2600 games very easily on many types of devices... or buy an Atari Flashback Portable with SD card slot.

 

Thank you for the suggestion, but I bought the real 2600jr in order to have a true old school experience. Apart that NTSC games have wrong palette.

I already have Stella.

[anpass]

Thank you for the reply.

One possibility: there used to be VCRs on the market that would play back NTSC videotapes on PAL TVs without requiring any intermediate conversion. You might be able to find one and use that; if it works, the advantage would be that you could potentially use it with multiple NTSC devices should you end up buying others.

 

There is a caveat to that, though: some VCRs would only convert playback from tape, not signals received via RF or SCART, S-Video, etc. To figure out which models do and don't do that, you'll need to do some research.

 

A number of modern LCD televisions will also play back NTSC (or PAL, or SECAM) natively. However, you'll need to do your own research on that as well since I don't have specific model numbers to hand. However, the cheaper ones generally seem to be more likely to do this than more expensive ones.

Yeah I remember those kind of VCR (I saw one when I worked in a local televesion). But I am afraid that this solution (a VCR "bypass"/converter) can work only if the signal is a true NTSC one, i.e., coming from a real NTSC console with RF out.

 

Do you think that once RGB modding an atari 2600 you will somehow "neutralize" the NTSC/PAL signal? I mean that RGB output should give to any TV (CRT or LCD) a different coded signal than the real NTSC/PAL one coming, i.e., from the original RF output. Am I right with this statement?This step is really relevant for me to foreshadow a solution of my problem...

 

 

What about buying a real NTSC atari in U.S. and plugging it with this tool https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlxH_PoX2qU to the LCD RF input (or eventually mounting the RGB mod)?

Can it be consider as the natural solution for playing NTSC games here in Europe?

 

I really thank you in advance for any advice.

[Mayhem]

I have an S-video modded 7800 NTSC... so I can play 2600 and 7800 NTSC games here

[anpass]

I have an S-video modded 7800 NTSC... so I can play 2600 and 7800 NTSC games here

thanks! Are you plugged on a new LCD?

[atariactionman]

I use a Sears video arcade NTSC which has been composite modded. And I use my PAL 2600 power adapter with it. I have no problems playing my NTSC cartridges here in the UK and the colours are much better. It also allows me to play games that were never released here.

I have a Harmony Cartridge with both PAL and NTSC folders which I can swap between machines. Atari 2600 has never been better.

I play them on a LG plasma TV with no problems.

[Mayhem]

thanks! Are you plugged on a new LCD?

 

New...? Well, not quite, it's a 8-9 year old Sony Bravia, but everything is in colour heh.

[anpass]

Thank you for the suggestions!

 

The Harmony Cartridge sounds cool, but it's rather hard to find...

 

I think I will go with a NTSC VCS with RGB/S-Video Mod: I asked to some eBay seller. It may be possible to play NTSC games with his "natural" way...

As soon as I will find a good one for a good price I will place the order.

 

Do you know someone that can sell me a 6S or 4S woody NTSC VCS with RGB/S-Video Mod?

Many thanks. Andrea

[youxia]

I'm considering getting a 2600, but I'm in Europe and would like to run NTSC games (but without any console modding). I have a capable multisystem CRT TV. My question is, are the consoles themselves regional? Meaning, if I buy a local console and stick a flashcart in it, will it be able to display NTSC properly, or will it always default to PAL?

[john_q_atari]

Games (cartridges) are written with PAL or NTSC video in mind. Consoles are clocked internally to display using NTSC or PAL video standards. Displays are normally setup to display a PAL or NTSC signal. It sounds like your display is designed to accept and properly display either NTSC or PAL? If so you need an NTSC console and an NTSC version game cartridge.

[john_q_atari]

Someone else can confirm @batari but I think an NTSC rom on an NTSC console plugged into your NTSC capable display should work.

[youxia]

50 minutes ago, john_q_atari said:

I think an NTSC rom on an NTSC console plugged into your NTSC capable display should work.

That figures But NTSC consoles are sparse in my neck of the woods, therefore my question is if it's possible with a European console and an NTSC rom running from a flashcart.

[+MrZarniwoop]

8 minutes ago, youxia said:

That figures But NTSC consoles are sparse in my neck of the woods, therefore my question is if it's possible with a European console and an NTSC rom running from a flashcart.

A 2600 PAL console can run NTSC games, generating an NTSC video signal, but the color palette will be all wrong. If attached to a display that can handle the NTSC signal, it'll work but unfortunately will look really weird due to the color palette being different. 

 

I assume the same is true of a SECAM console but I've never actually used one.

 

The 2600RGB noted at the top of the thread has a button where the RGB output can use NTSC/PAL/SECAM color palettes on the fly, so if a PAL console loads an NTSC game the RGB video can still use NTSC colors. It actually does a decent job of auto-detecting the required palette most of the time, effectively making a region-free 2600 if you stick with the RGB video.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

12 minutes ago, MrZarniwoop said:

The 2600RGB noted at the top of the thread has a button where the RGB output can use NTSC/PAL/SECAM color palettes on the fly, so if a PAL console loads an NTSC game the RGB video can still use NTSC colors. It actually does a decent job of auto-detecting the required palette most of the time, effectively making a region-free 2600 if you stick with the RGB video.

This is true and quite a neat feature of the RGB upgrade from Tim. However, by default it will only allow for selecting between 3 palettes for what I assume is the console type it is installed in. I say this because as you might not be aware, the TIA in the console is removed and placed into the RGB board. Since PAL and NTSC TIA do differ, I suspect the detection is based on the TIA you have in the RGB board. As a result, if it is an NTSC system, it will default to only allowing those three palette options. So to have the full selection of palettes from all regions regardless of the game being used, you have to install the second function button to disable the 3 palette only mode it seems to ship in currently. Similar to the built in pause function that is also disabled by default on the RGB board.

 

[youxia]

That's a bummer about the palettes, because I'd like to keep it all as authentic as possible. Guess I'll have to keep my eye out for a real NTSC unit then.

[Avenger75]

As said, due to the fact that PAL and NTSC TIA deliver a differents palettes,  without heavy RGB mod applied that replace the TIA ouput,    only a NTSC unit will give you the authentic NTSC palette signal in RF or composite or Scart cable.

 

Then you need the TV that accept the NTSC signal.

 

NTSC TV are not common in Europe.

If you find a tri standard TV, like Sony Trinitron, that can handle 60hz ntsc signal you will get the right image.

If your TV is not accepting 60 HZ Ntsc input,  then a possibility  is to use, as said, an old VCR that is able to display Ntsc signal.

 

I'm using a Ntsc 2600  6 switch with an old sony trinitron CRT, and the result is great.

 

[juansolo]

On 2/21/2018 at 11:32 AM, anpass said:

Do you think that once RGB modding an atari 2600 you will somehow "neutralize" the NTSC/PAL signal? I mean that RGB output should give to any TV (CRT or LCD) a different coded signal than the real NTSC/PAL one coming, i.e., from the original RF output. Am I right with this statement?This step is really relevant for me to foreshadow a solution of my problem...

This is where it gets a little complicated...

 

RGB is not encoded with NTSC or PAL information. It is just RGB, either 50hz or 60hz in this instance. You don't require an NTSC TV to play 60hz RGB, just one that can handle 60hz RGB (most of them)

If you're outputting RF, Composite Video or S-Video they are outputting either PAL or NTSC and will require the TV to support them.

 

Adding additional complication to this is as you rightly said, the PAL and NTSC 2600's have different colour palettes, that won't change unless your RGB mod has switchable palettes (The eTim board does).

 

Is your RGB 2600 a French one by any chance, or is it one that has a different mod? If it is a French one I'd assume that it's something similar to the 7800 in that Atari slapped on a S-Video to RGB encoder interanally. This will be far from optimal and will likely be locked to dealing with PAL and it's palette.

 

Leaving you a couple of options. The one that does everything is grabbing a PAL 6 switch (because it's the easiest to mod) and put the eTim RGB mod in it. Afterwards it's a true mulistandard machine. You can set the palette to auto, or you can switch it manually with a button. Which I do as it tends to work better with multicarts. All you'd need display-wise is a TV with an RGB in (as I say, most will handle 50 and 60hz)

 

There's no real point in RGB modding an NTSC machine as you'd end up with the same abilities as a PAL RGB machine, but with a tonne more cost getting the machine into Europe.

 

Grabbing an NTSC machine is more awkward due to how much it ends up costing to get it into Europe, but you could still maybe snag a cheap one. Now likely, as you're in PAL land you won't have a TV with an NTSC tuner so RF is straight out of the window, so you'll have to mod it. A UAV is probably the best, sensibly priced option (about €40) and will give both composite and s-video out. The latter being nicer. But your TV will need to be able to handle that. This can be very hit and miss as though we don't have NTSC analogue tuners, some TVs can handle NTSC over composite and S-Video. It's just not usually advertised one way or the other. I've got a Sony CRT that of handles my RGB modded 2600 no problem, but my UAV equipped 7800 via S-video doesn't work for example. Whereas I've other Sony sets that work just fine...