Heaven/TQA Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 Take those 1-2 PMs randomly filled with noise as an example and put them on the edges of the track and voila... I always liked Master of the lamps as it works with dynamic physics (sort of) and only using PMs except for the player which are chars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 - We can get more colors - via DLIs. Since we have 8 lumas, we really only need 8 DLIs. That's 8*125 = 1,000c less per frame. How many color changes are easy during DLI ? 3 or 4 ? I forgot now. - I will gladly sacrifice 1,000c and go down to 24,186 - 1,000 = 23,186c (available per frame, even though at 20 fps, that's 3,000c lost on more colors) knowing we get the depth-based shading (e.g. fog) DLIs won'T enhance the colors per scanline. - How about using PMGs for something else ? Say an enemy or a powerup/item ? How about using DLI for additional colors of objects that were on different vertical positions? It really seems that all discussions about "how to make programs, games, or demos" on the Atari the best way end up in "I should write them myself" . Really ALL discussion is useless. Not only in the graphical part , but also in the sound part. So, after a cloning device has been developed, I recommend my clones to write software for the Atari ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 DLIs won'T enhance the colors per scanline. How about using DLI for additional colors of objects that were on different vertical positions? It really seems that all discussions about "how to make programs, games, or demos" on the Atari the best way end up in "I should write them myself" . Really ALL discussion is useless. Not only in the graphical part , but also in the sound part. So, after a cloning device has been developed, I recommend my clones to write software for the Atari ... YeAh.... but clones are clones... as you are no coder your clones will not write it either... 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 YeAh.... but clones are clones... as you are no coder your clones will not write it either... Coding isn't the problem. It's all about logics. But time is the problem , as a day only has 24 hours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 YeAh.... but clones are clones... as you are no coder your clones will not write it either... Hahaha... LOL 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 DLIs won'T enhance the colors per scanline. How about using DLI for additional colors of objects that were on different vertical positions? It really seems that all discussions about "how to make programs, games, or demos" on the Atari the best way end up in "I should write them myself" . Really ALL discussion is useless. Not only in the graphical part , but also in the sound part. So, after a cloning device has been developed, I recommend my clones to write software for the Atari ... But the difference is that you only have theories. And when we attempt to explain to you that it doesn't really work that way, you just throw your arms and leave. I gotta say, I admire Heaven's patience when he explains stuff to you YeAh.... but clones are clones... as you are no coder your clones will not write it either... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 But the difference is that you only have theories. And when we attempt to explain to you that it doesn't really work that way, you just throw your arms and leave. It exactly doesn't work YOUR way, as you seem to know nothing about the Atari but some theories. I only didn't write something about it, because you had been so keen in your theories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 (edited) It exactly doesn't work YOUR way, as you seem to know nothing about the Atari but some theories. I only didn't write something about it, because you had been so keen in your theories. I almost spoke too soon when I wanted to say that Heaven just made a quote of the month So, please, entertain me, which theories are those ? The ones where I keep refactoring my 6502 3D engine code ? Or the ones where I wrote a full-blown assembler editor & compiler in hexa opcodes from within Atmas II ? 'Cause that one was truly one helluva theory I'm listening Edited March 20, 2018 by VladR 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 I almost spoke too soon when I wanted to say that Heaven just made a quote of the month So, please, entertain me, which theories are those ? The ones where I keep refactoring my 6502 3D engine code ? Or the ones where I wrote a full-blown assembler editor & compiler in hexa opcodes from within Atmas II ? 'Cause that one was truly one helluva theory I'm listening Endless cycle calculations without any result? Not using the Atari's hardware for optimizations? Laugh, if you like. You know, the jester always has to laugh to amuse the court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irgendwer Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 But time is the problem , as a day only has 24 hours Come on, you had the time to write nearly 9,200 posts - writing/talking seems to be easier than doing/coding... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 Endless cycle calculations without any result? Not using the Atari's hardware for optimizations? Now I could be wrong, but I happen to believe that my current Visual Studio project combining C with 6502 Asm (via macros), while emulating Antic's gfx modes (via DirectX/C++) is much closer to an actual Atari "result" than your theories... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 Not using the Atari's hardware for optimizations? What's the point of wasting effort on that when I'm still very far from the stage when I wouldn't be able to do further optimizations just to the 6502 code (even if I tried) ? Every single pipeline stage has 1-3 notes on how to improve the performance further (and some stages already went through 5-6 versions, each one being slightly-to-significantly faster than the previous one). Example : today I implemented the new version of clip-space 3D transform (that I already had working in C for quite a while) and while previous version took 179 cycles per vertex (and ate 16 KB in Z-table), this one takes just 132 cycles per vertex and consumes just 8 KB (which makes me really happy, as this will allow me to not require 130 XE for plenty demos). And I'm pretty sure I could bring it down even further, if I wanted. But why ? On my StuntCarRacer test dataset (4 quads, 10 vertices) - don't confuse with StunRunner dataset (screenshot few posts above), it takes just 1,320 cycles per rendered frame (for the visible 3d mesh) - which is ~5% of frame time (good enough for me). But, if you can think of an "Atari" HW feature that would make this stage even faster, please - by all means - I'm listening. Endless cycle calculations without any result? Result ? Alright, here's what I did for Atari today: - ported the clip-space 3D camera transform pipeline stage (from C to 6502 ASM) and 2 dependent ones: - world-space translation pipeline stage (from C to 6502 ASM) - line creation pipeline stage (from C to 6502 ASM) emkay, Have you done anything for Atari today ? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zap! Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 I'd order it if it ever came out for the Atari. Saw a review last night by The 8-Bit Guy. Looks fun. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaDDuck Posted August 28, 2018 Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 It is fun!! Like a cross between Mario 2 and Mario 3 with a dash of Yoshi thrown in for good measure! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwilove Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 I think Sam's Journey was designed for the C-64 hardware. My guess would be - to do one suited for the Atari 8-bit hardware - and run with a game with that. Wait.... isn't Crownland - kinda like that? Maybe someone could hack Crownland so that it's more player friendly - a better control system? And that will do in the meantime - until someone does the next promising A8 platform game. Sorry - but Dizzy doesn't do it for me.... Harvey 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 (edited) I think the way questions like this should be handled is to answer it totally directly, could the Atari mimic what you see on the screen (or better) so you had the same game with very very little missing.. Here I'd say no because its been written to make maximum use of the C64 hardware. I'm sure something could be done 'like' it but that wasn't the question and if we address it as that question then answering with the suggested criteria then that saves a lot of bickering.. Well except Emkay who has a 'Bicker Now' button jammed in the on position Making a game 'like it' will almost always draw criticism and in house bickering re what the perception is of what a machine might be able to do and what it actually can do.. Anyway, I own Sam on the C64 (Digital version) and it plays lovely on my breadbin.....There's lots of games 'like' a certain game but rarely are they as good as that game..I detest some of the early C64 ports from say the Atari, they were imho better by far on the Atari. Critiquing of games across platforms is always difficult, you must always try and look at it from the machine you are seeing the game on, on my ports to the C64 mention, I try and think IF they could have been better on that machine and I felt yes, they are just poor ports that drop below the standards of both machines. Sadly you get some folks who look at the game and not the hardware its on so make comments about say an Oric game being awful but you find out they are comparing to seeing the arcade version or whatever but the truth is some of the time that the Oric version for that machine is BLOODY good....for an Oric's tech spec.. Edited August 28, 2018 by Mclaneinc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 (edited) .... along time has passed.... Well except Emkay who has a 'Bicker Now' button jammed in the on position Wouldn't it be better to close such threads immediately? Isn't it a kind of provocation, to ask , if a game like Sam's Journey is possible on the Atari, while it used exactly what the C64 has to offer best? Mixed with the fact that people don't want optimized software for the Atari Added by the problem that a PAL Atari can do stuff, the NTSC Atari cannot do... and the NTSC Atari isn't capable of what the PAL Atari is capable of? Have you checked the latest programs? People claim , they can do C64 games, while on the other hand new games look like from 1979. And it's just because they still try to resemble C64 look. Edited August 28, 2018 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Well if by "like it" you mean platform game with cute gfx and lot's of different levels with innovative game play not seen before on A8 - then you're in for a treat I know of couple platform games in development currently and one of them is on my screen right now. Level one almost complete, already looking better than games from 1979 ps. Won't come out this year for sure.... 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 (edited) as always, if optimized and written for NTSC there is little to no difference to the PAL versions of things... except when using a pal 60 modified unit... the code run is shorter but their are more of them in a given period of time on ntsc/whereas on pal the code run is longer but has less of them in a given time period... it's a wash.. but you have to optimize for each one. Edited August 28, 2018 by _The Doctor__ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 I know of couple platform games in development currently and one of them is on my screen right now. Level one almost complete, already looking better than games from 1979 ps. Won't come out this year for sure.... See the real "treat" . A game engine that runs "Level One" doesn't necessarily include the option for harder levels with more moving objects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 But since we don't know the complexity of the level one engine or what is able to be moved already it does not mean the ability isn't already there.. With these disk drive things it possible to keep replacing game engines per level in game..Intensive and a massive bit of work by a dev but not impossible.. Not every one works on the basis that the simply gets harder by throwing more at the screen, variation works too.. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 Wouldn't it be better to close such threads immediately? Isn't it a kind of provocation, to ask , if a game like Sam's Journey is possible on the Atari, while it used exactly what the C64 has to offer best? If someone who doesn't understand the intricacies of the two platforms in question asks because they want to know then no, that's not provocation. Not every one works on the basis that the simply gets harder by throwing more at the screen, variation works too.. Almost every game I enjoy playing does things like make the environment more challenging over time by increasing the gaps over deadly pits, constricting the player movement more as things progress or adding timed elements like moving doors to dodge between. Look at Prince Of Persia or Impossible Mission for example - the former because it's in my head right now, having played the BBC Master version recently - which are both considered to be classics but don't hammer the player with swarms of enemies; the bulk of the challenge comes from precise manoeuvering around the platforms. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 (edited) You have to forgive Emkay, he could find something to argue about in a bowl of fluffy kittens....I love an enquiring mind, to challenge what is considered a 'norm' can lead to great knowledge and breakthroughs AND then there's Emkay But he's a very productive guy in many other departments and does make sense and argue rightly for most stuff, just not always Btw Emkay, that's not provocation either, its friendly banter....Never lose track of the difference as some have.. @TMR, yeah nice choices there, two clever games that use playability as the key. Sure when computer games were new and programmer were still learning the secrets of the machines and dealing with limited resources the output was mainly endless games that just got harder and harder, then we got the games with an END and then you replayed them again if you were keen, same as the first but the added 'thrill' of an end reached. Soon the machines were delved in to, ram explored,, memory area's banked out and the internal tricks started to get found, add a dedicated programmer of the machine and that with a quest for a new style of game lead to the Impossible Missions, the POP's and eventually Tomb Raiders and the like but so much more in so many genre's.. The same is possible on the Atari Emkay, the programmers have evolved with the new machine understandings....We still love a good old shooter like Galaxian and Scramble but there's so much more to offer now..Our programmers play Vulcan 3D chess and everything Edit: Wow, can you go dyslexic suddenly, I do very briefly read my posts before posting (and still miss it all) but unless I slow down I'm finding words missing and the like..I don't make much sense at times but apologies for the spelling and grammatical assault course I seem to leave behind in many of my posts. I've went from loads of time on my hands to almost none with helping Bob and I'm doing everything at a million miles and hours.....It hurts too...finger joints like melons Edited August 29, 2018 by Mclaneinc 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pseudografx Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 You have to forgive Emkay, he could find something to argue about in a bowl of fluffy kittens.... This made my day. Thank you! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snicklin Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 You have to forgive Emkay, he could find something to argue about in a bowl of fluffy kittens.... To be fair to Emkay, they may have defecated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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