Atari machine or emulator?

[flashjazzcat]

It's obvious that unless you have a 1:1 realtionship between the pixels of the emulated display and the monitor, there's going to be some interpolation. But on the screenshots I blew up, there were still 8 scan lines per mode 0 line, all the same distance apart.

Edited March 20, 2018 by flashjazzcat

[darwinmac]

 

It's rather simple. If you want versatility, speed, convenience, reliability, and less frustration, go with an emulator. Otherwise you'll forever be mussing & fussing with recalcitrant hardware.

 

 

In general, I agree with this statement. However, in my case, I have spent far more time mussing with emulators (particularly, SDL issues) than I've spent dealing with problems on my XEGS. With that said, I use both emulators and my XEGS. For anything other than the 8-bit (C64, Amiga, ST), I only use emulators. Space is an issue for me and I don't have infinite space to use on vintage computer equipment. I also don't want to look like I should be on an episode of "Horders: Tech Edition".

 

To the original poster, I'd ask the simple question of how much you anticipate running 8-bit programs. If it's only rarely, I'd go with Altirra and be done with it. It works great on Wine if you don't run Windows.

 

Bob C

[SS]

But the hardy real machine folks see that as the only faithful way to play the 8 bit is on the real thing which is also true..

I like to think that I *am* a hardy real machine folk and I use Altirra almost interchangeably with my 800XL. Altitra is that good.

[+DrVenkman]

How many are using an Atari emulator to play games and if so which one? If a real Atari what advantages do you think it offers over an emulator?

 

Weeknights after work, sitting on my rear end in my chair next to my wife with a laptop handy, I use the latest beta of Altirra that Avery has most-recently given us.

​On weekends, or on rare days off with time to waste, I'll go work on either a vintage machine (one of my 1200XL's) or more likely these days, my recently-constructed 1088XEL. To me there's something ineffable yet tangible about working with vintage equipment. Even my 1088XEL has at its heart vintage Atari IC's and that's enough to scratch that it for me.

[jefffulton]

How many are using an Atari emulator to play games and if so which one? If a real Atari what advantages do you think it offers over an emulator?

I have real Atari machines set up (130XE, XEGS, 2600, 7800, Jag). I emulate things that won't work or the larger games (I don't have a memory upgrade yet).

Sometimes it's fun just to boot up the emulator and play some of those games that are only PAL. I'm in the middle of selling all my Lynx games, so I emulate that with a Retro Pi

[Keatah]

In general, I agree with this statement. However, in my case, I have spent far more time mussing with emulators (particularly, SDL issues) than I've spent dealing with problems on my XEGS. With that said, I use both emulators and my XEGS. For anything other than the 8-bit (C64, Amiga, ST), I only use emulators. Space is an issue for me and I don't have infinite space to use on vintage computer equipment. I also don't want to look like I should be on an episode of "Horders: Tech Edition".

 

I suppose emulators can be tricky and not "set-up" exactly how you think they should. This was particularly true in the first days, and has improved somewhat recently.

 

The thing I continue to find annoying about them is there are no standard/common controls among the lot. While you can assign keys and joysticks to your liking, you can't always change function keys. Exiting and screenshots are different for each emu, for example. So is the console Reset or virtual power switch. Gaining/relinquishing mouse control, yet another, and getting to a config screen still another..

 

I suppose it's a necessary evil and stems from each console/computer having different controls, as well as each developer having a different idea & philosophy about how things are done.

 

 

To help keep it all straight for myself and guests, I made reference cards and laminated them. 1 for each emu and the necessary major functions.

[Matej]

I use emulator for drawing, composing music (portable notebook, better mouse).And checking + tunning results on real machine. For games I have raspberry pi...

[kenjennings]

My original XL (upgraded with 256K and Newell OS in the 80s) sits here in a place of honor only occasionally turned on.

 

Everything else is easier on emulation (openSuse Tumbleweed on a Lenovo Z710, Atari800 emulator. Development with eclipse/uwudsn/atasm.)

 

I have also have two of the Dell Mini 12 laptops (openSuse 32-bit) whose only purpose is to run the Atari800 emulator, so, technically portable 8-bit Ataris.

 

I also use emulators for the Amiga.

[zzip]

I suppose emulators can be tricky and not "set-up" exactly how you think they should. This was particularly true in the first days, and has improved somewhat recently.

 

The thing I continue to find annoying about them is there are no standard/common controls among the lot. While you can assign keys and joysticks to your liking, you can't always change function keys. Exiting and screenshots are different for each emu, for example. So is the console Reset or virtual power switch. Gaining/relinquishing mouse control, yet another, and getting to a config screen still another..

 

I suppose it's a necessary evil and stems from each console/computer having different controls, as well as each developer having a different idea & philosophy about how things are done.

True.. I've personally made changes to function key mapping in the source code if the default mapping is too crazy. Like sometimes the emulator relies on a key not present on my keyboard so I change it to something else. That's always an option.

[Vyper68]

I tend to use Altirra now during the week, mainly due to lack of space and not being able to nab the telly. I do still use my original hardware but not very often. Altirra is so good it's just too easy to quick launch it on the laptop when someone talks about a new game or demo.

[Keatah]

I continue to use emus for the convenience and reliability. And it's great to hear others see those major advantages. Not only that, but segueing between platforms/machines/configurations. Things we could only dream about as kids. Or not, as such a notion was too far fetched and thusly deemed impossible.

 

Heh, now that I think about it.. PORTS and CP/M. That'd be the closest we could come to running "alien" software from another platform. CP/M required a new circuit board with a big 40-pin DIP IC on it. It was magic. And ports, they were re-writes and conversions. Some annoyingly identical to each other. Some were slightly different and made use of the target platform's extra hardware.

 

I might (with a stretch) consider them to be precursors to modern-day emulation.

[Fingolfin]

Great question John W -- here or at any other diehard Atari fan/user website today!

 

The results seem to be clear: at least based on replies to the opening question thus far, emulation appears to be preferred by AtariAge members for a variety of reasons.

 

In a way, this question reminds me of a certain lite beer commercial from the 80's...tastes great...less filling...

But don't we all love beer...I mean Atari!

(Aside~ a commercial like that'd never be made today: there are way too many sports celebrities present for one commercial! How many bowlers do you recognize?)

 

I must be old fashioned -- or just old or something -- but when it comes to playing Atari, I generally use Atari emulators only for 8 bit testing, checking load times, to check NTSC vs. PAL settings for trying to help determine playability of PAL games on NTSC hardware, etc. Occasionally I use an emulator to check out software that won't/can't run on my real hardware.

 

Using emulators to play vintage games on computers makes me feel a bit uneasy, like I am experiencing the Twilight Zone...in an episode that feels dark, dim and oddly unfamiliar, maybe even a bit haunting...

 

This has always been the case for me; using emulators to play games just feels off. Nearly two decades ago I remember a friend trying to get me to check out MAME, telling me "the emulation's so good, it's just like it was in the arcade." Well it looked just as good as the arcade but MAME does not recreate an arcade experience for me; not even close, so I moved on (when I feel the need to play arcade games I usually go to a local arcade). The plethora of settings and options that emulators afford is great for testing, but for me personally there is nothing like playing games on real Atari hardware -- with controllers made specifically for playing 8 bit Atari games.

 

Emulators are great because a) they're inexpensive to operate (and real Atari stuff costs real $), b) they allow users to have all their computing/gaming in one place (and as others have commented, emulators are great space savers), and c) they help preserve the past.

 

I hope I'm not being too raw on emulators because I do realize the current Atari (game playing) scene wouldn't exist without them! At least it would be very different and likely a whole lot smaller...

 

Also, the development of emulation technology has benefitted many different platforms, both old and new. One example being that the same files that work on Atari emulators also work on various devices that employ some sort of emulation but still act like real hardware (to our Atari computers) like SIO2PC/SIO2SD, The Ultimate Atari Cartridge, etc.

 

And that fact seems remarkable and weirdly recursive to me: how decades of utilizing Atari software for emulation purposes has come back to the point where emulation components (i.e. .atr, .xex, .rom, etc) have been combined with physical hardware to create a hybrid, part real Atari hardware and part Atari emulated software.

Edit/addition: I know this "hybrid" technology has been around for a while but it still seems interesting and curious to me to step back and look at it from the perspective of the last 20 or so years and how emulation, and all hardware and software has (been) developed during that time.

 

With regard to my (lack of) technical expertise: I think I am correct in conveying my understanding of how emulation components come together with real Atari hardware to make such devices as SIO2PC/SIO2SD, The Ultimate Atari Cartridge, etc possible. Please a) correct and then b) forgive me if I am disseminating any nonsense at all!

 

Back to the issue: emulation vs. real hardware...Spock would tell me my explanation isn't logical , but playing Atari is a physical, tactile and even kinesthetic experience to me.

Just like going to the arcade...loud enough you can feel it, with quirky and idiosyncratic controllers for many or most of the games.

 

For what it's worth I don't know that there's yet been an Atari, Capcom, Namco, Williams compilation or any other arcade hits for any platform that has really worked well and truly brought home an arcade experience (obviously this is a highly subjective statement but I think I've conveyed enough in this post to indicate my arcade/gaming sensibilities); as is often the case with emulating arcade games, some of the games work well on modern game machines but often a third or more of the games on such compilations suffer due to control related translation issues. Of course this is speaking quite generally, though (unfortunately) I have a good deal of specific experience with many of the arcade compilations/greatest hits offerings released over the past 23 years on a range of systems (considering PSX thru Xbox 360).

 

Thanks for posting the question John W! And thank you very much for sharing your Atari 8 bit work!

 

Best Regards to all!

Fingolfin

Edited March 21, 2018 by Fingolfin

[Keatah]

I think this "hybrid software", software served by a modern flash device, is a means to an end. A way to reduce and eliminate wear and tear on cartridges, a way to work around annoyingly intermittent floppy disks and drives.

I also believe that bin rom xex atr (and more) is a way to work with cartridges and disks on a PC for testing and development purposes. There HAS to be a file format. So, there you go!

As far as emulation recreating the arcade experience. Nope. It won't do that. Software won't transform your basement into an instant dark dungeon of 80's chicks and smoke and music. It can be a part of that. It can be put in a MAME cab and placed in a real arcade. And if done with attention to detail it would fit right in. It would be a part of the experience, mixing in with the 80's music and lighting and so on.

20 some odd years ago I wrote a paper on how emulators are like undead zombies. It described a near-religious satanic aura surrounding it all. No one wanted to hear of it. Real hardware all the way.

I've often never been one to try and duplicate the exact control scheme of an arcade cab. But, rather, map and modify a control scheme to fit the available controller at hand. I do have some X-Arcade control boards and a couple of home made ones, but they are not exact and precisely specific to any one game.

 

In thinking about how pervasive emulation has become, I've no choice but to note the critics. These critics are definitely a vocal minority. Their numbers aren't increasing much, just the volume of noise they generate. Like it or not.. Kicking and screaming or not.. Emulation is here to stay and only gaining popularity. It's important as a development tool, testing too, and is a viable replacement for shelves full of hardware.

 

The only solace I can offer them is suggesting that emulation become a companion. A method and means to reduce/eliminate wear and tear on their original gear. Who can argue with that? And it's practical, too. Many of you know I'm into Apple, have the original hardware. And that's awesomely awesome. However I do everything through AppleWin and only occasionally revert back to the 40 year old hardware. Allows me to keep the hardware fresh for when I want an authentic experience.

[TEBL]

I use the real hardware mostly, nothing beats the feeling of proper 80s plastic creaking under your fingers while sitting way too close to the TV.

 

If you're in it because you like messing with the electronics, trying to keep it alive just one more year then go physical. If you just want to play the game, then emulate away and think no more of it :-)

[darwinmac]

 

I suppose emulators can be tricky and not "set-up" exactly how you think they should. This was particularly true in the first days, and has improved somewhat recently.

I should have been clearer. Most of my debugging with emulators has been with SDL problems on macOS. I do not wish to get into a modern platform debate. I prefer the Mac. Others prefer Windows or Linux. It does not matter. I see it as personal preference.

 

I saw this topic after spending about four hours this weekend trying to get the macOS SDL VICE working only to find out that the previous version does work correctly on my Mac. I have had few problems getting used to different interface quirks.

 

I only mention this because the debugging can also take place on an emulator as well.

 

I was lucky that someone gave me an XEGS in near-mint condition. When it breaks down, I have everything set up to use Altirra instead. It works great in Wine on my Mac.

 

I see the appeal of the actual hardware, but I also understand why lots of us use software emulators instead.

 

Unless the original poster intends on spending a significant time with the Atari 8-bit or likes working on hardware, I would think an emulator would be the best answer for him.

 

Bob C

[Lord Thag]

I like mucking about with the original hardware. But it is not easy to dive into if you are not familiar with it. 8bit PCs are a ... whole different era.

I like emulators but prefer playing on real hardware. What I'm really hoping is that someone will make a version of Altirra that you can boot on a Raspberri PI that functions transparently. No mucking about with linux, just boot it and play games. Something you could slap in an actual Atari case. I tried something similar with whichever 8-bit emulator was available at the time (Atari800?), but it was too limited at that point to be very useful.

[Mclaneinc]

What we have to get our head around is that emulation is the stepping stone to the future, eventually and probably not in my lifetime the machines will run their course for most, as the machines become rarer and therefore pricier it will be harder to keep the habit going then you hit the choice problem, continue the hobby but emulated or quit it?

 

How long before VR becomes the norm, will they be able to recreate the feeling of having a real machine as you look through the goggles, how will that sit with some?

 

As has been said with the hybrid devices that boot atrs on to real hardware, its already becoming slightly bastardised for the purists while others would say its a simple expansion of the hardware, well I see emulation as a virtual expansion of the hardware, I sit with Altirra and play Jumpman, I feel every bit as locked in with it as I did on the real machine back then, yeah sure if I had real hardware in front of me it might elevate the experience a little but I'm too in to the game to care.

 

For me that's a massive achievement by Avery, I'm loving what I'm doing as much as back then, I've still got a joystick / pad in my hand and what I'm looking at ticks all the boxes, what more could I ask..

 

/me offers Avery a huge non alcoholic beverage as a thank you...You did it my friend, you did what you set out to do....And then some.....Thank you...

Edited March 22, 2018 by Mclaneinc

[zzip]

I like emulators but prefer playing on real hardware. What I'm really hoping is that someone will make a version of Altirra that you can boot on a Raspberri PI that functions transparently. No mucking about with linux, just boot it and play games. Something you could slap in an actual Atari case. I tried something similar with whichever 8-bit emulator was available at the time (Atari800?), but it was too limited at that point to be very useful.

What exactly do you mean by "too limited"? Atari800 is a pretty mature emulator at this point and I use it all the time to "just boot and play games" as you put it.

[zzip]

I'm glad the "gotta be real hardware" guys exist. They pay top dollar for my old hardware that I don't want to bother with anymore. If they can give it the TLC it deserves, great! It was just collecting dust in my house.

[Mclaneinc]

I think he's (Lord Tharg) making a past reference at a much earlier version...

 

Currently Atari800 is very good (apart from the interface imho) and will happily do 99.% of what Altirra does if you base it on just running games etc, where its more handy is in the fact its multi OS. I'm not an alternative OS user myself (well very very rarely) as what I use runs fine on Windows that's my poison of choice. Currently Atari800 is anything but limited..

 

Atari++ is also a good emulator but again the interface kills it for me, that SDL thing is too fiddly but it does what it says on the tin so thank you Slor (I think). For me because of the arthritis and other things mean I need something that's dead easy to navigate and I don't have to spend hours setting up, by 10 - 20 mins in my neck is already so painful it destroys the enjoyment and my joints start to get painful so finicky interfaces are no good for me but the emulation they achieve is what is more important and they do the job.

 

Its all horses for courses as they say...

Edited March 22, 2018 by Mclaneinc

[zzip]

I think he's (Lord Tharg) making a past reference at a much earlier version...

 

Currently Atari800 is very good (apart from the interface imho) and will happily do 99.% of what Altirra does if you base it on just running games etc, where its more handy is in the fact its multi OS. I'm not an alternative OS user myself (well very very rarely) as what I use runs fine on Windows that's my poison of choice. Currently Atari800 is anything but limited..

 

Atari++ is also a good emulator but again the interface kills it for me, that SDL thing is too fiddly but it does what it says on the tin so thank you Slor (I think). For me because of the arthritis and other things mean I need something that's dead easy to navigate and I don't have to spend hours setting up, by 10 - 20 mins in my neck is already so painful it destroys the enjoyment and my joints start to get painful so finicky interfaces are no good for me but the emulation they achieve is what is more important and they do the job.

 

Its all horses for courses as they say...

 

I agree about the Atari++ interface, but it's a good emulator overall as well. It has a few things atari800 doesn't. I think it makes a better 5200 emulator than atari800.

[Lord Thag]

What exactly do you mean by "too limited"? Atari800 is a pretty mature emulator at this point and I use it all the time to "just boot and play games" as you put it.

The version I used at the time would play games, but I want something that will boot and act as an Atari transparently. I didn't find the emulator I used to be a very effective replacement for the system, outside of playing the occasional game. I was hoping for something that you could boot into that worked exactly like the system it emulates. The version that was ported to the Pi at the time I messed with it, had a very poor interface. I found it much more annoying than just using original hardware.

[zzip]

The version I used at the time would play games, but I want something that will boot and act as an Atari transparently. I didn't find the emulator I used to be a very effective replacement for the system, outside of playing the occasional game. I was hoping for something that you could boot into that worked exactly like the system it emulates. The version that was ported to the Pi at the time I messed with it, had a very poor interface. I found it much more annoying than just using original hardware.

 

Current version has a menu interface in ATASCII and controlled with the arrow keys. It feels like a natural extension of the 8-bit as opposed to a mouse-driven GUI interface that takes you out of the experience. The menu may seem a little clunky at first, but once you get used to it, you can change a disk in the menu faster than you can change a disk on a real system (for instance)

 

You can boot it up and use it natively, it has pretty good CRT emulation options that can make it feel even more authentic.

 

For me, it has features that make it better than real hardware, like speed toggle.

 

I don't understand what it's missing.

[Lord Thag]

 

Current version has a menu interface in ATASCII and controlled with the arrow keys. It feels like a natural extension of the 8-bit as opposed to a mouse-driven GUI interface that takes you out of the experience. The menu may seem a little clunky at first, but once you get used to it, you can change a disk in the menu faster than you can change a disk on a real system (for instance)

 

You can boot it up and use it natively, it has pretty good CRT emulation options that can make it feel even more authentic.

 

For me, it has features that make it better than real hardware, like speed toggle.

 

I don't understand what it's missing.

"Current version" has all that. I didn't use the current version, as I said. If it does all that now, I'll definitely need to drag out the Pi and flash a new image. It was mouse driven when I used it.

[Keatah]

There are many ways to view the idea of emulation. For me it is an enabler and allows me to have something I wanted since I was a kid in school.

 

When I got my second console, an Intellivision IIRC, I always had to disconnect and put away the VCS, then take out Intellivision and hook it up. And when I was done with gaming for the day I had to put everything away nice and neat. All this mussing and fussing was terribly annoying to a kid, you see. I eventually amassed a huge pile of carts and I think 18 machines at one point. And then a tiny warehouse I rented with a buddy. A place to put arcade cabs. And it all became unmanageable. I started thinking it would be so cool to have 1 single machine to play all the games and run all my software.

 

Today this is possible and doable in several formfactors. STB, NUC, Laptop, traditional box or small box, mini-PC, AIO. 1 processor and 1 chipset. No more mess. No more fuss. All self-contained and easily managed.

 

Each emulator is like a special personality module. Not unlike a cartridge or Speak'n'Spell speech module. One instant I'm playing VCS, the next, swap to Apple II.

 

Another advantage is today's modern hardware and storage capability. The ability to instantly recall something out of "deep storage". For example I played my first Xonox games (VCS) after following a thread that sounded interesting. This ability to move from machine to machine, game to game, is really enjoyable and something that can only be done via emulation.

 

And as a BONUS, the little box also tends to my other hobbies like photography and astronomy. It is a repository for all photos and a darkroom too. It's an orrery and a data portal to the night sky when the weather's bad. Not to mention a library and research tool.

 

In fact I could not imagine going to back to old way. Actually I can, and it doesn't look like fun.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Keatah