How to load SRC files?

[Fingolfin]

The SRC files I would like to load are from the Hofacker 6502 Program Files disk that accompanies the book How To Program Your Atari in 6502 Machine Language by Sam D. Roberts.

 

The book provides no information about the accompanying disk and how to load contents/files; there's not even an insert with this information: just the book and the disk. The directory of the disk contents matches the programs listed and discussed in the book: there are mostly SRC files with a few BAS files (I believe for comparing 6502 assembly programs listed and discussed in the book with BASIC versions of the same program).

The disk and book are a matched pair; just without any written/published indication of how they are paired up and intended to be used together.

 

I cannot seem to find useful information anywhere on what SRC files are and how to load them; googling "SRC files" gives general info about SRC files being programming code files but that's about it (not particularly helpful for this Atari 8 bit context). SRC stands for source (code). That's all I got so far!

 

Any help would be very much appreciated: I hope to contribute to atarimania by making .atr files of some BASIC programming utilities and some programming disks (including the attached) as well as scanning some Atari 8 bit programming documentation.

 

I would like to be able to help others access the contents of the attached disk/.atr file: I would like to learn how to load and run the SRC files. At the moment I'm completely clueless as to how to do so.

 

The .atr file matches my original disk; using 130XE connected to XF551 and SIO2SD, I used DOS 2.5 Duplicate Disk to make the .atr of the Hofacker 6502 Program Files disk.

 

How do you load/run SRC files?

Do you need to have an assembler loaded into memory in order to load and run these files?

 

I tried loading Atari's Assembler Editor into Atari800MacX but could not figure out how to load these SRC files doing so; my knowledge of assembly is very limited and I haven't used Assembler Editor much in emulation at all (I had BASIC, PILOT and Assembler Editor cartridges growing up; I learned BASIC, LOGO and PILOT by the time I was 12 and had started to learn some simple assembly 6502 programming in my early teens).

 

Also would anyone know if the assembler mentioned in How To Program Your Atari in 6502 Machine Language, ATMONA-1, is any good?

And if so, is it available anywhere?

 

FWIW, I have 1) Assembler Editor on cart and 2) Atari Macro Assembler and Text Editor on disk; I have emulation versions of these two as well (1) .car and 2) .atx).

 

Thank you for reading this post and considering replying!

Thank you in advance for your help!

 

Best Regards

Fingolfin

Hofacker6502ProgramFiles.atr

Edited March 30, 2018 by Fingolfin

[Mclaneinc]

You might want to look at this

 

http://www.atarimania.com/documents/Hofacker_Software_Program_Descriptions.pdf

 

 

I've no experience with this assembler but the SRC won't be happy with Atari Assembler Editor

 

Here's the assembler it needs, pages 11 - 14 of that PDF show you how to assemble with it...

 

 

Atmas II Macroassembler A.atr

Edited March 30, 2018 by Mclaneinc

[joyfulcoder]

The SRC files on that ATR are text files with CR for end-of-line.

For some reason they are padded with char 255 to fill 128 byte blocks but they can still be opened in a text editor.

[Fingolfin]

Post revised/reformatted...(please) lookout below!

Edited March 30, 2018 by Fingolfin

[Fingolfin]

Thank you very much Mclaneinc and joyfulcoder!

You might want to look at this

 

http://www.atarimania.com/documents/Hofacker_Software_Program_Descriptions.pdf

 

 

I've no experience with this assembler but the SRC won't be happy with Atari Assembler Editor

 

Here's the assembler it needs, pages 11 - 14 of that PDF show you how to assemble with it...

 

 

Mclaneinc, thank you so much for taking the time to track down the Hofacker resource at atarimania and the copy of Atmas II Macroassembler.

Incredibly helpful as I really did not know where to begin (other than suspecting the files needed an assembler of some kind).

These files appear to be intended for fairly specific use with Atmas II Macroassembler (or ATMAS or ATMONA-1)?

Would this be a question of Hofacker marketing/selling programs for use with its own instructional materials?

Do you (or anyone else) have any idea what benefit there is/there might be to using one of Hofacker's own assembler/editors like ATMAS, ATMASII, ATMONA-1 (vs. any other assembler/editor package)?

Are ATMAS, ATMAS II, ATMONA-1 good assembler/editors for Atari 8 bit?

I imagine there are some here at AtariAge who use or have used these and might have used some Hofacker materials to learn programming BITD?

If so and you have the time, it would be great to hear from you.

 

The SRC files on that ATR are text files with CR for end-of-line.

For some reason they are padded with char 255 to fill 128 byte blocks but they can still be opened in a text editor.

joyfulcoder, thank you very much for investigating these files. Your help is greatly appreciated!

Do you think it would make sense that these SRC files are (essentially) text files for use with the 6502 programming book?

That is, using Atmas II Macroassembler (or ATMAS or ATMONA-1) it's possible to load and run these files as they are, but otherwise users of the disk could access the program listings in text form with a text editor alone?

And then use the assembler of their choice for running these programs (using text editor)?

 

CR end of line present in these files/programs would be to make for easier reading as text (and converting/transferring to another assembler/editor)?

I hope my attempts at restating my understanding based on the above posts are reasonably accurate and (at least fairly) easy to understand.

Thanks again for replying! I really appreciate you taking the time to help and share your knowledge and understanding.

Edited for improved readability (hopefully!).

Edited March 30, 2018 by Fingolfin

[1050]

End of the day this atr is just an obligation fulfilled,

Hofacker said the book came with a disk and this is the

disk, so now you can go fish or any other thing. But

what you can't do is take Hofacker to court since the

book came with a disk as advertised.

 

No matter it is using some unknown word processor to

make the text .src files with that are not the usual

fare today and this needs converting to more standard

flavor for general consumption to start with.

 

Then there is assembler used which is unnamed in the

source code as well. Each line starts with OUT LN for

example which I take to be a Line Number routine which

is not included that I could note while I did the above

conversion to ascii so we all could see the forest for

the trees.

 

My take on it is horribly done with no include hints or

useful source other than it qualifies legally as source

code perhaps. I would have to replace many items if I

were to translate this source code over to MAC/65 and

at the end of the day I have saved 2 minutes using this

stuff as the starting point where it could take all day

to come up with something that works. IF I knew what that

was in the first place, and I don't.

 

At any rate the translated source files are zipped below

as .txt files readable on the PC. To use these with an

Atari you'll need to further translate 0D0A pair for

Atari 9Bh linefeed character and there are many programs

for doing this that run on the PC at least. They used 09h

for TAB character so I replaced those with 5 space

characters just because it makes my life easier to do it

that way. Some programs want to vomit when they hit 09h

TAB character and I have little patience when it comes to

cleaning up vomit.

 

So not very useful information on the disk, perhaps some

of the BASIC programs are where these were meant to be

used? NOT going there because this is really your job.

I find the files to be mostly fluff and filler, to be

ignored for the most part.

 

Hofa.zip

[1050]

One of the first projects that I got completed on

my journey to becoming a code head was the eprom

burner software printed in the Hofacker Hacker book.

 

There they also used illegal calls to the 800 OS

which breaks this code for XL/XE use outright. First

thing we are taught as Atari coders is to NEVER do

direct OS jumps. Apparently Hofacker never got that

memo - this is 800 only code, just like the eprom

burner would only work on the 800 with it's 3rd and

4th joystick used for the eprom burner project.

 

AND I found a glaring error in the code which further

insured that the project as a whole would never work.

In that book, the program code was printed as blocks

of hex code in the pages of the book so that saved

them from having to supply a physical disk. I don't

think much of either method since we don't know what

OUT LN means or does or could do.

[sanny]

since we don't know what OUT LN means or does or could do.

 

Why didn't you read the PDF Mclaneinc posted?

[Mclaneinc]

Just pleased to put someone on the right road, to be fair the PDF is pretty intensive as a quick read but I managed to assemble the menu.src perfectly, long time since I've done that and it was always with the Atari Assembler editor or directly coding in OmnimonXL, to think I used to know most of the op codes of the top of my head and the locations

 

Barely remember my name these days

[Fingolfin]

Thanks again for your help and for providing both the proper document resources and the right assembler, Mclaneinc!

Did not know exactly all of what my original question entailed (i.e. the can of worms opened here); I had no clue where to start without you're help.

 

Thanks again joyfulcoder; you're reply gave me the idea to try to open the .atr using just a word processor.

 

FWIW, I used Apple/Mac Simple Text and found something distantly similar to 1050's ascii conversion, except opening in Simple Text reveals a lot of "vomit" to use 1050's expression; 1050's conversion is clean, while opening the .atr using Simple Text produced the SRC code but along with it a lot of extra symbols and odd formatting (to be expected I suppose when opening an .atr file using a word process/text editor). Still I found this interesting and useful for further understanding of the Hofacker 6502 SRC files and this disk.

 

Thank you very much 1050 for taking the time to convert the SRC files to ascii text. Thank you for posting your conversion here.

Thank you for your insights about the code itself and the lack of documentation present (on the disk; for the book).

Your comments are very helpful in trying to determine the nature and use/usefulness of the programs on the disk.

 

When I posted originally, I did not mean to ask for anyone to undertake as much as those of you who have replied have done: thank you very much for your help and for sharing your knowledge, insights, and understanding!

 

 

I still would like to ask more about Atmas II Macroassembler, ATMAS and ATMONA-1.

 

Has anyone used these assembler/editors before?

 

I saw on atarimania that Berthold commented that he really liked ATMAS II because it was the first assembler he used but more so because assembler, editor and debugger can all be loaded in memory at the same time. He also mentions the author of ATMAS II, Peter Finzel, was also the author of Cavelord and Schreckenstein. Pretty cool!

 

Thank you again to all who have read and all who have replied.

 

Best Regards

Fingolfin

Edited March 31, 2018 by Fingolfin

[Fox-1 / mnx]

I still would like to ask more about Atmas II Macroassembler, ATMAS and ATMONA-1.

 

Has anyone used these assembler/editors before?

 

Started with Atmas-II. Couldn't get used to it. Tried 130XE Assembler and MAE. Same story. Ended up with MAC/65 to never switch back.

[mchorvat]

Fingolfin, send me a PM. I have been using Atmas2 and Atmas4 for decades. All my asm creations for Atari were coded in A2/A4. This is imho the best assembler for 8bit atari. Superfast, no line numbers needed, debugger included. Very configurable. It was used by many many folks and demo groups in Germany, former Czechoslovakia and Hungary. Check the demos, games in my signature.

 

I am happy to help you with anything Atmas related and answer all your questions

Edited April 1, 2018 by mchorvat

[1050]

Why didn't you read the PDF Mclaneinc posted?

Thanks for asking, it helps the next guy at the very least.

 

I plainly wasn't expecting much at that link.

I wouldn't be interested in an 800 only executable

made by the source code. It needs that part fixed and

I'm not doing that.

 

I assumed Fingolfin was in a cloud of confusion over

what he had. My main point was to post the source in

a more accessible manner without needing the assembler.

And show the pitfalls of doing so that often need doing

when dealing with source code - there appears to be

NO desire to be universal, each assembler's source

needs translating to another if you want to use another

assembler with that source.

Mainly to show that there is not so very much useful

here after all.

 

Turns out there is an assembler and instructions,

my bad. I'll go get it, don't have much luck with

assemblers from the good old days. Having one that

does something at all would be nice.

[Fingolfin]

Thanks again for replying!

Thank you for your time and help Fox-1 / mmx, mchorvat and 1050 (again!).

 

This thread's changing course a bit now -- from how to load the SRC files from the Hofacker 6502 Program Files disk to a discussion of different assembler/editors -- but I appreciate all the help I can get (as you all seem to recognize).

 

 

Fox-1 / mmx, I'd like to try MAC/65 as well.

What would you say are MAC/65's strengths as an assembler/editor?

 

 

mchorvat, I will send you a PM. Thank you very much for your generous offer to help with ATMAS II.

Thanks for sharing your time and knowledge. I've tinkered with ATMAS II a little bit since Mclaneinc's first reply but I do have some questions.

 

 

1050, I tried to quote and split replies but spazzed out (how's that for some dated/80's lingo). I attempted to reply below.

Thank you again 1050 for taking the time to read this post and reply and to make the ascii conversion of the SRC files; you have been a great help!

 

1050:

"I assumed Fingolfin was in a cloud of confusion over what he had."

 

Whoa! Just because I live in CO, I'm in a cloud of some kind?

 

Actually metaphor choice aside, you're entirely correct: I really had no idea what these files were and how to load, list and run them.

I was confused about the SRC files on the Hofacker disk and had no idea that trying to answer my initial question would involve so many parts/pieces and processes.

I have learned quite a bit since first posting this question on Friday.

With your help and that of Mclaneinc and joyfulcoder, I at least had/have a clue -- or the start of one!

 

1050:

"My main point was to post the source in
a more accessible manner without needing the assembler.
And show the pitfalls of doing so that often need doing
when dealing with source code - there appears to be
NO desire to be universal, each assembler's source
needs translating to another if you want to use another
assembler with that source.
Mainly to show that there is not so very much useful
here after all."

Thank you for the ascii conversion; I've looked at it and compared it with the raw 'vomit'-laden results of opening the .atr with Simple Text.

As stated previously, my assembly experience is limited but as you say there doesn't seem to be much to these sample programs.

I need to sit down with your ascii conversion and the book sometime this week and see if that sheds more light on why the SRC assembly programs on the disk were chosen: what instructional value in teaching a) assembly language techniques or b) useful info for 6502 programming (specific to working with this chip) there is/might be to the programs chosen for the book/disk.

Thanks again to all who read and reply here!

Thank you very much for sharing your time and knowledge.

Best Regards

Fingolfin

[Fox-1 / mnx]

Fox-1 / mmx, I'd like to try MAC/65 as well.

What would you say are MAC/65's strengths as an assembler/editor?

 

The simplicity I guess. It's just an editor with some syntax checking and that's it. No strange key-combo's to do the things, just plain text commands. Less appealing feature are the line numbers. They're required and however they come in handy when listing a particular part of the source I could easily without those.

 

edit: I don't think other assembler are worse. I've seen the stuff GMG made in the past (like http://atari.fox-1.nl/atari-400-800-xl-xe/implosion/ ) so Atmas can't be that bad :-) It's up to the coder to make something of it. The outcome after assembling is pretty much the same, no matter what assembler you're using.

Edited April 1, 2018 by Fox-1 / mnx

[mchorvat]

Good to see you here, fox-1 i recall weve been in touch some 20 years ago. Time flies.... and yes, i mentioned your bbs in the implosion demo greetings

Edited April 2, 2018 by mchorvat

[Fox-1 / mnx]

Good to see you here, fox-1 i recall weve been in touch some 20 years ago. Time flies.... and yes, i mentioned your bbs in the implosion demo greetings

 

Yes, we've met in Poland at Orneta Party (or was it Intel Outside?). Feels like yesterday. I really miss those events. Unfortunately the BBS died a little over a year ago. I'm about to move soon and maybe, just maybe, I'll bring the BBS back online.

 

I noticed Satantronic's site went down a long while ago. Does this mean GMG left the demo scene for good?

[Marius]

 

The simplicity I guess. It's just an editor with some syntax checking and that's it. No strange key-combo's to do the things, just plain text commands. Less appealing feature are the line numbers. They're required and however they come in handy when listing a particular part of the source I could easily without those.

 

edit: I don't think other assembler are worse. I've seen the stuff GMG made in the past (like http://atari.fox-1.nl/atari-400-800-xl-xe/implosion/ ) so Atmas can't be that bad :-) It's up to the coder to make something of it. The outcome after assembling is pretty much the same, no matter what assembler you're using.

 

Atmas II is a pretty good Assembler. IIRC The High Tech Team also used Atmas II. My personal favorite assembler on a8 is the Synassembler cartridge. It's as fast as Mac/65 and it runs on a stock 8K rom. It has a few very cool features. One the handiest functions is that you can run your code without leaving the editor. It also has a built in ML monitor.

 

I have been using the 130XE+ assembler from T. Karwoth and the Bibo assembler too. Both very nice assemblers but in the end I kept using Mac/65 and Synassembler, where Synassembler in the end turned out to be my most favorite.

[1050]

As stated previously, my assembly experience is limited but as you say there doesn't seem to be much to these sample programs.

I need to sit down with your ascii conversion and the book sometime this week and see if that sheds more light on why the SRC assembly programs on the disk were chosen: what instructional value in teaching a) assembly language techniques or b) useful info for 6502 programming (specific to working with this chip) there is/might be to the programs chosen for the book/disk.

Maybe I can shed a bit more light on it? I knew from

past experience with MAC/65 that major missing part

was missing. The I/O library, which just happens to

be in Mclaneinc's ATR. Trying to make up that code

from the book/disk offerings would quickly escalate

into insanity in my opinion. All these would then

be .include files in the manner in which MAC/65 does

it. I know there are assemblers that don't go there

in that spelled out manner and this one sounds like

one of those perhaps. They have strong points and

problems perhaps doing it this way, while it allows

MAC/65 to do other things it's own way too.

 

Once you have OS system equates and the I/O library

defined, the basic thought is you can now concentrate

on writing code for your project without having to

deal with the minutia every time you want to read

the keyboard for user input as one example.

 

But I find MAC/65's I/O library to be less than

ideal and I wind up using nothing of the supplied

support files. I'm not doing what they envisioned

that I would be either and that may be why I can

find little utility in those files. I'm going to have

the same opinion for another assemblers support

files especially when the major slice of the pie

just isn't there (yet).

 

So with that reveal maybe you can see behind my

comments so far as to the worth of this .src code?

If you are doing what they envisioned you would

be doing with this .src code, then it's good

stuff all day long. I have no doubt this assembler

has many talents and is a strong contender in

experienced hands. You just don't get praise

from junk code and many have a high opinion of it.

I'm good with that part. I'll continue to look

at it myself.

 

As to learning assembler I see no easy guide to

offer you. But I do get a sense that you have

a very good handle on how to fillet a fish like

this one good and proper already. It's been a

pleasure from another part of the same high

state of colorado.

[mchorvat]

Fingolfin, this doc might help you explore Atmas2 more.

 

ATR (Atmas II Macroassembler A.atr) that Mclaneinc provided is a good start as it contains Atmas2 binary, which can load all SRC files on your atr.

 

cheers,

m.

atmas2_manual_en.txt

Edited April 3, 2018 by mchorvat

[Fingolfin]

Thank you ProWizard, 1050 and mchorvat for your replies and more help and information!

 

Thank you mchorvat for the ATMAS-II manual!

 

I haven't had a chance to work with ATMAS-II and the .SRC files again since Saturday morning; I need to find a few hours at night later this week or even this weekend to try out ATMAS-II again; preferably on a real Atari (but will see what time affords).

 

I also still need to PM mchorvat, but as I haven't done anything with ATMAS-II since his first post, I haven't PM'd yet (but I will!).

 

All of the time, assistance and input provided here by AtariAge members has been a huge help.

Thank you very much for taking the time to help and reply!

 

Best Regards

Fingolfin

 

Not sure why but suddenly I'm feeling the urge to go fishing and fillet fresh trout tonight!

Edited April 3, 2018 by Fingolfin

[dmsc]

Hi!

 

Thank you ProWizard, 1050 and mchorvat for your replies and more help and information!

 

Thank you mchorvat for the ATMAS-II manual!

 

I haven't had a chance to work with ATMAS-II and the .SRC files again since Saturday morning; I need to find a few hours at night later this week or even this weekend to try out ATMAS-II again; preferably on a real Atari (but will see what time affords).

 

I also still need to PM mchorvat, but as I haven't done anything with ATMAS-II since his first post, I haven't PM'd yet (but I will!).

 

All of the time, assistance and input provided here by AtariAge members has been a huge help.

Thank you very much for taking the time to help and reply!

 

Best Regards

Fingolfin

 

Not sure why but suddenly I'm feeling the urge to go fishing and fillet fresh trout tonight!

This could be useful to you: atmas-ii-mydos-full.atr

 

This ATR has MyDOS with all Atmas related sources I have here:

- ATMAS II assembler (as autorun),

- Sources from ATMAS toolkit (mostly in German)

- Sources from the Hofacker6502ProgramFiles ATR posted here.

 

So, to use, you can boot the ATR, then type "<ESC>RD:MYFILE<ESC><ESC>", (the .SCR extension is added), assemble with CONTROL-Y, go to the monitor with CONTROL-P, execute the examples with "G A800", return to the editor with <RESET> or "E".

 

To go to DOS, from the editor type "<ESC>M<ESC><ESC>".

[Fingolfin]

Thank very much you dmsc!

 

This is another big help.

Thank you for taking the time to read, reply and post the Atmas-II mydos full.atr above and provide directions for accessing the .SRC files on the Hofacker disk.

Thank you for being so clear and methodical in giving directions!

 

With this new great ATMAS-II resource/.atr file and the Atmas2 manual previously posted by mchorvat, I may need to ask some questions about German vocabulary/technical terms.

 

I know a little German but nothing technical at all: I do not know technical terminology in German; I just know some conversational German.

 

If it is okay, can I ask some German translation questions?

 

Having already tried google translate first (with no help):

What does Textspexcherplatz mean? Something about text to speech?

Also what does FURZBEISPIEL mean? Something about talk or explanation?

 

Thank you. These terms sere used in the Atmas2 manual and although 99.9% of it is in English, there are a couple/few terms in German.

 

Thank you again to all who read this post and take the time to reply!

I hope to have time this weekend to re-read all the resources you all have supplied here and use ATMAS-II to check out its features and "front end" as an assembler/editor/debugger and load and execute the .SRC files from the Hofacker book which started this post in the first place last Friday!

 

I'll try to post Sunday night or sometime later Monday with results, impressions, discoveries, etc.

 

Thanks again AtariAge members for all of your help here!

You all are amazing!

 

Best Regards

Fingolfin

[ivop]

Looks like http://ivop.free.fr/atari/atmas2.html translated by Google Note that it also contains a bunch of OCR errors I never fixed.

 

I have reformatted the manual in LaTeX and have a 50% translation to English done a few years ago, but got bored along the road (translating text is not a job for me)

 

Textspexcherplatz --> Textspeicherplatz --> Text Storage Place

 

FURZBEISPIEL -> Kurzbeispiel -> Short example

 

Most of my early stuff was done in Atmas II, and as said above, a lot of Eastern Europe, German and Dutch demo's were done with Atmas II. Notable early example is HTT's The Big Demo.

 

As long as your program does not mess with the address where the source code is stored, it's a very nice all-in-one IDE of sorts. If you do need to load data files (i.e. fonts or images), I used to save my source, assemble, do to the monitor, [L]oad the data files, and run. After that, RESET, back in the editor (which shows a messed up source code), clean the buffer, reload source, and continue

 

Edit: furzbeispiel --> fart example

Edited April 5, 2018 by ivop

[+DjayBee]

LOL

Furzbeispiel is a really nice OCR-error.

Translated to English it means fart-example.