Jump to content

Photo

Some new (not really) hardware made by tfhh

1050 Memory Expansion

111 replies to this topic

#51 tf_hh OFFLINE  

tf_hh

    Dragonstomper

  • Topic Starter
  • 660 posts
  • Location:Germany

Posted Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:44 PM

Hi,

 

tf_hh - sent you a PM. Posting here as well to see if anyone else has any thoughts...

 

Finally getting around to installing the 512 KB in my 600XL. Ran into a snag that I couldn't find any info on. This motherboard is fully socketed (AWESOME!!!), which poses a problem. The back of the boards pins will not sit flush in the ANTIC socket. The board is sitting against the upper chip. If I push it in, the board is slanted upward in rear.

 

After further testing, even if I get a low profile riser socket - even with the shield removed, the keyboard/top case will not sit flush with the unit. About a 1/4-1/2" gap.

 

So, it appears this expansion is not compatible with a "socketed" 600XL.

 

I´m very sorry - I forget to mention this fact in the installation manual and my hardware "catalogue" as well :(

 

Of course I will offer a full refund, if you want. Just PM me.

 

There´s no really good way to install it except direct soldering without the use of sockets. I don´t recommend that. Although I test every unit before shipping, and you also have test your computer, something may went wrong. And with a fixed, not replaceable PCB like this any kind of service is hard - maybe impossible. Desoldering a machine-head contact strip is pain in the *** - the chance of destroying any trace is much higher.

 

I updated the manual and catalogue files parallel with this post. If anybody has bought this PCB for usage in a 600XL, please contact me.

 

Jurgen

 



#52 tf_hh OFFLINE  

tf_hh

    Dragonstomper

  • Topic Starter
  • 660 posts
  • Location:Germany

Posted Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:50 PM

There is a clearance issue on the 800XL as well. My solution was to solder the device direct to the motherboard after removing the ANTIC socket. Ideally, if all forty connections are direct (not diverted), the pin headers on the bottom would be replaced by a single precision socket sat flush with the adapter board, whose legs would in turn plug into the ANTIC socket. See the VBXE ANTIC adapter for a suitable low-profile solution.

 

Hmm, I test both 800XL mainboard variants ("standard" 5 chip and "rose" with freddie) and using all cases and mainboards I have the case will fit (with screws fasten on, of course). There´s one keyboard (I don´t know which version yet)  with a metal beading - this combination is very tight and I personally used a file to remove the beading at the point where it touches the ANTIC (on the memory expansion PCB).

 

Maybe there´s a combination I didn´t know of :?:



#53 flashjazzcat ONLINE  

flashjazzcat

    Quadrunner

  • 13,665 posts
  • Location:United Kingdom

Posted Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:54 PM

 

Hmm, I test both 800XL mainboard variants ("standard" 5 chip and "rose" with freddie) and using all cases and mainboards I have the case will fit (with screws fasten on, of course). There´s one keyboard (I don´t know which version yet)  with a metal beading - this combination is very tight and I personally used a file to remove the beading at the point where it touches the ANTIC (on the memory expansion PCB).

 

Maybe there´s a combination I didn´t know of :?:

 

I have no doubt your tests were exhaustive, and indeed it's possible I tested the single keyboard type which caused the top casing to be significantly raised. It would have taken more than filing to allow it to close, but perhaps the owner's keyboard would have been OK, in hindsight. We will never know, unfortunately.

In any case: are all ANTIC signals direct from motherboard source to ANTIC socket on the adapter, or is it technically impossible to sit ANTIC in a recessed precision socket (as per VBXE)?



#54 tf_hh OFFLINE  

tf_hh

    Dragonstomper

  • Topic Starter
  • 660 posts
  • Location:Germany

Posted Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:58 PM

Well I almost pulled the trigger until I realized I need the opposite on the other end of the cable and apparently no one makes a 40P female socket to ribbon adapter. I would need to plug the expansion into a socket at other end. Was liking this idea until I hit that snag and seems like a breadboard soldered with 40 wires to a socket would be bulky and not ideal.

 

Such a solution can also end up in instability issues. The complete buss is connected to the ANTIC and some important clock signals, too. I would no recommend this, when you want a stable running system :)



#55 Nezgar OFFLINE  

Nezgar

    Dragonstomper

  • 896 posts
  • Location:Regina SK Canada

Posted Sat May 5, 2018 2:22 AM

Finally installed the 512KB in my 'rev C' 800XL with alps keyboard tonight... Works great, except it doesn't fit under the keyboard in this case... (the UAV with 4050+stacked socket just fits) I didn't replace the original ANTIC socket, but I don't think replacing with a machine socket would shorten it enough. Maybe it will be better if I swap the keyboard from another 800XL. Otherwise I think the only way is to remove the socket and solder direct to motherboard...

Attached Thumbnails

  • 512a.jpg
  • 512b.jpg
  • 512c.jpg

Edited by Nezgar, Sat May 5, 2018 2:23 AM.


#56 tf_hh OFFLINE  

tf_hh

    Dragonstomper

  • Topic Starter
  • 660 posts
  • Location:Germany

Posted Sat May 5, 2018 3:10 AM

Finally installed the 512KB in my 'rev C' 800XL with alps keyboard tonight... Works great, except it doesn't fit under the keyboard in this case... (the UAV with 4050+stacked socket just fits) I didn't replace the original ANTIC socket, but I don't think replacing with a machine socket would shorten it enough. Maybe it will be better if I swap the keyboard from another 800XL. Otherwise I think the only way is to remove the socket and solder direct to motherboard...

 

Hmm, when you want to go ahead with this, it´s better to remove the ANTIC´s socket and solder the ANTIC directly in. In the U.S. a new ANTIC - if ever needed - is easy and cheap to get.

 

I must say, I think I´ve miscalculated the fit. I´ve tested it in three different 800XL of my personal stock, it works fine (with closed cases). Only the one type of keyboard I already mentioned makes trouble. Maybe the PAL cases are mostly the ones which my expansion fits well in and NTSC not (only a suggestion). There are over 7 different case & mainboard & keyboard variants I know of, of course I can´t test them all.

 

So I make a new version last week, PCBs are already on their way to me. I use the way FJC suggested and like the VBXE "XL version" does it, too. This new model should fit really better in all 800XL and the 600XL, too. I will test it next week and report. If the new solution works better, I will offer the 3 people reporting problems a solution we all can accept. The actual version works and fits fine in all XE variants and the XEGS, too.

 

Jurgen



#57 tane OFFLINE  

tane

    Space Invader

  • 49 posts

Posted Sat May 5, 2018 1:35 PM

Stereo Enhancement

 

Official PDF:

"When stereo mode is enabled, non stereo supporting games and demos just use the left channel."

 

Is there a chance to build a new version where non stereo supporting games use both channels at the same time when stereo mode is enabled?



#58 IndusGT OFFLINE  

IndusGT

    Moonsweeper

  • 391 posts
  • Location:Florida USA

Posted Sat May 5, 2018 2:53 PM

Stereo Enhancement

 

Official PDF:

"When stereo mode is enabled, non stereo supporting games and demos just use the left channel."

 

Is there a chance to build a new version where non stereo supporting games use both channels at the same time when stereo mode is enabled?

Agreed, this would be great!



#59 tf_hh OFFLINE  

tf_hh

    Dragonstomper

  • Topic Starter
  • 660 posts
  • Location:Germany

Posted Sun May 6, 2018 4:10 AM

Is there a chance to build a new version where non stereo supporting games use both channels at the same time when stereo mode is enabled?

 

I made a lot of thoughts about this idea already in 2011, when I create the first version of the stereo enhancement (this time with THT parts and twice as big PCB..). But until today I didn´t found a working solution.

 

To realize this feature, any kind of logic must be able to differ between stereo- and non-stereo applications. My first idea was to use a flip-flop circuit for the mono/stereo switch-input. As long no access to $D21x happens (where the 2nd POKEY is located), the "mono-mode" is active. With the first write access to $D210-$D21F the stereo-mode will be activated. Sounds goods! But... the O.S. writes zeros in the initialization reset subroutine to all I/O addresses over the complete page ($D2xx), so this idea was nice, but useless.

 

So I add another TTL chip (74_123) and use the RESET line for a delay. When RESET goes low, a few milliseconds are waited and a flag was set. Only when this flag was true, the detection of a write access to $D21x is valid. Works fine for the O.S. coldstart, but only for this - or the RESET key is pressed. After trying out how it works I found out, that a lot of games, demos and other stuff just use the mirror addresses for POKEY, too! Even the mono-only, old software. Several games (I didn´t wrote down their names, it was a lot of years ago) access the standard POKEY not using the primary origin at $D200-$D20F, they write to or read from $D280-$D28F or $D230-$D23F or other. This works fine, because the MMU and the 74LS138 I/O selector only splits in pages (256 bytes each) and the whole address space of each I/O chip is mirrored, but makes such a detection much harder that needed.

 

Regarding the need of more chips (ok.. today I would combine them all in one GAL) I dropped this idea, the result wasn´t very satisfying. If anybody has more ideas, you´re welcome!

 

Maybe my next version of the stereo enhancement will be also have an acceptable solution, I planned to simply use the keyboard to switch mono/stereo mode. Any special combination like CONTROL, SHIFT and CAPS for example toggles the mode. Or two different combinations for on/off, ...

 

Jurgen



#60 Nezgar OFFLINE  

Nezgar

    Dragonstomper

  • 896 posts
  • Location:Regina SK Canada

Posted Sun May 6, 2018 12:19 PM

I don't really know how it could be done at hardware level, but I thought mapping the pokey channels alternating left/right instead of sequentially would make software only programmed for 1 pokey play stereo too.

ie
          Before After
Channel 1 left   left
Channel 2 left   right
Channel 3 left   left
Channel 4 left   right
Channel 5 right  left
Channel 6 right  right
Channel 7 right  left
Channel 8 right  right

Edited by Nezgar, Sun May 6, 2018 12:25 PM.


#61 Fox-1 / mnx OFFLINE  

Fox-1 / mnx

    Stargunner

  • 1,556 posts
  • What is your Alternate Reality?
  • Location:NL, Earth 2.0

Posted Sun May 6, 2018 12:35 PM

Certainly possible, and also been done by a few (Robert Demming comes to mind).but it requires some modifications on the PCB to split the audio channels of the first POKEY.



#62 flashjazzcat ONLINE  

flashjazzcat

    Quadrunner

  • 13,665 posts
  • Location:United Kingdom

Posted Sun May 6, 2018 12:40 PM

Maybe my next version of the stereo enhancement will be also have an acceptable solution, I planned to simply use the keyboard to switch mono/stereo mode. Any special combination like CONTROL, SHIFT and CAPS for example toggles the mode. Or two different combinations for on/off, ...


Cough... U1MB BIOS plugin... Cough. :)

#63 Nezgar OFFLINE  

Nezgar

    Dragonstomper

  • 896 posts
  • Location:Regina SK Canada

Posted Thu May 10, 2018 1:55 AM

Hmm, when you want to go ahead with this, it´s better to remove the ANTIC´s socket and solder the ANTIC directly in. In the U.S. a new ANTIC - if ever needed - is easy and cheap to get.

 

Just wanted to report back and say thanks for this tip! I removed the socket from the 512K board, and soldered the ANTIC directly to it. It works, and it fits inside! This is at least better than soldering to the motherboard.

 

Then... My latest problem is when I replaced the 800xl POKEY socket in preparation for the stereo board... I accidentally tore up the top trace for POKEY pin 6, which runs to PIA pin 26, so I replaced that with a jumper wire - but it won't run for more than a few seconds before locking up, Star raiders will run for about 10 seconds then freeze or glitch, and Sys-Check reports good ram initially, but then after 10-30 seconds bad RAM. The RAM checks out OK on another 800XL, and I've now swapped every socketed IC with another board where it all works OK, but not on this board. Also returned to stock ANTIC, and OS ROM... I guess its possible some other trace was damaged I haven't identified yet. It's strange that it runs perfectly initially, which would maybe indicate some component? Maybe something got a static zap while i had it open?


Edited by Nezgar, Thu May 10, 2018 2:16 AM.


#64 tf_hh OFFLINE  

tf_hh

    Dragonstomper

  • Topic Starter
  • 660 posts
  • Location:Germany

Posted Thu May 10, 2018 8:52 AM

Cough... U1MB BIOS plugin... Cough. :)

 

Just to clarify, I already email´d with Jon regarding this... my stereo enhancement can be connected to the U1MB "M1" pin and then Jon´s BIOS will detect a stereo solution and enable/disable it using the BIOS. But this is only possible with performing a RESET. My idea was, if I made a new version, to switch the stereo/mono mode by keyboard using a special, until today unused combination of keys like CTRL, SHIFT and "S" together (for example).



#65 tf_hh OFFLINE  

tf_hh

    Dragonstomper

  • Topic Starter
  • 660 posts
  • Location:Germany

Posted Thu May 10, 2018 8:55 AM

Then... My latest problem is when I replaced the 800xl POKEY socket in preparation for the stereo board... I accidentally tore up the top trace for POKEY pin 6, which runs to PIA pin 26, so I replaced that with a jumper wire - but it won't run for more than a few seconds before locking up, Star raiders will run for about 10 seconds then freeze or glitch, and Sys-Check reports good ram initially, but then after 10-30 seconds bad RAM. The RAM checks out OK on another 800XL, and I've now swapped every socketed IC with another board where it all works OK, but not on this board. Also returned to stock ANTIC, and OS ROM... I guess its possible some other trace was damaged I haven't identified yet. It's strange that it runs perfectly initially, which would maybe indicate some component? Maybe something got a static zap while i had it open?

 

Hmm, when there´s a trace damaged or broken the issues should happen immediately. When there´s bad RAM after 10-30 seconds, but the DRAM chips theirself work fine, any part of the DRAM timing circuit must be defect. Both address decoder 74LS158, the 74LS375 and 74LS51 would be the first parts I would keep an eye to it.



#66 tf_hh OFFLINE  

tf_hh

    Dragonstomper

  • Topic Starter
  • 660 posts
  • Location:Germany

Posted Thu May 10, 2018 9:50 AM

Finally installed the 512KB in my 'rev C' 800XL with alps keyboard tonight... Works great, except it doesn't fit under the keyboard in this case... (the UAV with 4050+stacked socket just fits) I didn't replace the original ANTIC socket, but I don't think replacing with a machine socket would shorten it enough. Maybe it will be better if I swap the keyboard from another 800XL. Otherwise I think the only way is to remove the socket and solder direct to motherboard...

 

Good news :)

 

I´ve made a new version (V4.3) of my 512 KB memory expansion composed of two PCBs like the way VBXE XL does it - thanks again to FlashJazzCart for the hint!

 

I´ve tested this version successfully in all 600XL and 800XL versions I own. All five keyboard variants shown in the thread here fits well. Only two, or better, three things must be observed:

  • When used with the UAV plugin version (Atari 800 XL mainboard), then the UAV must be put onto two sockets instead of one to give space for the memory expansion. Of course I´ve tested this combination with all keyboards mentioned above and it fits well
  • When installed in an Atari 600XL, the modulator must be removed
  • At some keyboards black stripes of rubber are glued on the keyboard´s PCB. In some variants they must be removed.

Some pictures installed in an Atari 800XL:

 

800XL_1.jpg

800XL_2.jpg

800XL_3.jpg

800XL_4.jpg

 

And installed in an Atari 600XL:

 

600XL_1.jpg

600XL_2.jpg

600XL_3.jpg

 

I will made some pieces of the new version ready in the next weeks. Watch out my info PDF as mentioned in this thread (see post #1, at the end of the post)

 

Jurgen



#67 flashjazzcat ONLINE  

flashjazzcat

    Quadrunner

  • 13,665 posts
  • Location:United Kingdom

Posted Fri May 11, 2018 6:04 AM

That turned out really perfect, Jurgen. Excellent stuff. :)



#68 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

Heaven/TQA

    Quadrunner

  • 10,817 posts
  • Location:Baden-Württemberg, Germany

Posted Fri May 11, 2018 11:48 AM

I remember that one of my 1050 was boosted with a 1050 I even could put in back on those days. It was cheaper than speedy/happy but later years I found it annoying to format disks in special format.

I am even not sure if its still working :D does the original hardware not have the same issues like Amiga 1200 with capacitors?

If I would go for today I would get a speedy.

#69 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

Heaven/TQA

    Quadrunner

  • 10,817 posts
  • Location:Baden-Württemberg, Germany

Posted Fri May 11, 2018 11:52 AM

Jürgen... are you sure with 20-25 euro for 512 kB upgrade? ;)

#70 CharlieChaplin OFFLINE  

CharlieChaplin

    River Patroller

  • 2,872 posts

Posted Fri May 11, 2018 12:01 PM

I remember that one of my 1050 was boosted with a 1050 I even could put in back on those days. It was cheaper than speedy/happy but later years I found it annoying to format disks in special format.

I am even not sure if its still working :D does the original hardware not have the same issues like Amiga 1200 with capacitors?

If I would go for today I would get a speedy.

 

That drive must have been rather unique - a 1050 boosted with a 1050...   ;-)

 

Think you mean a 1050 boosted with a Turbo by B.Engl. The simple idea and the speed (68kbaud) was great, alas, the special turbo format was rather annoying...



#71 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

Heaven/TQA

    Quadrunner

  • 10,817 posts
  • Location:Baden-Württemberg, Germany

Posted Fri May 11, 2018 12:04 PM

 
That drive must have been rather unique - a 1050 boosted with a 1050...   ;-)
 
Think you mean a 1050 boosted with a Turbo by B.Engl. The simple idea and the speed (68kbaud) was great, alas, the special turbo format was rather annoying...


Of course I mean the turbo 1050 ;) Engl hardwAre was nice esp the Turbo Freezer...

#72 tf_hh OFFLINE  

tf_hh

    Dragonstomper

  • Topic Starter
  • 660 posts
  • Location:Germany

Posted Fri May 11, 2018 1:13 PM

Jürgen... are you sure with 20-25 euro for 512 kB upgrade? ;)

 

Didn´t understand the intention of this. The price for V4.3 is 3 Euros higher, because I must order two PCBs and a little bit more mechanical stuff. Because the older V4.2 works only well in the XE series, I lower the price down to 20 Euros for that version. If the actual stock of V4.2 is empty, I wouldn´t make V4.2 any longer.



#73 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

Heaven/TQA

    Quadrunner

  • 10,817 posts
  • Location:Baden-Württemberg, Germany

Posted Fri May 11, 2018 1:26 PM

 
Didn´t understand the intention of this. The price for V4.3 is 3 Euros higher, because I must order two PCBs and a little bit more mechanical stuff. Because the older V4.2 works only well in the XE series, I lower the price down to 20 Euros for that version. If the actual stock of V4.2 is empty, I wouldn´t make V4.2 any longer.


I found it cheap.

#74 tf_hh OFFLINE  

tf_hh

    Dragonstomper

  • Topic Starter
  • 660 posts
  • Location:Germany

Posted Fri May 11, 2018 1:44 PM

I found it cheap.

 

:) - I´m just a hobby tinkerer. My goal was not to earn my monthly costs though some hardware offers. The only requirement - demanded by my wife - is that the whole Atari hobby doesn´t had to have influence on the family budget. So all prices are calculated of material costs, Paypal costs, tooling costs (solder tin, desoldering wick, some tools needed etc.pp.). And when there are some Euros left, they are invested in the family or new ideas ;)



#75 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

Heaven/TQA

    Quadrunner

  • 10,817 posts
  • Location:Baden-Württemberg, Germany

Posted Fri May 11, 2018 2:11 PM

Sounds good Plan!





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: 1050, Memory Expansion

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users