Andromeda Stardust Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 I have to give Namco credit: they did do a very good job with the first iteration of the 'Class of...' games - but Namco didn't actually develop the game. More on that further down. As for the hardware, the MAME driver lists it as the following: CPU: Z8S18020VSC ZiLOG Z180 (20MHz part) Graphics: CY37256P160-83AC x 2 (Ultra37000 CPLD family - 160 pin TQFP, 256 Macrocells, 83MHz speed) MEMORY: CY7C199-15VC 32K x 8 Static RAM x 3 (or equivalent ISSI IS61C256AH-15J) OSC: 73.728MHz EEPROM: 93LC46A 128 x 8-bit 1K microwire compatible Serial EEPROM (There's more, but from here on down it's getting into things like diodes and volume pots.) So the hardware is pretty different to the original games - but what's interesting is how it runs the code. I was wrong about Class of 1981 not emulating the games: it does, but the game code has been reverse-engineered and changed a) to accommodate the menu system, and b) out of necessity to make three games that originally ran on similar-but-not-the-same hardware all run on a single Z180-based platform. There's a good description of some of the major changes from the developer (Cosmodog) here; see this link and click the Ms. Pac-Man icon at the top to view it in its original format. It's a really interesting approach to how this could have been done almost 20 years ago while keeping to something at least in the lineage of the original hardware. Z180 CPU. That's amazing. It always felt more authentic to play on these machines than the endless bonanza of ARM or x86 cloned hardware. So the original Pacman ran on a 3.072Mhz Z80, the "Class of '81" runs on a 20Mhz Z180. The original Z80 source code should be compatible with and easily ported to the updated CPU which allows access to more goodies like extended RAM and I/O. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+x=usr(1536) Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Z180 CPU. That's amazing. It always felt more authentic to play on these machines than the endless bonanza of ARM or x86 cloned hardware. Part of that may be down to the crappiness of the hardware typically used on the howevermany-in-1 boards (I really hate those things), but part of it is also likely down to the versions of MAME that were inappropriately hijacked for use implemented on them. Most were based on very early MAME releases with incomplete or less-than-optimal emulation from the late-'90s to early-2000s timeframe - and, making matters worse, a number of these boards had later drivers that postdated the releases in question backported into earlier-version source. This is problematic for a number of reasons, but one of the big ones is that some of the backports were done from source that was released after major architectural changes in MAME. It's easy to see how much of a mess this creates, and why gameplay on these boards generally blows big meaty chunks. So the original Pacman ran on a 3.072Mhz Z80, the "Class of '81" runs on a 20Mhz Z180. The original Z80 source code should be compatible with and easily ported to the updated CPU which allows access to more goodies like extended RAM and I/O. From pawing briefly through the MAME source for the 20pacgal driver as well as Cosmodog's description of what they did (and why) to put together the Class of 1981 software, that pretty much sounds like what happened. Interestingly, it also sounds as though they have something of a client / server model going on underneath the running game for external communication with the hardware itself - whether it's for diagnostics, tweaking parameters, or something else, I don't really know. But if someone's interested in hacking the platform, it could make for an interesting avenue of exploration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Part of that may be down to the crappiness of the hardware typically used on the howevermany-in-1 boards (I really hate those things), but part of it is also likely down to the versions of MAME that were inappropriately hijacked for use implemented on them. Most were based on very early MAME releases with incomplete or less-than-optimal emulation from the late-'90s to early-2000s timeframe - and, making matters worse, a number of these boards had later drivers that postdated the releases in question backported into earlier-version source. This is problematic for a number of reasons, but one of the big ones is that some of the backports were done from source that was released after major architectural changes in MAME. It's easy to see how much of a mess this creates, and why gameplay on these boards generally blows big meaty chunks. From pawing briefly through the MAME source for the 20pacgal driver as well as Cosmodog's description of what they did (and why) to put together the Class of 1981 software, that pretty much sounds like what happened. Interestingly, it also sounds as though they have something of a client / server model going on underneath the running game for external communication with the hardware itself - whether it's for diagnostics, tweaking parameters, or something else, I don't really know. But if someone's interested in hacking the platform, it could make for an interesting avenue of exploration. Thanks for the write up. Playing Ms Pacman on an authentic Pacman / Galaga machine feels like the authentic arcade, at least on the units where the bozo operators didn't enable the "ludicrous speed" setting on it. I have encountered both original Ms Pacman machines as well as Class of '81 machines in public venues before and they felt the same to me, aside from the continue feature. I kinda like being able to play through the baby intermission and "plus" stages which is normally beyond my grasp on a single credit. Galaga is equally awesome. I just gotta learn the secret code to enable Pacman mode. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
negative1 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Galaga from Class of '81 definitely deserves its own entry because there are obvious differences in the way that Galaga plays on an original machine versus the Class of '81 edition. I have never heard of similar play issues with Pac-Man or Ms. Pac-Man as implemented on those machines (except the continue function, which is irrelevant to high scoring), If you compare original Pac or Ms. Pac to Class of '81, the differences are in the physical characteristics of the machines (leaf switch v. micro switch, monitor size). There are many revisions of the 20th anniversary version, and the reunion games. Most of the issues are within the handling of ms pac man killscreens, here's a list of the differences from here: http://www.classicarcadegaming.com/forums/index.php/topic,940.210.html Here's a list I compiled from the times I've reached the killscreen of various rereleases & Multicade compilations: V1.01: Ms. Pac-Man has 14 dots & 2 power pellets on board 142. V1.02: Ms. Pac-Man crashes on board 142. I've finished this game on 3 different machines (same ROM release), and the killscreen looks different on every attempt. Sometimes the High Score isn't saved properly. This is probably the worst ROM revision in this collection of updates. V1.03: Ms. Pac-Man has 4 dots & 1 power pellet on board 142. V1.04: Ms. Pac-Man has 4 dots & 1 blue ghost on board 142. UPDATE: Sometimes the 4 dots, 4 ghosts, and Ms. Pac-Man don't appear at the start of board 142, and crashes. V1.08: Ms. Pac-Man has 4 dots, 1 blue ghost, and a strange looping sound after you die on board 142. V2.00 (Pac-Man 25th Anniversary Edition): Ms. Pac-Man has 8 dots on board 142. 48-in-1: Ms. Pac-Man has 5 dots on board 142. 60-in-1: Ms. Pac-Gal (Ms. Pac-Man (2)). Some of the boards before the killscreen have the following: F, A, C, at a few spots on the board, with the tunnel anomaly in different spots, the border colors are blue and purple, boards 134-137 aren't upside-down and backwards. Board 142 has the word 'STARRING' with 7 dots (hearts) and 1 power pellet. ---------------- not sure about the killscreen issues for galaga and pac-man, i haven't checked those for myself. later -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Hierophant Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Given that dedicated Ms. Pac-Man machines can give a kill screen randomly starting from level 134, I stand corrected. The Ms. Pac-Man/Galaga machine should have its own entry for those two games. That just leaves Pac-Man with its unknown kill screen behavior on the Ms. Pac-Man/Galaga 20th Anniversary machines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+x=usr(1536) Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Given that dedicated Ms. Pac-Man machines can give a kill screen randomly starting from level 134, I stand corrected. The Ms. Pac-Man/Galaga machine should have its own entry for those two games. That just leaves Pac-Man with its unknown kill screen behavior on the Ms. Pac-Man/Galaga 20th Anniversary machines. This one's an interesting corner case. I just fired up Class of 1981 in MAME (the 20pacgal version), and had a few observations: - In the 'standard' Pac-Man MAME drivers ('standard' meaning those emulating original, 1980-release Pac-Man hardware), F1 is mapped to the game's rack advance switch. This doesn't appear in the Class of 1981 control mappings. Could be that the input just isn't mapped, but it could also be that the Co81 version doesn't support that feature. A disassembly would need to be done to determine if the code is still present, but it makes the process of getting to the Pac-Man killscreen a lot more tedious (and less reliable) since it can't be done using a noninvasive method. - As far as invasive methods go, this could possibly be done using the MAME debugger. I call this an invasive method because you'd essentially be patching the game in real time via the debugger to jump to level 256 directly, rather than using an input method (the rack advance switch) that it expects to make that happen. This means that you may be using a method to force the kill screen that would lead to behaviour that would never be seen on a real machine. Then again, given that the real machine may not support the feature that the original had, that may be a moot point. - There are no cheats in MAME for Pac-Man in Class of 1981. Galaga and Ms. Pac-Man, definitely, but none for that one. I'm speculating as to why that may be, but don't have anything solid right now. The reason I mention this is that it means that there is room to figure out a rack advance method that might be workable and document it by way of a cheat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari PAC-MAN Fan Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 (edited) This Regular Show episode predicted the future! https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3977yl FUN FACT: Billy Mitchell sued CN over this episode and lost! Edited July 21, 2018 by Atari PAC-MAN Fan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onemoretime Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 This Regular Show episode predicted the future! https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3977yl FUN FACT: Billy Mitchell sued CN over this episode and lost! I don t see the grounds to sue on account of this episode. I suppose that s why he lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfriendly Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 I just watched it for the first time. No doubt in my mind what the creator was trying to portray. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 This Regular Show episode predicted the future! https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3977yl FUN FACT: Billy Mitchell sued CN over this episode and lost! I just watched it for the first time. No doubt in my mind what the creator was trying to portray. Or the fact King of Kong portrayed Billy Mitchell as the douchebag antagonist and Weebie as the soft spoken hero. What we didn't realize was that Weebie's score being rejected had nothing to do with Mr Awesome's mysterious package, and everything to do with the fact he had an 8-way stick installed on the cabinet, a big no-no. And it makes me pause to wonder if Billy Mitchell was helped or encouraged with his MAME submission in order to provide drama for the film. Lots of red flags with the whole way the CRT had to be displayed in TATE mode as direct capture rather than a camcorder aimed at a screen. And notice the way Billy Mitchell replied when asked if his VHS performance was a real "submission." He hesitated before saying "yes," as if he was unsure of himself. Guilt forever captured on camera... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectorGamer Posted July 30, 2018 Author Share Posted July 30, 2018 Twitch stream of Billy getting a million on DK https://www.twitch.tv/videos/290847896 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynicaster Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 "Billy Mitchell has just scored 1mil in a live DK performance, with verified hardware!" *fart noise* So what, Billy? It's still 60k+ lower than your claimed high score, and a full 200k+ below the current record. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 He walked away from the game at exactly 1M with one man left. That still betters his currently recognized high score of 933,900. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nathan Strum Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 Well, I guess that proves one thing: I have absolutely no interest in watching a video of someone playing Donkey Kong. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynicaster Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 He walked away from the game at exactly 1M with one man left. That still betters his currently recognized high score of 933,900. Yeah, he'll claim that he walked away from the game because "hey, I'm Billy Mitchell," but I bet it had a lot to do with the fact that the very next screen would have been the killscreen anyway, so his scoring pace was 1,010,000 or so, tops. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Cafeman Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 He has stated before he has no interest in mining points in the levels. Jumping over barrels twice for example. I doubt he'd really ever beat the scores of Wes and some others anyway. He might be a fibber but he is not a fraud when it comes to DK skills. The whole MAME / tape thing is super bizarre. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 He has stated before he has no interest in mining points in the levels. If he's not going to go for the record, then what's the point? To prove he's alright at Donkey Kong? Ok, good for you I guess? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Cafeman Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 If he's not going to go for the record, then what's the point? To prove he's alright at Donkey Kong? Ok, good for you I guess? I'm not following the Billy news very closely, but I thought he did it because TG nullified his prior high score. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 Mitchell is banned from twin galaxies. He was asked to do this video stream, maybe paid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+thanatos Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 He only got to level 3 on my CoCo. Hah, I can beat that! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Hierophant Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 If his score is accepted, Billy just improved his ranking on the score board at the donkeykong forums from #48 to #40 with his 1,000,000 points. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyHW Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 Loving all the drama! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimefighter Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 A place that is ran by gamers that ref get their own gamer of year awards, that cannot even compete legit, and don't even show footage!!! Great credibility there Who in bloody hell do you think you are ? I have to submit video for EVERY score I submit at GGA, so shove the attitude bud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimefighter Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 (edited) If he's not going to go for the record, then what's the point? To prove he's alright at Donkey Kong? Ok, good for you I guess? His goal was to redo the scores they claim were fabricated. Or the fact King of Kong portrayed Billy Mitchell as the douchebag antagonist and Weebie as the soft spoken hero. What we didn't realize was that Weebie's score being rejected had nothing to do with Mr Awesome's mysterious package, and everything to do with the fact he had an 8-way stick installed on the cabinet, a big no-no. And it makes me pause to wonder if Billy Mitchell was helped or encouraged with his MAME submission in order to provide drama for the film. Lots of red flags with the whole way the CRT had to be displayed in TATE mode as direct capture rather than a camcorder aimed at a screen. And notice the way Billy Mitchell replied when asked if his VHS performance was a real "submission." He hesitated before saying "yes," as if he was unsure of himself. Guilt forever captured on camera... Ahem - I watched KOK over the weekend for the very first time. No mention of an 8-way joystick. It was ALL ABOUT who sent him the PCB, and Mitchell had a deep personal feud going with Roy Schlidt. However the two guys who barged into his house are lucky they weren't arrested. And they should had been at the least had a stern talking to by Redmond PD. Edited August 3, 2018 by Crimefighter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 I thought the wife let those guys into the house. The movie is not exactly a documentary. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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