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Sega Ages Switch: M2's Sega 3D Classics line coming to the Switch.


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#26 Tanooki OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:51 PM

Not bad if you want a download, but the game itself can be had new/used physical at that price pretty easily already.



#27 Kosmic Stardust OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:20 PM

I always find it funny, people like Flojo flouting digital downloads, when a game that's been in the discount bin for years is still full price in the eShop, aside from the rare sale.

 

And that discount on shelf sitting physical goods is still less expensive after you add the cost of the game media, packaging, and distribution. And if you for whatever reason at any time decide you don't like it or don't want it anymore, trade it in for store cred. Not to mention buying physical new or used keeps products in circulation and ensures that stock will available for future retro gamers...  :D



#28 Flojomojo OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:27 AM

Okay...you buy your cartridges and I'll buy my downloads.

#29 Asaki OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:01 PM

I want the carts, but I don't want to spend $90, especially when I already bought most of the games before they were on cart =|

$15 for Fantasy Zone II and Power Drift? I don't know. Maze Hunter 3D would be interesting to try. It says the Puyo Puyo 2 port is untranslated?

#30 eightbit OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:34 PM

Not to turn this thread into another physical vs digital debate, but pros and cons of digital (as I see it):

 

Pros:

 

No going to the store, purchase and download any game you want from anywhere you are

You can have a large collection of games on the device at once, no swapping carts

Not having to create carts/packaging and deal with shipping and retail...and still make full retail dollars (this is a Pro for Nintendo that is)

 

 

Cons:

 

You can run out of space on your storage medium and may have to delete games just to install others

You cannot share the game with a friend

You cannot sell the game if you want to

You cannot sell the system with the games (as they are tied to your account) if you want to

You cannot have a physical collection of games on a shelf (if you are a collector)

When the eShop closes shop (it will someday...like the Wii shop) you will not be able to download your purchases again. Just hope you didn't invest a lot over the years ;)

 

 

Yeah, the cons are too many for me ;) But, I will purchase cheap digital games (like the Neo Geo stuff, or if a game is under $10) every once in awhile just to play. But no chance in hell if a game is available physically that I would bother paying for it digitally.



#31 Atariboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Sep 8, 2018 6:35 AM

Arcade Space Harrier has been announced.

 

http://www.nintendol...on_switch_eshop

 

Hopefully just the first of many Super Scaler games to come. :)


Edited by Atariboy, Sat Sep 8, 2018 6:35 AM.


#32 dj_convoy OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 9, 2018 11:41 AM

I think it's a conspiracy to see how many times I will be made to buy Harrier in my life.

#33 Flojomojo OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 9, 2018 11:55 AM

Maybe we can get Planet Harriers this time.

https://en.m.wikiped...Planet_Harriers

#34 dj_convoy OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:55 PM

I played Planet Harriers once at a Gameworks. Would love to give it another go.

#35 Atariboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:27 AM

Outrun, Thunder Force III, Sonic the Hedgehog 2, and Columns II have now been announced as well. 

 

http://www.nintendol...ut_run_and_more

 

-Alex Kidd in Miracle World (Master System)

-Columns II (Presumably it's an arcade port rather than a Saturn port)

-Gain Ground (Arcade)

-Outrun (Arcade)

-Phantasy Star (Master System)

-Sonic the Hedgehog (Genesis)

-Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Genesis)

-Space Harrier (Arcade)

-Thunder Force III (Genesis)

-Thunder Force IV (Unclear if it's Saturn or Genesis based; Has features of both)

 

I believe five more remain to be announced for this first wave of releases which will be starting soon. Hopefully Turbo Outrun, a game that M2 is already familiar with like quite a few of these, also makes the cut. 

 

And it's nice to see Outrun here. The Space Harrier trailer shows that it's 16:9 just like on the 3DS, so Outrun will likely retain the new widescreen perspective. And I'm sure the 60 fps mode will also be retained as well. So visually, it will arguably be the best official way to enjoy the game on a modern television.


Edited by Atariboy, Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:00 AM.


#36 travistouchdown OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:55 AM

These are one at a time downloads right?  Wish I had the option to get these on cart!!



#37 Atariboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:08 AM

I believe it's digital distribution of individual games. 

 

But Japan did get collections of all the 3DS material from Sega's 3D Classics initiative and the Switch is region free, so hopefully we'll get some similar retail collections down the road that we can import.

 

I don't hold out hope for Sega's western arm doing the same. Judging by how the 3DS program was mishandled, I suspect we'll be lucky just to get these digitally in a timely manner without having to resort to buying off the Japanese eShop. 


Edited by Atariboy, Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:09 AM.


#38 Atariboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:12 AM

Japan gets Sonic 1 and Thunder Force IV a week from now. Price amounts to approximately $8 or so. 

 

http://www.nintendol...witch_next_week

 

No confirmation yet on when the Western release for these are planned. While not as crucial as it was on the 3DS, I'll be watching that with interest to see if the situation is any better this time around. A near simultaneous release would be nice to see, but would be a pleasant surprise after the way the 3D Classics situation went.

 

And here's an Outrun screenshot. :)

 

wks7dx.jpg

 

I've also heard these will have online leaderboards. That will be a nice feature for some of these classics like Outrun. I for one get a kick out of that feature on classic arcade conversions. 


Edited by Atariboy, Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:56 AM.


#39 Flojomojo OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:03 AM

That's a wider aspect ratio than the original Outrun. Knowing M2, it's reprogrammed, not stretched, which is neat.

#40 Atariboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:08 AM

Yeah, it's clear that this is a Switch port of their 3DS work. 

 

Here's a comparison I've posted at several forums in threads about Sega's 3D Classics line, showing off the 4:3/16:9 modes to show that widescreen was true widescreen on the 3DS port rather than stretched or cropped/zoomed. 

 

post-2825-0-24590400-1456882050.jpg

 

post-2825-0-39856000-1456882067.jpg

 

Unlike the console material, all the arcade conversions in Sega's 3D Classics line were converted to true 16:9 widescreen. Looks like that precedent will be continuing on this Switch lineup where it makes sense (Gain Ground is 4:3, but isn't suitable for 16:9 unlike something like Outrun). 

 

While the console ports haven't gone above and beyond (settling instead for accurate conversions with a few niceties tossed in), M2 pulls out all the stops with their arcade ports. 


Edited by Atariboy, Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:14 AM.


#41 Flojomojo OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:25 AM

That makes sense. I've read a bunch of their developer blogs (translated but I think the meaning comes through) and it sounds like they've broken down all these games and stitched them back together again in a manner similar to what Christian Whitehead did with Sonic or the 3D Classics by Akira. I'll try to find the links if folks hadn't seen them.

I would guess it's less of a "port" from the 3DS version than using the same assets from their prior disassembly work. Small difference from what you said, but I doubt they're reusing 3DS code for the Switch releases.

I'll be getting most of these, I think. The Switch is my favorite platform for new old games.

#42 Atariboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:37 AM

Those blogs seem to be awol on Sega's site, sadly.

 

I tried to find the Outrun series of interviews with the M2 developers yesterday after talking to someone about 60 fps Outrun conversions, since I believe there was a technical explanation in there why the excellent 60 fps smooth option in the Rutubo Games port on the Saturn had a slightly diminished sense of speed (Which M2 were able to overcome with their own 60 fps mode on the 3DS). But I just couldn't find them.

 

Hopefully they consider doing similar interviews again with this Switch line. They were fascinating to read, although with more powerful hardware and not having the challenge of implementing 3D, none of these probably will be as challenging as some of their 3DS projects like Galaxy Force II. 


Edited by Atariboy, Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:44 AM.


#43 Flojomojo OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:43 AM

Segabits archived a bunch of them. I can't find the Outrun one either (I think I remember it too) but I'll poke around some more later. I'll bet we can find it someplace, maybe even saved by me.

http://segabits.com/...h-developer-m2/

#44 travistouchdown OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:04 AM

To me the ugliest thing imaginable on a modern port is a border.  They are garish, unattractive, and distracting from the game-play.  I simply won't buy anything that includes a border or at the very least an option to remove it.

 

I've waited on everything else to come out on cart, so i'm going to do the same for these games.  No cart, no buy.  If I want to play outrun that bad i'll play it on my Saturn or Genesis. 



#45 Flojomojo OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:33 AM

from Archive

https://web.archive....ga-3d-classics/

 

No Outrun though. 

 

I saved Part 2 to Pocket, but not part 1 or 3. Sigh.

 

 

SEGA 3D Classics – 3D Out Run – Part 2
 

We’re back with part 2 of our interview with developer M2 and SEGA of Japan talking about the SEGA 3D Classics. In this section of the interview we look at a few of the new options available in 3D Out Run. Yosuke Okunari (SEGA of Japan) and Naoki Horii (President of M2) aren’t satisfied in just bringing out the best version of Out Run ever, they want to add in a few extras to make it even better. But new options aren’t always so easy to implement, so read on and see how it all came together. Enjoy!

A New Machine That’s Speeder Then The Original With Constant Gear-Gacha!

Yosuke Okunari (below YO): Alright, let’s talk about the “Grantanoff” — the new features, starting with the new songs and then the new car. So for the new song, I’m going to bring Namiki-san in to talk about that, and for the new car, we added an American-style car. And that’s not all. When you think Out Run, you think of a candy apple red sports car, so we’ve gone and mixed things up with a not-candy apple red sports car.

 

Before you start the game, on the attract screen, you can now choose your car on the lower touch screen. The car types are linked to a particular ability, each with an improved aspect over the original car. One has better handling, so it doesn’t drift as hard as the original. The next one has improved fenders so it doesn’t get thrown aside when it runs into other cars. And then there’s the one with the improved engine. It has a higher top speed. And then last but not least, one with improved tires. This improvement allows you to run off the road and not lose speed.

*Check out the 3D After Burner II interview for details about “Grantanoff.”

Naoki Horii (below NH): You’ve probably got it figured out already, but there were a lot of things that had to happen to get each of these power-ups added. For example, raising the top speed with the engine—when you are running at the frame rate of the original Out Run, and you go over the speed of 293 km/h, the amount your car moves around and the collision detection of the objects starts to not match up, and you can clip through things. It’s just too fast (and so the collision isn’t detected in time).

So to get the engine upgrade to work, we had to go in and rework the internal processing quite a bit. Now, your hit collision extends out further in front of your car when you have a high top speed.

– This sounds similar to the glitches that happened when you added the Spin Dash to 3D Sonic The Hedgehog.

NH: That’s right. It’s something we wouldn’t have known about had we not tried to make 3D Out Run.

YO: If you go with the improved engine, your max speed will go to 352 km/h.

– That is quite a power-up.

NH: Oh, it certainly is.

YO: When you speed up the car, the game proceeds quicker as well. As a result, it actually makes handling more difficult.

– I see.

 

YO: Your car will change color or design depending on which parts you choose. This is because I said that I initially said I wanted to add more cars. M2 told me, “With this schedule? Not going to happen.”

– (laughs)

YO: You know, because in Out Run 2 you had a lot of car options. But that said, there wasn’t really much time to design new cars, and since this is an emulation-based game, we can’t really add in a lot of new designs anyway.* There are limitations on data volume and palette, as well, but I pleaded with them to add in at least one. M2 felt that just a single car would be a bit lonely, so they volunteered to change its capabilities.

* In order to add a single car, you need to add in new sprite angles for the left and right side, as well as animations and patterns for crashes.

NH: We have some young designers on staff, and when we first got started with the additional content, they were all like, “Are you sure you don’t want drifting or anything like that?”

– That’s the striking difference between Out Run and Out Run 2. That and the fact they were different generations of games.

YO: Well, we weren’t looking to change the gameplay for this first-generation Out Run, but we still wanted something that brought a new flavor to the game. So this is what we have.

– Two body types, and some different colors.

 

YO: When you use the upgraded parts, the timing for avoiding other cars changes. If you powered up everything, it would probably get pretty easy. But if you don’t equip every part, and say just go with the engine, you will notice you fishtail all over the place, and it’s pretty fun. Each part makes the game a little different, and I hope everyone finds the fun in that.

– Well this sounds like it’ll be fun. Not only does the car behavior change, but the difficulty changes as well.

YO: There is separate save data for “Normal” and “Tuned,” as well. You’ll get more parts every time you cross the goal line, so the more you clear the game, the easier it gets (laughs). So your first goal might be the hardest one. For those who think it’s too hard, you can lower the difficulty and remove the other cars from the road. Or save halfway through. In any case, just try to get through to the finish line, collect all the parts, and have fun trying them all.

For the tires you get at the very end, it basically puts you into a state where you’re basically always using the gear gacha trick. Scitron* put out a strategy video long time ago about the SEGA “physical experience” games, which included Out Run. They played through the full game using the gear gacha technique, pretty much off the road the whole time. We made it so you can try that yourself without having to use the gear gacha technique, because it’s an automatic gear gacha machine. But of course there’s obstacles like rocks and whatnot, so you have to have an understanding of what lies outside the course. If you get into it, it becomes an entirely different game. (laughs)

* Scitron is a Japanese multimedia company that was known in the 80s for their video game soundtrack publications.

– It’s its own kind of fun. The gear gacha technique is really hectic, and not having to do it is easier on your hardware.

YO: If you’re the type who actually wants to do the gear gacha yourself, you can go to the Input Settings and set the gear type to “Hold.” This will make it so the gear is set to LO when the button is held, and HI when it’s released. Or if you set it to “Switch,” repeatedly pressing the button will switch between LO and HI gear, so try and see which one you like. And I should note that there are four parts that you can get, and when you get to the ending the 5th time, one additional thing will be unlocked. That’s the “Arcade” Mode. I mentioned this earlier, but this mode lets you play a faithful reproduction of the original running at 30 FPS.

NH: Actually, that’s not all. Most of the bugs we fixed for this port that were in the arcade version come back.

– Reverting to its ancestral form, I suppose.

YO: For example, there’s actually a bug in the original arcade version and the previous ports—the displayed times are wrong. This time around, the way Arcade Mode records sectional times is the same as the original, while the Special version has this bug fixed. So even if you race the exact same way in the two modes, your times will differ slightly.

NH: Specifically, the time counter and the lap time counter use different calculations. The counter on screen counts 60 frames as one second, while the lap time counts 64 frames as one second, so there’s a 4-frame difference.

YO: The fun in Out Run is all about running through these courses over and over, so there are a lot of elements you can enjoy—whether that’s the differences between the Japanese and Overseas versions, or the spec differences between the Normal and Tuned cars, or even the internal differences between the Special and Arcade versions. There’s a lot of gameplay to be had here. You times are recorded at every checkpoint, so you can even have fun doing speed runs.

By the way, when we were talking about the “Grantanoff” for this game, there was an idea that was similar to Super Hang-On’s World Mode where you could run all 15 courses one after another. We actually went as far to build it out, but killed it in the end.

After putting it in, we found out it was actually really boring. It made me realize how crucial the forks in the road were to Out Run’s game rhythm.

 

NH: The road forks are what make Out Run a really tight game.

YO: But since we went through the trouble of making it, there was also a discussion of just putting it in anyway. But the director, Matsuoka-san, was very strongly against it.

NH: I wanted to include it because we had put quite a lot of time into it, but even if we left the forks in there, you drive through the same locations in the end no matter which way you go, which seems pointless. So we just ended up cutting it.

YO: We ultimately couldn’t make it more interesting than the normal game. The fun in Out Run is all about starting from the beginning each time and driving through the different branches. We really didn’t have a choice.

NH: We talked about how nice it would be to create a course editor, but then what would we do about the finish lines?

– If you edit them, then you would have been able to connect the courses in ways they’ve never been connected before.

YO: It’s an issue of whether the end result is fun enough to justify the work involved. We also want to make sure it doesn’t undermine what makes Out Run fun. Those who have tried 3D Super Hang-On’s World Tour mode might have been looking forward to it, but it just didn’t make it this time. If it’s something you wanted to try, I’m sorry!

– There were some people who thought there would be a mode where you could play all 15 courses. Or thought there’d be an editor that allowed you to tweak the car graphics.

YO: We actually looked into that a bit. But even though it’s an old game, there’s quite a few patterns you’d have to create!

NH: And if you don’t understand how palettes work, you can’t make anything anyway.

YO: We even discussed taking polygon based cars and allowing people to edit the textures, and then converting those into pixel versions. (laughs)

NH: The moving tires are animated through the palette, so it would get really complicated. (laughs)

– Oh, wow, you guys really put some thought into it.

 

YO: The point is: Is it interesting as new content? How does it extend the game’s fun? For Out Run, in the end we settled on making it so you could drive various types of cars.

NH: I think you’ll find it feels really nice if you give it a play.

YO: If you were one of those people played it back in the day, you’ll be able to get a taste of what made old driving games fun.

NH: It’s a different kind of fun from games created with polygons.

– A fun not found in modern racing games

Stay Tuned – The Interview Continues on Monday

Thanks for staying to check out part 2 of our interview with developer M2 and Sega of Japan for our SEGA 3D Classics. Starting Monday we dive into the interview with Manabu Namiki and focus on the sound and music design.



#46 Flojomojo OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:35 AM

To me the ugliest thing imaginable on a modern port is a border.  They are garish, unattractive, and distracting from the game-play.  I simply won't buy anything that includes a border or at the very least an option to remove it.

 

I've waited on everything else to come out on cart, so i'm going to do the same for these games.  No cart, no buy.  If I want to play outrun that bad i'll play it on my Saturn or Genesis. 

Black bars are OK. You're not talking about them, right?

 

I don't own a single Switch cartridge. In fact, I've never touched one. Haven't owned Outrun on physical media since Coast To Coast 2006 but I can play it on a whole mess of different systems. Vive la difference.



#47 Austin OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:59 PM

To me the ugliest thing imaginable on a modern port is a border.  They are garish, unattractive, and distracting from the game-play.  I simply won't buy anything that includes a border or at the very least an option to remove it.

 

I've waited on everything else to come out on cart, so i'm going to do the same for these games.  No cart, no buy.  If I want to play outrun that bad i'll play it on my Saturn or Genesis. 

 

Here you go, sweetheart. This one is just for you:

6000198484042.jpg



#48 Kosmic Stardust OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:31 PM

To me the ugliest thing imaginable on a modern port is a border.  They are garish, unattractive, and distracting from the game-play.  I simply won't buy anything that includes a border or at the very least an option to remove it.

 

I've waited on everything else to come out on cart, so i'm going to do the same for these games.  No cart, no buy.  If I want to play outrun that bad i'll play it on my Saturn or Genesis. 

I respectably disagree. I would rather have a small rectangular border than assinine Stretch-O-Vision, or even non-integer scaling that either blurs pixels or causes shimmering artifacts on the screen.



#49 travistouchdown OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:39 AM

black borders are fine :)  It's this crap I can't take: 

 

digdug1.jpg

 

The game looks better on an Atari 7800 for chrissake


Edited by travistouchdown, Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:39 AM.


#50 Flojomojo OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:49 AM

That looks like the Switch version of Namco Museum. Thank goodness for 'tate mode.




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