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New and innovative analog controls mod for the 5200 using Atari paddles

Paddles analog joystick

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#1 ave1 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:57 AM

Got something unique for everyone here who might want to try a really different analog control method which is effective on a good number of 5200 games. This mod brings a new purpose to your Atari 5200-compatible Wico Command Control Splitter cable along with your 2600 analog paddles.



This project goes a step beyond just modding a 5200 controller to have a paddle added in place of the joystick which many have accomplished over the past number of years. It allows for two paddles to be utilized simultaneously on certain games that might use two fire buttons (ie. Moon Patrol, Tempest, Dreadnaught Factor) or on games that have only one fire button, but two axes of motion in action (ie. River Raid). I'm figuring this way of control is new territory for all Atari fans, which could give just about anyone here a new desire to retry some of the old favorite games they may not have plugged in for quite a while.

5200 games are really quite unique when compared to the games of the other 80's game systems because of the analog aspects of its controllers. This mod takes advantage of that, and gives you a totally unique and fun avenue to breathe new life into some of the classics. Enjoy :)


Edited by ave1, Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:39 AM.


#2 0078265317 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:06 PM

Nice

#3 0078265317 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:09 PM

https://www.ebay.com...4MAAOSwpzdWstBZ.

Would this work wwith bohoki adapter also?

#4 0078265317 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:01 PM

Just baught cool looking thing.

https://www.ebay.com...872.m2749.l2649

#5 ave1 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:03 PM

I like the look of that gamepad... Reminds me of the Saturn 3D gamepad.

 

I don't know if the wheel will work.  I only have one PC steering wheel and I know it works (though the pedals do something unexpected- right pedal moves the joystick up from center while the left pedal moves the joystick down from center.) The wheel does move things left and right, though. 



#6 bohoki OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:55 PM

the thrustmaster fusion uses a driver and came with a usb adapter and its complexity makes it incompatable with the gameport to 5200 adapter (i have 3 of them) let me know if you would like the pinout to adapt it to usb

 

the steering wheel would probably work it has a ps2keyb passthrough to allow it to use keyboard for more  buttons but steering wheels are not fun because the 5200 uses fire button for gas and brake so you have to use the pedals for hi-low shift it looks like a good idea but its not a high-scoring controller

 

 

also if any of you are waiting for an adapter from me hang in there



#7 0078265317 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:07 PM

Will it fry if I try to use it on 5200 or just not work at all.

#8 Swami OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:36 PM

I like the look of that gamepad... Reminds me of the Saturn 3D gamepad.

 

I don't know if the wheel will work.  I only have one PC steering wheel and I know it works (though the pedals do something unexpected- right pedal moves the joystick up from center while the left pedal moves the joystick down from center.) The wheel does move things left and right, though. 

The PC's almost always use up for accelerate and down for braking in racing games. This is a hidden default on the PC and of some other racing games, such as some PS2 games. Meanwhile, shifting is often in L2/R2 or L3/R3 on the PS2. A wheel with on-board button reassignment would be necessary to get the Fire1/Fire2 functions to the pedals and up and down to the gear-shift.  I have no idea if they would work, but the Mad Catz MC2 wheel for PSX/PS2 has fairly extensive on board button reassignment. As such, I am able to use my Mad Catz MC2 wheel with Pole Position II on the 7800 and Enduro on the 2600, among others, with the Paul Wellingham PS2 --> Amiga adapter (requires Seagull 78 adapter with 7800 to get both buttons). The Wellingham adapter also has button reassignment programming, so I don't remember if I needed that for reassigning D-pad up/down or not. I'll have to try it with my Innovation Smart Joy analog adapter as well as the Wellingham adapter + Amiga-->15pin PC adapter from ebay. It should work either way with the Wellingham adapter plugged into the Amiga-->15pin PC adapter from ebay (or the Masterplay clone), although, again, I suppose the steering will be digital. I think the MadCatz MC2 appeared to be the best, overall, because, in addition to button reassignment, it also has on-board sensitivity and dead-zone adjustment. But I'll try to test it this weekend and get back.



#9 0078265317 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:18 PM

Will this work for any games with masterplay.

https://www.ebay.com...8.c100689.m4649

#10 ave1 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:48 PM

Sounds good Swami.

0078265317, I would doubt that the mouse you showed would give any analog responses, but it may be able to give digital responses and maybe then work in all games (except the ones that are like Missile Command & Super Breakout)... But somehow I have my doubts that it will work.

#11 ave1 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:22 PM

Today I tried the pair of paddles velcro'd together shown in my video to play Pole Position. One paddle steered and had an acceleration button, while the other had the analog paddle selecting high/low gear and the button was a brake. It seemed you had to dial around the paddle more than an inch or two in order for the gear to be changed from low to high or vice versa. This made gear selection a bit less than ideal. The steering was really nice, though.

I also tried Star Trek Strategic Operations Simulator and managed to get only to sector 2.2. With an actual 5200 joystick I had a much easier time attaining the ship's high speed and thus didn't lose the game until sector 3.3.

When it comes to the 5200 version of Star Trek, unfortunately with controller movement the ship spins on its axis with no semblance of analog control (just digital movement) which really doesn't allow a paddle player to have any real advantage over a joystick player. Oh well.

Onwards to the next couple games...


Edited by ave1, Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:25 PM.


#12 Swami OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 1, 2018 11:33 AM

The MadCatz MC2 did not work directly on the Innovation SmartJoy PS2-->PC gameport adapter. Appears to be not enough power getting to it, since it worked okay with the PS2 dualshock and PS2 UltraRacer. I did manage to nagivate my SD cart menu to Pole Position with the d-pad on the wheel, but could not get anything to happen in the game. I could try rigging up a power splice from a powered usb hub, but not thrilled at the idea. I may instead try using a PS2 to PS3 and PS3 to PS2 adapter in between, so I can use a pre-made usb power splicer to power the wheel. I doubt the PS2 multi-tap would work as a power splice, since when I've tried it in the past, it seems to somehow absorb most of the added power itself, or at least only allow a minumum amount to travel to adjacent ports.

 

Still have to try the digital method on the Amiga to PC gameport adapter hooked up to the bohoki adapter, although this won't be as ideal. I have an xcm swapper adapter that swaps around all the buttons and analog sticks on a PS3, I could try that with my Logic3 TopDrive wheel which is PS2/PS3/USBPC compatible, although that is quite a string of adapters for a few game applications and the xcm swapper is a pretty obscure product.

 

It would be ideal if there were a swapper made for the PC gameport. However, I doubt such a thing exists, since like most PC racing wheels, on-board programming with the wheel or an adapter were not a practical device, since all the programming could be handled by separately loaded PC software and drivers. I did a quick search for such an adapter and ended up in posts about arduinos and ubuntu, which I've never ventured into.



#13 Swami OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 1, 2018 12:12 PM

Will this work for any games with masterplay.

https://www.ebay.com...8.c100689.m4649

I would agree that the mouse probably won't work. The SegaRetro entry on the Sega Mouse says that it supported only a few games on the Genesis console it was made for, which would indicate the games would need the software to use the mouse programmed into them and the mouse would not work or be recognized for anything else. My guess is, you might see the buttons work, but no directional movement, like with the other console mouse (I think it was an N64 mouse you used, or was it the Sega mouse, in a different setup with the Wiimote?)



#14 bohoki OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 1, 2018 11:34 PM

Will it fry if I try to use it on 5200 or just not work at all.

no destruction it just does nothing

 

i also must applaud ave for his use of the breakout d-sub years ago i wanted to use those but they were so expensive like $15 each but thanks to china i think you can get them for like $2 for the ones without the houseing

 

if the peeps could round up an extension cord they could make the same thing with a dsub 15 female and wire it to a 9 pin male

and forgo the wico y cable

 

the paddle shelf mount is cool it looks like a starwars arcade cab


Edited by bohoki, Tue May 1, 2018 11:44 PM.


#15 Swami OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 2, 2018 9:11 AM

First, the success: the MadCatz MC2 wheel for PS2 worked fully in digital and NeGCon mode when using the following setup: bohoki adapter + amiga-->PC gameport adapter + Wellingham PS2-->amiga adapter + Mad Catz wheel. Wheel, pedals and shifter worked after on board setup and minimizing deadzone. One note: the wheel is supposed to have re-centering, but this did not seem to work. You may have a slight pull to the left or right with my setup, like a car out of alignment, since there are no trims and I had to adjust the motherboard pot. This should also work with the Masterplay Clone, and since the Masterplay Clone has trims, you can probably fix any left/right pull. The NeGCon mode seemed to have variable steering intensity depnding on how far you turned the wheel, but not sure how "analog" it can be with this setup.

 

Maybe someone can comment on how well the actual NeGcon controller works with Pole Position on the Masterplay clone with a PS2 to 9pin adapter, since I don't have a Masterplay clone. Also, if it can provide true analog with the NeGCon or Mad Catz MC2 in NeGCon mode in the Masterplay Clone's paddle mode.

 

The third mode on the MadCatz MC2 is analog mode. This is designed to make use of in-game setup, so nothing works with my setup in this mode.

 

Now for partial success:

 

With the Innovation Smart Joy PS2-->PC gameport adapter, I was able to get the MadCatz wheel working with the following setup: bohoki + Innovation + Brooks PS3-->PS2 + USB spliiter cable with one side for power + powered USB hub connected to power lead and PS2--> PS3 adapter coonected to other lead + Mad Catz wheel.

 

The first issue here is that the wheel really wants to stay in analog mode. You press the mode button and it flashes to digital and back to analog over and over. Analog is the mode you do not want, because the steering works, but the pedals do not. You need to use a button for gas and brake. With A LOT of patience you might get it to stick in digital or NeGcon mode and then the pedals will work. By "a lot" I mean quickly tapping the mode button, 1/50 times it might go from analog to digital and 1/1000 times it might go from analog to NeGCon. You can get real analog steering with NeGCon. Not sure if there is a solution to this issue or why it wants to stay in analog mode.

 

The second issue is that with this setup, there is a large pull to the left and up. In this case, it cannot be centered even with the motherboard pot and nothing in this setup has trims. You can still steer it enough to play well with a slight alignment issue, but the upward pull makes it so you cannot shift into high gear.

 

You might be able to fix the second issue with a trimming pot or capacitor added to the bohoki adapter, but the first problem (not wanting to switch from analog to NeGCon mode) is a real nuisance and I don't know why it keeps returning to analog mode. Remember that analog mode on this wheel uses in-game setup, so the pedals would not work and, at best, you would have to use buttons on the wheel for gas and brake.



#16 bohoki OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 2, 2018 1:14 PM

when i had a steering wheel i had most fun with gorf and moon partol

 

with moon patrol i kind of imagined the steering wheel like one of them valves on a submarine they need to turn when they are being depth charged

 

and with gorf its a full body work out using one foot on the brake one on the gas  to go up and down and to wheel left and right



#17 Swami OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 2, 2018 2:38 PM

when i had a steering wheel i had most fun with gorf and moon partol

 

with moon patrol i kind of imagined the steering wheel like one of them valves on a submarine they need to turn when they are being depth charged

 

and with gorf its a full body work out using one foot on the brake one on the gas  to go up and down and to wheel left and right

Do you think I could add resistance pots or variable capacitors to the x and y lines so we don't have to be adjusting the motherboard pot for different non-trim devices. For instance, I have to adjust it to use the SNES clone gravis pad I bought, which has no trims. Also, some things, like the Gamester Phoenix Revolution gamepad and the Max Shooter keyboard/mouse adapter have pulls left and up or slightly right that I can't get rid of with the motherboard pot when using the Innovation PS2-->PC adapter for analog response, like with the steering wheel. I just keep the lid off my 5200 nowadays and stick a piece of straw in the cart to defeat the cart lock. I suppose the simple thing is to just not use these things without trims, but it would be great to be able to access them if we could add some kind of trims like on the Masterplay Clone or many PC gameport controllers.



#18 bohoki OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 2, 2018 7:08 PM

i have not experimented with your devices i suggest setting the internal adjuster with an original controller and missile command

 

then try with that device and see what it is doing



#19 ave1 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri May 4, 2018 2:29 AM

All the responses here are quite interesting to consider. Regarding the issue of having to mess with the actual 5200 potentiometer, I have thought about ways around that. Something possibly worth trying is to try connecting things up to a switcher gameport multitap (housing 3 gameport sockets). I have one of these. In theory you could put a controller that has trims in port one and have a trimless controller in port two. Switching from port one to port two and messing with those trims may get you somewhere. Haven't tried any experiments with it, but I will...

#20 ave1 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri May 4, 2018 2:29 AM

Oh, and bohoki, I have considered using the shelf to make a Star Wars Arcade controller of some type, but ultimately chose not to because the PC flight yoke that I have (plugged into the PC to 5200 controller adapter you made me) is already quite sufficient for providing a close-to-the-arcade experience. That'll be shown in my next episode of Wired-up Retro.


Edited by ave1, Fri May 4, 2018 3:04 AM.


#21 Swami OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri May 4, 2018 2:48 PM

All the responses here are quite interesting to consider. Regarding the issue of having to mess with the actual 5200 potentiometer, I have thought about ways around that. Something possibly worth trying is to try connecting things up to a switcher gameport multitap (housing 3 gameport sockets). I have one of these. In theory you could put a controller that has trims in port one and have a trimless controller in port two. Switching from port one to port two and messing with those trims may get you somewhere. Haven't tried any experiments with it, but I will...


I made some progress on a trimming box using a pair of male and female db15 breakout boards and a pair of 500k pots. I tried a pair of 0.22 uf caps parallel to the other two on the bohoki adapter to reduce the capacitance to 0.11uf but it was not low enough to center the mouse. So, I removed the caps from the adapter and just used the pots. This worked fairly well, although I may want to add back smaller caps as I test many more games and controller setups to find a setup all around best. However, away on vacation now.

#22 Swami OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun May 13, 2018 6:03 PM

Just an update: I removed the x-axis 0.22uF cap from one of my bohoki adapters and made a box with a 500k pot in series with y, 1000k pot with x and a 68nF cap in parallel with x that can be increased to 206nF with a switch. So far works well with everything on 5200, including the mouse/keyboard setup with missile command, centipede, river raid, pole position, and gyrus to name a few. Got it working with the innovation smart joy adapter with the ps2 MC2 wheel with no added power, except can't get the Hi/Lo shift to work with this or the PS2 Ultraracer, although it works with the dual shock controller. Making readjustments to trim pots can be a bit of a pain. Now, just need to see if I can figure out the pole position shifting with the MC2 and PS2 ultraracer. Something really weird going on, on PS2 ultraracer gear stays high (down) and will go to low by pressing up button, but will goes back to high when you release button...MC2 just stays in low irregardless of what you do.

 

An advantage of not needing to use the ps2--> ps3 and ps3 --> ps2 adapters to add usb power is it now doesn't stick on "analog mode and I can switch to digital and NeGCon modes easily. One of those was causing it to stick in analog mode where I can't use the pedals.

 

Edit: Actually, everything was tested with a 50K pot for x for better fine tuning. Added the 1000k pot on x only when wrestling with pole position with MC2 with the innovation smart joy ps2 to 15pin PC adapter. Also, I should mention my current mouse/keyboard setup is bohoki --> innovation --> Brooks PS3 to PS2 --> usb splitter with usb hub power --> Mayflash universal adapter --> Mayflash Max Shooter Pro for Xbox 360 --> usb mouse/keyboard. This is the only PC mouse/trackball setup I've used that can do a decent job with missile command with the innovation PS2 --> 15pin PC adapter (except the original trackball, of course).

 I'll need to try some joystick mouse setups with a DB9 --> bohoki setup.

 

Edit 2: Last post in this thread confirms my issue of analog only with the ps2--> ps3 and ps3 --> ps2 adapters to add usb power:

 

https://www.gtplanet...it-work.200606/

 

Update 3: Got every MC2 mode working (digital, analog and NeGCon) in both modes on the innovation adapter (NeGCon and Gamepad) by using the PS2 multitap and using the SpeedLink Redeemer as an extra power source. Can also use the shifter to shift gears. However, the pedals only work in digital mode and don't work in NeGCon mode for some reason. I'll try my Logic3 TopDrive next.



#23 ave1 OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon May 14, 2018 10:51 PM

Really cool. I am amazed at how you got games to work by the chaining of such a long series of adapters. I'll have to look into getting some of these... Like that 360 Max Shooter. I already own that Brooke PS3 to PS2 controller adapter, so I'm getting there.

#24 Swami OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 15, 2018 7:36 AM

Really cool. I am amazed at how you got games to work by the chaining of such a long series of adapters. I'll have to look into getting some of these... Like that 360 Max Shooter. I already own that Brooke PS3 to PS2 controller adapter, so I'm getting there.


Well, after the chain from the 5200 to the Wii controller and then then to the Wii classic controller, anything seems possible.  :)  Im thinking that with a trim box like I described, you could probably use your SpeedLink Redeemer or xp joybox/Xbox smartjoy for centipede, millipede and missile command, in addition to the digital games. Of course, you would need a spare bohoki to cut the caps off of. Still havent found an xp joy box, so I cant say what cap values would be best for x and y. Eventually, I'll post a schematic of the best final one. Maybe the speed link Redeemer and Xbox smartjoy/xp joybox combo may have similar speeds, so I could test the former to get a general idea of the cap values to slow the other down down to a good speed - or maybe the redeemer will work well with all the games and you could just use that - this has been kind of a meandering adventure, so the first one you got working (the SpeedLink Redeemer) may end up the most convenient to buy and use with the trim box - but once I slow it down, I may find there is jitter or spastic movement in the trackball games, like with the PS2 max shooter, so never can tell.

Im kind of shocked at how the prices of some of these devices have increased in the last year, like the mayflash universal adapter and there seem to be no used ones on line anymore.

 

One thing I'd like to mention is that Gyruss is a lot of fun with a mouse if you have the room because the ship follows the path you trace out with the mouse.



#25 bohoki OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 15, 2018 10:57 AM

i'm really proud of you swami since you have come this far on modifications i wonder if you would want to go a little further

 

sorry i use so much glue on the plug end but you will need to carefully cut some away to get to pin #12 run a length of wire down to the pc connection and use a switch to allow it to do the job of pin so you will want the wire coming from pin 9 on one side of the switch pin 12 on the other and the center pin attach it to the place where you detached pin 9 (the pc controllerconection pin 1 i think)

 

why do this?

 

well it will put the atari in tracball mode that adds some neat features  like it will allow pole position to switch gears with the keypad

and on missile command the cursor will still move super quick but it will stay where you leave it instead of snapping back to center

 

in theory that mod should not harm the 5200 but i can not be held responsible for your soldering skills or age of the machine or the devices you attach so it is at your risk

 

 

when i sold on ebay i had a bunch of joysticks with a throttle and i made special adapters that switched the Y axis with the throttle axis so people could use the little lever as the shifter lever so out there ten 5200 owners have that one

 

a person could go crazy with all the other options with switches i generally like to keep an adapter simple

 

but my personal prototype has switches to use button 3 as 1 ,button 4 as 2 ,swap throttle for Y,swap rudder for x

 

i never use it i just want to plug in my gravis gamepad press the little start button and play digdug


Edited by bohoki, Tue May 15, 2018 11:04 AM.






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