Baby Pac-Man

[Kurt_Woloch]

Well... I do see a difference between the ghosts behavior between arcade and classic, the main difference being that in the arcade setting, the ghosts often turn around and go back and forth while on the classic setting they usually don't turn around and move somewhat more goal oriented.

 

As for the hole trick, in principle this is an intended behavior... sort of. At first I had it so that the ball just hits the hole, but people complained that it was too easy to hit the hole, so I amended the hole handler a bit. As of now, the ball only really is captured by the hole if it hits it pretty much spot on, but as soon as it's over the edge of the hole, it gets drawn into the hole. However, if it's on the edge of the hole, that draw is not enough to really capture it, so its trajectory is only a bit amended. But that "amendment" turned out as the very fast circling of the hole you observed, still I left it in because it definitely does make it harder to hit the hole, and I think it's kinda cool too.

 

As for the speed and slowdown issues... would it be possible for you to shoot a video that compares the behavior on the old and new 7800 so we can see how exactly this looks like?

 

I can't really tell a difference in the Ghosts behavior between arcade and classic? Has that been fully implemented yet?

 

Pinball section -

 

So I might just suck at this part but I'm usually pretty decent with pinball games in general. But I seem to lose the ball almost immediately upon launch about 1 in 3 times. Basically it will launch and hit that left bumper as just the right angle to immediately drain straight down the center. I also had the ball do something really strange once when it hit the upper left pit target. Normally when the ball get anywhere near those, it will just drop in, rack up some points and pop right out. But once last night the ball literally rounded the pit crazy fast and sling shot off to the right straight across the screen! It was actually really cool to see because I suppose that could happen in actual physics on a real table, but I've never seen that replicated on a simulated pinball game. I'm not sure it was supposed to do that anyway but thought I would mention it.

 

Now...here is something VERY odd I discovered while using two different 7800s with this last night. I have an original '84 made unit, an '86 made unit and I have a later '87 made unit currently being modded on the bench. Well the original '84 and '86 versions both play the game very smoothly. But the later made '87 model would exhibit slight but noticeable slow down in the maze at various times? Also seems like the pinball portion didn't play as smooth on this later made '87 unit. The '87 made unit does have the extra components in place for the timing circuit fix. So I'm not sure if that has something to do with it? I did try it both with C64 removed from circuit and in circuit and didn't see much difference. But there was a difference between those revisions in how the game played.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Well... I do see a difference between the ghosts behavior between arcade and classic, the main difference being that in the arcade setting, the ghosts often turn around and go back and forth while on the classic setting they usually don't turn around and move somewhat more goal oriented.

 

As for the hole trick, in principle this is an intended behavior... sort of. At first I had it so that the ball just hits the hole, but people complained that it was too easy to hit the hole, so I amended the hole handler a bit. As of now, the ball only really is captured by the hole if it hits it pretty much spot on, but as soon as it's over the edge of the hole, it gets drawn into the hole. However, if it's on the edge of the hole, that draw is not enough to really capture it, so its trajectory is only a bit amended. But that "amendment" turned out as the very fast circling of the hole you observed, still I left it in because it definitely does make it harder to hit the hole, and I think it's kinda cool too.

 

As for the speed and slowdown issues... would it be possible for you to shoot a video that compares the behavior on the old and new 7800 so we can see how exactly this looks like?

 

 

I can try and take some footage sure. I'm not sure how noticeable it will be in video as the game is such a twitch game it was something In noticed while playing it. The main problem is the control issues I spoke of in the maze section. It isn't consistent so it hasn't been something I can make happen on queue. It just happens that I'm more used to pressing in the next direction slightly before I get to that point and with this that frequently doesn't work and it just seems to miss it completely and continue on straight. The sluggishness in gameplay I thought was also more noticed in the maze portion. Especially when returning from the pinball part when the ball drains. It is like the game takes a second or two to catch up on what it needs to do get up to speed.

 

So difficult to explain this...

[PacManPlus]

Now see that's strange to me.

 

The hundreds of times I've play tested this (both in emulation and on real hardware) I've never had that issue. I always tend to press the direction before the turn as well (to do well in Pac games you *need* to do that). I'm not saying that it isn't a real issue, I am just unable to duplicate it. Those are the worst issues to find.

 

Has anyone else noticed this?

 

Also regarding the Monster AI, yes there is a definite difference; Kurt touched on one of them (they don't reverse), and the other is they act like their 'color' counterpart in the earlier Pac games (i.e. Pac-Man, Ms. Pac-Man, etc,) with the exception of the green monster, who acts like Pinky.

I may add the few seconds of randomness to that AI (like Ms. Pac-Man does) to avoid patterns.

Edited December 19, 2018 by PacManPlus

[AtariBrian]

Maybe the best way to truly check that issue is if you have a true 4 way and 8 way joystick controller .

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Maybe the best way to truly check that issue is if you have a true 4 way and 8 way joystick controller .

I don't believe I own just a 4-way only controller. But I did test this with the same thing happening with both my Danthwader NES style 7800 controller (The one I primarily use) and with my Tac-2. But it was worse in emulation when I first was playing it that way. In fact it was one of the reasons why I stuck it onto my mateos was to see if the issue was one of emulation or not. Tried with both Mess 7800 emulation and the old Prosystem emulator. Prosystem seem to do it more often or at least I noticed it more often under that emulator.

 

But it was also happening on at least 2 of the different 7800s that I tried this with. I don't remember if it happened with my original '84 made unit as I noticed playing on it was more smooth overall in regards to how the gameplay was between the different models.

[Trebor]

Has anyone else noticed this?

 

Controller recognition and response, I have not noticed any problems. It includes playing with a Genesis Gamepad via Edladdin adapter and an original Proline with modified/shorten joystick shaft and ball top.

 

However, I did come across some slight occasional slowdowns when I combined the above Proline joystick through an Edladdin adapter. Additionally, other quirky behavior including the button(s) registering as held down (I.E. Immediate bypass of title screen, straight to options, and Vid mode had flippers held in upright position always). Believed this to be understandable as adapter was being utilized not as intended, paired with a Proline controller.

 

Removing the Edladdin adapter and connecting the Proline direct removed all aforementioned issues. No problems with a Sega Genesis (6 button) pad connected through the adapter (As expected).

[imstarryeyed]

I was able to get to my arcade machine again today and booted it up. Tomorrow I will go in an open the glass and check out all of the pinball scoring to make sure the 7800 is scoring things correctly. I think something may be off so I want to create a list of all of the switches and go by one by one with my finger and check each one out and how much is scores.

 

If there are any thing you all want me to check while I have the glass open let me know and I will be happy to check it out.

[PacManPlus]

Thank you - that will help.

 

Just remember, I temporarily have the bumpers at 100 points instead of 10 because of the way I did the scoring (right two digits are hard-coded as zero as I thought everything was a multiple of 100).

[Swami]

Thank you - that will help.

 

Just remember, I temporarily have the bumpers at 100 points instead of 10 because of the way I did the scoring (right two digits are hard-coded as zero as I thought everything was a multiple of 100).

 

I tried this out on my 7800 with my Concerto and it works really well. I did notice just that I did die in the tunnel with a ghost on both side and in the tunnel but neither ghost was in contact with me, although I may have touched the ghost in the blind spot and it had a delayed effect. Once, I saw the paddle overlap with the ball before the ball moved up, that was about it.

[gambler172]

Hi Bob

Hi Kurt

 

just played around with the actual version....plays well,

but really hard...without Power Pills.

 

greetings Walter

[SS]

I finally got to the second maze on the 12-17 build. Still no power pellets though. Phew, this game is hard!

[PacManPlus]

Hi guys.

 

New BIN to try. The following has been done:

- Tweaked joystick control a little bit on the maze portion. Hoping it reacts a little better, although I'm taking a shot in the dark as I can't replicate any control issues.

- Tunnel movement / collision revamped. Should be no issues now (I hope).

- Spinners working, although I may tweak them a little bit. They don't seem to move fast enough for my taste.

- Bonus baby after 3 mazes

- Pacscalator random colors

- Re-launch ball up to 3 times if no points scored

 

Things left:

- Sounds in pinball section

- Tilting

- Random few seconds at first in Classic Monster AI

BabyPac.A78

BabyPac.BIN

[Albert]

Awesome, I need to try this now that I'm beyond the crush of holiday orders! Thanks, Bob!

[imstarryeyed]

Hey gang I wanted to take the time and make some notes about scoring from hitting the actual switches in the actual machine.

 

I hope this also can be helpful to creating a manual for the game to help people understand the scoring and lighting systems.

 

I still have not gone though the 7800 version but will be doing so with Bob's latest build and report the results. Bob or anyone who may have a question about this info please let me know and I can confirm or open the glass again and get the answers.

 

I assume I will need to make changes to this but wanted to get a version out.

 

I hope this helps out

 

 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

 

Baby Pac Pinball Scoring (12-26-18)

by Marco (Imstarryeyed)

Pinball Scoring and Lights

=-=-=

Left triangle non-kicking bumper 10 (Bob knows about this already)

Left Spinner 10 pts and 100 when arrow lit

Left FRUIT Lane (Is it 500 when when flashing) 500 / 1000 when green light on

Left Inner Lane 500 / 1000 when top light lit

Left Saucer Parking Spot 500

To Light Red Spinner Arrow, at least one Power Pellet must be earned and the ball parked in either the left or right saucer.

Spelling FRUITS (lighting S) lights of green light on bottom

Inner Left Lane lights up inner lane top light

Right triangle non-kicking bumper 10 (Bob knows about this already)

Right Spinner 10 pts and 100 when arrow lit

Right TUNNEL (Is it 500 when when flashing) 500 / 1000 when green light on

Left Inner Lane 500 / 1000 when top light lit

Right Saucer Parking Spot 500

To Light Red Spinner Arrow, at least one Power Pellet must be earned and the ball parked in either the left or right saucer.

Spelling TUNNEL (lighting L) lights of green light on bottom

Inner Left Lane lights up inner lane top light

Drop Target Scoring

=-=-=-=-=-=

Yellow drop targets 500

Blue drop target 500

Flip flop ball 1000

Earning Power Pellets

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Hitting the same lane target and spelling Pac - Man will light up blue energizer light for either lane 1 through 4

Left Inner Lane Evens up Columns 1 or 2

If you light up letters in lanes 1 or 2 and hit the inside lane with the least letters lit up will light up any letters needed to "catch up"

with the other lane

Right Inner Lane Evens up Columns 3 or 4

If you light up letters in lanes 1 or 2 and hit the inside lane with the least letters lit up will light up any letters needed to "catch up"

with the other lane

Extra Ball in Pinball

=-=-=--=

Hitting Blue Target :

1st Time Blue Target for 500 Pts

2nd Time 2000 Center Arrow

3rd Time 4000 Center Arrow

4th Time 6000 Center Arrow

5th Time 8000 Center Arrow

6th Time Yellow Top Extra Arrow

Hitting the 6th time earns you a extra ball

Once the Blue Target it is hit and an arrow lights up the blue target is on a timer and must be hit within that time to light the next arrow.

If the ball does not hit the blue target in time the blue target will fall and another yellow drop down target must be hit again to

raise the blue target and continue the timer where it left off.

=-=-=-=-=-=-

Some things for me to check out

Game Notes to Check out on the 7800

Is an Play Again earned by a player being played right after the player and does not go to the next player?

Is High Score to Date Bonus Collected if player beats the current Top Score or gets 10 million points? DIP Choice of No Bonus or scores 50,000 or Lights Play Again

If the ball is parked on one of the left or right saucers and you lose a pac man on the video mode, the next time you play pinball

the ball will release from the saucer and NOT the bottom.

If a power pellet is earned and the last small dot is eaten in the maze the maze is considered complete and the power pellets earned carry over to the next maze. (This might be a DIP switch to turn on and off, but my recommendation is leave it on)

Edited December 27, 2018 by imstarryeyed

[imstarryeyed]

Bob I have a suggestion, since you are implementing the 3 balls no scoring until it kicks you back to maze, can you adjust the ball to hit the extreme non score able bottom corner of the left bumper instead of the middle?

 

I noticed on my arcade machine and in PinMame the ball hits the corner of the bumper and reflects back in towards the out-hole or flippers.

 

If the bottom of the bumper does not register a score the 3 ball benefit can be used as it sits right now I think people just get one ball most of the time since it always scores.

 

I would suggest either:

 

1) Make the bottom part of the left bumper non score able

2) Make the left bumper non score able until something else in the play field has scored

 

I think this will allow players a chance to recover if they miss the first ball due to it being to close to the out-hole

 

I just downloaded the latest version and it is looking great..

[Swami]

Hi guys.

 

New BIN to try. The following has been done:

- Tweaked joystick control a little bit on the maze portion. Hoping it reacts a little better, although I'm taking a shot in the dark as I can't replicate any control issues.

- Tunnel movement / collision revamped. Should be no issues now (I hope).

- Spinners working, although I may tweak them a little bit. They don't seem to move fast enough for my taste.

- Bonus baby after 3 mazes

- Pacscalator random colors

- Re-launch ball up to 3 times if no points scored

 

Things left:

- Sounds in pinball section

- Tilting

- Random few seconds at first in Classic Monster AI

 

Something new. Three times I went straight through a non-blue monster unharmed.

[Kurt_Woloch]

OK, I tried this one at well, and here's some things I noticed...

- The red monster now seems to have become faster, it catches up on you much sooner, at least with the "Classic" AI which I tried.

- At one point in the game, I earned power pellet #3 by spelling "Pac-Man", but the arrow of the right hole didn't start flashing so I couldn't enter the maze part to use the pellet. I was under the impression that the arrow should start flashing in this case, but maybe I'm wrong.

- Where are the "random colors" of the Pacscalator? As far as I can see, it still has got only one color... or did you mean it's always got only one color (or two) and not sort-of "rainbow colors" like the one in the arcade has?

[PacManPlus]

Hi guys:

 

@imstarryeyed:

- I like the idea about making the left bumper not count as points when re-launching the ball... I will implement that

- You reminded me, I need to implement the scoring for the middle arrows as well.

- I'm pretty sure I got everything else regarding scoring, but I'll confirm.

 

@Swami:

- Ok, back to 'bounding-box' checking it is. I changed the collision checking to use the 'tile' way (i.e. if a monster and a player occupy the same tile), but it seems the 'move through' is happening too much.

 

@Kurt:

- Yes, the red monster is faster. I think I need to change that back though. I checked against the MAME version and it looks like the red monster closed in faster than this one, but what I just realized is that the 7800 moves 2 pixels at a time, not just one. So I need to 'catch up' half as fast. I will put it back.

- Yes, the blue arrow is supposed to light up. I will check on that.

- I meant that it randomly picks a color to fill the 'ground' with, like the arcade:

 

Thanks guys!

Bob

 

[PacManPlus]

Ok - fixed all issues noted above.

 

...and I'm double checking all the points 'imstarryeyed' made (THANK YOU!)

 

 

Pinball Scoring and Lights

=-=-=

Left triangle non-kicking bumper 10 (Bob knows about this already) - Yep (and please don't be mad, it may stay this way at 100 points - not sure yet)

Left Spinner 10 pts and 100 when arrow lit - 100 points only now for the same reason as the bumper

Left FRUIT Lane (Is it 500 when when flashing) 500 / 1000 when green light on - I think this one is 500 points, only.

Left Inner Lane 500 / 1000 when top light lit - Check

Left Saucer Parking Spot 500 - Check

From what I've seen, the green light is there to tell the player that the next 'fruits' or 'tunnel' trigger will spot the center arrow.

To Light Red Spinner Arrow, at least one Power Pellet must be earned and the ball parked in either the left or right saucer. - Check

Spelling FRUITS (lighting S) lights of green light on bottom - Check

Inner Left Lane lights up inner lane top light - From the videos I've watched, it's the parking of the ball and energizer earned on the corresponding side that lights both the red spinner arrow *and* the yellow light above the inner lane. Are you sure about this?

Right triangle non-kicking bumper 10 (Bob knows about this already) - Yep (and please don't be mad, it may stay this way at 100 points - not sure yet)

Right Spinner 10 pts and 100 when arrow lit - 100 points only now for the same reason as the bumper

Right TUNNEL (Is it 500 when when flashing) 500 / 1000 when green light on - I think this one is 500 points, only.

Left Inner Lane 500 / 1000 when top light lit - Check

Right Saucer Parking Spot 500 - Check

From what I've seen, the green light is there to tell the player that the next 'fruits' or 'tunnel' trigger will spot the center arrow.

To Light Red Spinner Arrow, at least one Power Pellet must be earned and the ball parked in either the left or right saucer. - Check

Spelling TUNNEL (lighting L) lights of green light on bottom - Check

Inner Left Lane lights up inner lane top light - From the videos I've watched, it's the parking of the ball and energizer earned on the corresponding side that lights both the red spinner arrow *and* the yellow light above the inner lane. Are you sure about this?

Drop Target Scoring

=-=-=-=-=-=

Yellow drop targets 500 - Check

Blue drop target 500 - Check

Flip flop ball 1000 - Check

Earning Power Pellets

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Hitting the same lane target and spelling Pac - Man will light up blue energizer light for either lane 1 through 4 - Check

Left Inner Lane Evens up Columns 1 or 2

If you light up letters in lanes 1 or 2 and hit the inside lane with the least letters lit up will light up any letters needed to "catch up"

with the other lane - ..or if they are even already, adds one to both - Check

Right Inner Lane Evens up Columns 3 or 4

If you light up letters in lanes 1 or 2 and hit the inside lane with the least letters lit up will light up any letters needed to "catch up"

with the other lane - ..or if they are even already, adds one to both - Check

Extra Ball in Pinball

=-=-=--=

Hitting Blue Target :

1st Time Blue Target for 500 Pts - Completed.

2nd Time 2000 Center Arrow - Completed.

3rd Time 4000 Center Arrow - Completed.

4th Time 6000 Center Arrow - Completed.

5th Time 8000 Center Arrow - Completed.

6th Time Yellow Top Extra Arrow - +10,000 points - Completed.

Hitting the 6th time earns you a extra ball - Check, although I believe it's an extra baby, not an extra ball (again, from the videos I've watched)

Once the Blue Target it is hit and an arrow lights up the blue target is on a timer and must be hit within that time to light the next arrow. - Check

If the ball does not hit the blue target in time the blue target will fall and another yellow drop down target must be hit again to

raise the blue target and continue the timer where it left off. - Check, or if the top ball changes sides.

=-=-=-=-=-=-

Some things for me to check out

Game Notes to Check out on the 7800

Is an Play Again earned by a player being played right after the player and does not go to the next player? - need to check this.

Is High Score to Date Bonus Collected if player beats the current Top Score or gets 10 million points? DIP Choice of No Bonus or scores 50,000 or Lights Play Again - No, I can make it award a bonus baby, as that is one of the settings. A 'free game' setting is moot here. I don't see the point of only giving 50,000 points when you already have 10,000,000

If the ball is parked on one of the left or right saucers and you lose a pac man on the video mode, the next time you play pinball

the ball will release from the saucer and NOT the bottom. - Check

If a power pellet is earned and the last small dot is eaten in the maze the maze is considered complete and the power pellets earned carry over to the next maze. (This might be a DIP switch to turn on and off, but my recommendation is leave it on) - Check

 

I will post another binary with the above mentioned fixes soon.

Bob

Edited December 28, 2018 by PacManPlus

[PacManPlus]

Tilting implemented.

 

As it stands, if you bump the table 16 times within a short period of time, you will tilt the game. Every 128 frames the count gets reduced by 1.

Edited December 28, 2018 by PacManPlus

[Trebor]

...Tweaked joystick control a little bit on the maze portion. Hoping it reacts a little better, although I'm taking a shot in the dark as I can't replicate any control issues...

 

This is the first version where now I am experiencing movement not registering occasionally.

Happened a few non-consecutive times trying to go right and also a few times when attempting to go up, it did not register throughout the course of several (Vid Only) games. Never had a problem before.

Maybe just a coincidence (?)

[Atari PAC-MAN Fan]

I just tried out the new rom. It's looking good! Can't wait until the "pascalator" intermissions are implemented!

[Swami]

Made it to third maze with help of three ball flips.

[imstarryeyed]

@Bob

 

Bob I will go and recheck out the questions you had, I did all of this in one swoop in a somewhat dark room so there is room for error there, but no problem I will pull the glass tomorrow and get those ironed out. No problem!

 

The extra baby thing has got me puzzled, I will open the back tomorrow and check my DIP switches as mine is not awarding another baby or even ball but I think that is an option, I will figure that out tomorrow as well.

 

Were you going to implement the ambient sounds of the pinball? I recorded the sound the playfield makes in the background which seems to add a nice dimension that the 7800 might benefit from.

 

Are there any sounds you would like to me record for you for that matter?

Edited December 28, 2018 by imstarryeyed

[Kurt_Woloch]

Some comments of mine:

- Extra Ball or Extra Baby? I think it's an extra baby which means that the usual cycle takes place once more... starting in the maze, then (if you don't lose your baby before that) going down to the pinball maze and on losing the ball there another trip to the maze, supplemented by additional trips back and forth if you earn power pellets and hit the hole or complete mazes. How would an extra "ball" only work in this game anyway?

What I'm questioning myself is what happens if you earned an extra baby and then manage to earn another before you lose the current baby. In this case the "extra baby" light in the pinball mode would still be lit so I suppose you don't earn another extra, or do you? However, in the maze part the extra baby is visible on the bottom as part of the extra babies as if it would have always been there. But you can't earn an extra baby in the maze part, except by clearing the 3rd maze, and in that case I suppose it doesn't depend if you're currently having an "extra" in storage on the pinball part or not... or does it?

 

When testing the last binary, I also ran through a non-blue ghost once or twice. But I think this is also able to happen on the original Pac-Man machines... don't know if it's possible on Baby Pac-Man though.