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Secretum Labyrinth Dark Castles Work in progress 05/11/2018


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#26 ProWizard OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 15, 2018 1:54 PM

Aren't we getting a little carried away with the nitpicking. Posting on here, it is not unexpected. Posting Work-in-Progress videos gives me some feedback and see what can be done about what is being observed.

 

I am trying some changes when the music at different points within the room draw routine, so the noise plays slightly longer. However since the length of time it can take to draw the next room is variable, along with the instant one leaves the room, it will only have a minor effect. The music totally stops if a new song file needs to be decompressed into RAM during a world/under world transition.  This is minor and the game continues to play normal after

 

Nitpicking? You post a work in progress video for what reason then? I guess you want to show what you are working on, and that you want to get some good meant feedback, which I gave you. I guess your goal is to create a fabulous game.

The 'minor' effect you are talking about, would I consider as a 'major' effect. It is pretty subjective. I'm not bashing your game, I'm trying to show you something that might be important. You wrote you even didn't hear the issue, so that is why I thought you'd better ask somebody else, who is able to hear it.



#27 peteym5 OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 16, 2018 5:28 AM

I delayed when the RMT Silent routine is called further down to after a few processes happen going between each room. If a silent gap is happening, it may be slightly shorter. I am going to leave it as is for now as I have a priority on finishing up the whole game. Everyone will just have to wait until I make the next work-in-progress video. This is not causing the program to crash or making the game unplayable, which then would be a serious issue. The music gap is a dead issue, end of discussion.


Edited by peteym5, Wed May 16, 2018 5:58 AM.


#28 ProWizard OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 16, 2018 6:34 AM

 which then would be a serious issue. The music gap is a dead issue, end of discussion.

 

1) How can you be so sure? Remember the fact that your Venture game also crashed because of an issue with something related to the music or the player. It could be a sign of a serious flaw somewhere else in your code. I'm not in the position to tell whether that is the case here or not, but somehow you do not give me the idea that you take this very serious. 

 

2) 'End of discussion' .... I understand that you want to exercise influence on my reply button, but I have to disappoint you here; the only one that is about my reply button is me. It's pretty incredible that every (seriously and honestly well meant) reply from my side, is turned into some unkind and crusty conversation by your response. How come you do not take constructive feedback as a challenge or at least a good advice? 

 

Anyway, good luck with the game!



#29 peteym5 OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 16, 2018 9:25 AM

"Secretum Labyrinth Kings Gold" has been available for years,  you can download and test it at any time. "Secretrum Labyrinth The Legend" is still available on cartridge for $39.95. No one has reported a crash or problems with the music until now.  "Secretrum Labyrinth Dark Castles" will also be a cartridge game and will be on sale for cartridge only. It will not go to the beta testers until it is ready as they are busy testing 5200 games right now.


Edited by peteym5, Wed May 16, 2018 9:27 AM.


#30 ProWizard OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 16, 2018 9:42 AM

"Secretum Labyrinth Kings Gold" has been available for years,  you can download and test it at any time. "Secretrum Labyrinth The Legend" is still available on cartridge for $39.95. No one has reported a crash or problems with the music until now.  "Secretrum Labyrinth Dark Castles" will also be a cartridge game and will be on sale for cartridge only. It will not go to the beta testers until it is ready as they are busy testing 5200 games right now.

 

The only thing I am referring to, is to the movie you posted in your opening post. There is a problem with the music, everyone with enabled ears can hear it. The only reason I mentioned it, was to notify you about a possible issue, which might have been missed otherwise. That is all. Do with it whatever you want. Perhaps in the other versions the issue does not occur, which makes it even more important for you to fix it, before you release this newer game on cart and people start complaining afterwards. 



#31 ProWizard OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 16, 2018 9:47 AM

Oh and one thing, just for the record. I watched this:

 

But you are right, in that movie there is also an issue with the music in the transition from one room to another, but for some reason it is less disturbing (although still noticeable).



#32 ProWizard OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 16, 2018 9:51 AM

There is a musical reason why it is more noticeable in the newer movie!

 

There is more musical movement in the newer version (accompaniment in 'eights' all the time). So when there is a slight pause, you hear that at once. In the older music, there is from itself already more pause in melody and accompaniment, so that is why it is less disturbing in the older version. 



#33 CharlieChaplin OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 16, 2018 12:25 PM

My suggestion: a) Music only in the titlescreen, no music during the game (only sfx in the game, e.g. when you are shooting monsters or when monsters attack you). Or b) do it like in A.R. and several other games (e.g. Draconus) where music plays in the titlescreen and only plays during gameplay if something special is happening (or you found some special item)...


Edited by CharlieChaplin, Wed May 16, 2018 12:26 PM.


#34 ProWizard OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 16, 2018 3:47 PM

My suggestion: a) Music only in the titlescreen, no music during the game (only sfx in the game, e.g. when you are shooting monsters or when monsters attack you). Or b) do it like in A.R. and several other games (e.g. Draconus) where music plays in the titlescreen and only plays during gameplay if something special is happening (or you found some special item)...

 

There are games though, where the ingame music really adds something; like in Flowers Mania, Mental Age, Johny's Trouble, Space Harrier, Atari Blast .... and many more. Without these tunes, I really miss something in the overal experience. 



#35 Stephen OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 16, 2018 4:30 PM

I prefer an option to turn the music on/off in any game.  I can only hear a tune repeat so many times before it gets irritating.



#36 peteym5 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 17, 2018 9:26 AM

The option of turning the music off will remain with Secretum Labyrinth Dark Castles and any future game I release with this engine. 

 

None of the prior Secretum Labyrinth games crashed due to a problem with the music. It is set up differently than Venture was set up. At the time KJMANN wrote the RMT music files for Venture, he wanted some songs to play than stop. At the time I was not sure how RMT functions, so after a period of time, KJMANN had me set it to a memory address that was not part of the song. That caused issues with it running on different operating systems and emulators. It takes several minutes of playing abnormal by standing still in the map room for the sound to happen. Most of the time, people just get into the smaller rooms to get the treasure within a few seconds. Also at the time KJMANN was confusing me, going months without hearing back from him, and wanted to be the sole beta tester. Enough said about Venture. I corrected the music problem after I learned more about RMT during when I was doing the music for this game series.

 

The RMT_Player is called only inside the Game VBI, and is disabled when screen and VBI are disabled when a new screen is being drawn. So during room transition, there are no RMT calls and will not cause a problem. 

 

I am busy working on this game, so I may not be able to reply immediately to each post on here. 


Edited by peteym5, Thu May 17, 2018 9:31 AM.


#37 solo/ng OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 17, 2018 9:48 AM

it looks pretty decent.

 

maybe just keep (if possible) VBI on and all will be good; no1 will notice difference in room drawing.

if not easy possible (for example ram under rom vs OS vbi) then skip it and never look back;)



#38 FifthPlayer OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 17, 2018 10:20 AM

The RMT_Player is called only inside the Game VBI, and is disabled when screen and VBI are disabled when a new screen is being drawn. So during room transition, there are no RMT calls and will not cause a problem. 

 

Would it be feasible to leave VBI enabled all the time.  Then at start of transition between screens, set a flag which disables all VBI code except RMT Player.  Finally, clear the flag when screen transition is complete.


Edited by FifthPlayer, Thu May 17, 2018 10:21 AM.


#39 peteym5 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 17, 2018 9:46 PM

The RMT_Play call is one of the last processes in the VBI routine. I could set the VBI vector to jump there direct. But I am going to try the delayed RMT silence which will silence the sound somewhere in the middle of new room draw to see how many people still complain about it. I believe some people are playing back the videos at 1/4 speed to find something and claim it has a glitch. 


Edited by peteym5, Thu May 17, 2018 9:48 PM.


#40 flashjazzcat OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri May 18, 2018 1:32 AM

I believe some people are playing back the videos at 1/4 speed to find something and claim it has a glitch.


What is wrong with you?

#41 ProWizard OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri May 18, 2018 2:11 AM

I prefer an option to turn the music on/off in any game.  I can only hear a tune repeat so many times before it gets irritating.

 

There are almost no games where I have this. But that is probably because I'm seriously addicted to chiptunes and especially (good) pokey sounds. The ingame music is most of the times very important to me. These tunes keep cycling in my head. Some sega 'evergreens' like Outrun, Super Hang On and Space Harrier... I love them, but the ingame music has a very important role here (for me). 

 

I think Who Dares Wins II is not very playable on Atari 8bit (although I had lots of fun with it), but that song... Oh I L O V E IT.

 

I must admit though, that I'm pretty weird. I sing with the songs sometimes, and then I improvise a 2nd voice on it. (Yes I know, geek alert haha).

 

I remember that I was complaining about the not-so-interesting music in the game ECKN+ ... I asked him to find a composer (like miker) to write better music for the game (since the game itself is brilliant!) ... but IIRC he answered something like you wrote Stephen, that every tune is getting to be annoying at some point (I disagree about this, but hey, that is a matter of taste haha). Anyway, it turned out that after playing ECKN+ a zillion time, that his tune is one of the BEST tunes to improvise on. It is really awesome. You should try that too (I believe you are into music, aren't you)?



#42 ProWizard OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri May 18, 2018 2:24 AM

I believe some people are playing back the videos at 1/4 speed to find something and claim it has a glitch. 

 

This line illustrates why you and I are probably never will get along well in the end. You seem to find it hard to trust people, and you seem to have difficulties in believing that people simply have other ideas about quality. No problems with that btw, everybody has his own characteristics. (I'm not the easiest person in the world too, I admit this immediately).... but I would love it, when you try to believe me. Please take my word, that not all people are bad people. 

 

Yes I might be a little obsessed with quality, but that is what I appreciate so much in games and demos and tools from other sources. That is my fun. I want software to be really smooth and good and bugfree. I really can enjoy it when mr fish improves the graphics quality from games that are around for decades. I really appreciate the very nice aesthetics from menu structures in tools. Is that wrong? I guess that is the difference in people. Some people do not care whether a musical instrument is (slightly) out of tune, well I care. I seriously do. Is that wrong? Am I rude when I dislike a performance in the Eurovisian Songcontest where the artist sings out of key. It's a matter of taste.

 

Every request I did in the past and in the present, every thing I mentioned about quality, about the 'downloads', about found bugs, about concerns I had from what I saw (and heard) ... they were sincerely meant. Please try to see things from another persons perspective. 

 

When I try to watch what happens here in this topic, from your perspective, I think I understand what is going on. And when I was in your position, and would see things from a 'black point of view' about humanity like you seem to do, I probably would act the same. 

 

I can only speak for myself, but I am pretty sure most people feel the same way, people here try to encourage you to improve your games. People are happy when new titles are released for their a8. People here want to be involved (I guess btw. that that is what a forum is all about, participate, discuss, being involved). 

 

So please, try to see that. It's your game, your business, you decide. If you really that sensitive to criticism perhaps it is better not sharing anything here anymore.


Edited by ProWizard, Fri May 18, 2018 2:30 AM.


#43 solo/ng OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri May 18, 2018 2:48 AM

(...) I could set the VBI vector to jump there direct. (...)

 

If its possible - please do it. It will be elegant way to handle this small issue. Its not like people are nitpicking or something - the pause is noticeable:)

And with this small change in the code it will vanish. Its even easier than delays you want to make, isnt it?

 

great work so far btw



#44 www.atarimania.com OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri May 18, 2018 5:41 AM

ProWizard, I have to say I really admire your calm and patience. Mr. "Please Give Me Feedback but Don't Give Me Feedback" is quite lucky to be part of the Atari community, he would've been kicked out of the scene a long time ago in the Commodore 64 or Spectrum sphere with that kind of attitude...

 

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#45 peteym5 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri May 18, 2018 8:31 AM

I do appreciate the feedback, and I did state I am doing something about it. Many programs disable the VBI and NMIs so the CPU can focus on the task of drawing or copying a new screen. I will focus on finishing this game. 



#46 Gunstar ONLINE  

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Posted Fri May 18, 2018 10:34 AM

What is wrong with you?

LOL! I've probably  watched about a hundred thousand videos on the Internet over the years, and never once has it ever even occurred to me to adjust the speed of a video I'm watching. Play, Pause...the only controls I ever use. :dunce:


Edited by Gunstar, Fri May 18, 2018 10:46 AM.


#47 peteym5 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri May 18, 2018 11:46 AM

There are services and software out there where someone can rip incoming audio/video from any online streaming services. Once they have the AVI/MP4 file they can play it back on a player on their machine. I am not saying that is what someone did, but to see or hear some of these reported problems is to slow down or freeze the video. 

 

https://www.onlinevi...video-converter


Edited by peteym5, Fri May 18, 2018 11:48 AM.


#48 Gunstar ONLINE  

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Posted Fri May 18, 2018 11:56 AM

There are services and software out there where someone can rip incoming audio/video from any online streaming services. Once they have the AVI/MP4 file they can play it back on a player on their machine. I am not saying that is what someone did, but to see or hear some of these reported problems is to slow down or freeze the video. 

 

https://www.onlinevi...video-converter

Now that I've actually looked, you don't have to do any of that at all, you can select the speed right in the Youtube settings. I also doubt very highly that anyone cares enough about your WIP video to go through all that trouble, even to download it instead of just viewing it above or direct on youtube.


Edited by Gunstar, Fri May 18, 2018 11:57 AM.


#49 Stephen OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri May 18, 2018 12:00 PM

What a ridiculous accusation.  It's always an accusation with you.  You really think that it takes 25% playback speed to hear a skip in music for some of us?  Every time I think you are coming around, I read a post like this and just think why bother.



#50 flashjazzcat OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri May 18, 2018 12:04 PM

One would have to spend four times as long watching the video in order to view it at a quarter of the normal speed, which is something no-one has the time or inclination to do, believe me.




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