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2 button joystick ?


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#26 R0ger ONLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 6, 2018 1:55 PM

Some joysticks also use remapping the second button to up. It's useful for platform games where up is used for jumping. And it might be also used for example in tetris, which does not use up for anything.



#27 Donlupi OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 6, 2018 6:36 PM

I thought too a wireless button, but not all games uses the space key as secondary function in the games.

or am I wrong?



#28 Zonie OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 6, 2018 7:42 PM

7800 joystick uses the Pot line and resistors to do just this. I'd be cool if home brewers used this feature on 2600 games.
I added a second button to my favorite CX40 and wired it like a proline.



#29 ascrnet OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:24 AM

Hi all,

Here I present my version 1.1 of joystick for 3 buttons easy to make for XL-XE and compatible with 2600.

joy2bplus.png

the scheme is very simple

joy2b.png

 

It is also compatible with the games mentioned above, I also did a test and modified 4 more games:

  • Green Beret (2 buttons)
  • Screaming Wings (3 buttons)
  • Shamus Case II (2 buttons)
  • Twilight World (2 buttons)

Everything is available on github

regards

 



#30 R0ger ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:51 AM

Why the resistors ? And what values can you expect on the paddles ?



#31 ascrnet OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:12 PM

 

Why the resistors ? And what values can you expect on the paddles ?

 
It is to invert the values by pressing the buttons and make it compatible with the atari 2600 mod. Then 1 is not pressed and 228 is pressed.
regards

#32 Bunsen OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:45 PM

I remember someone patching Dropzone so you can play it with the two buttons on the Atari 7800 joystick.

Regular control using space bar for smart bombs is odd.



#33 R0ger ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:51 PM

   
It is to invert the values by pressing the buttons and make it compatible with the atari 2600 mod. Then 1 is not pressed and 228 is pressed.
regards

 

I see. Good job !



#34 ascrnet OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:19 PM

I remember someone patching Dropzone so you can play it with the two buttons on the Atari 7800 joystick.

Regular control using space bar for smart bombs is odd.

Thanks for the information, I'll find it. I tried to make the modification but it did not work out as expected. This game has 2 functions one for the pumps and another for the protective layer.
regards

 

 

I see. Good job !

thanks, soon more modified games.
regards



#35 R0ger ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:46 PM

Btw. I have found during my test with SEGA controllers, that there is typically transitional value in between 'off' and 'on' state. It's logical, the paddle sums the value over the whole frame, so if you press the button just before the paddle reset, you wont get 1. You get that next frame. So in my tests I treated any value different from the base value as 'pressed'. Have you encountered something like this ?


Edited by R0ger, Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:46 PM.


#36 Mathy OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:37 PM

Hello Gunnar

 

I remember someone patching Dropzone so you can play it with the two buttons on the Atari 7800 joystick.

Regular control using space bar for smart bombs is odd.

 

Are you sure?  IIRC, Sleepy and I once tried a 7800 joystick on either an XL or an XE (maybe on both) and we even opened one up.  Pressing the two button was only detected on the trigger pin, not the potentiometer pins.  We both came to the conclusion that the resistors inside the 7800 joysticks have the wrong value for the XL/XE to register if the buttons are pushed via the analog ports.  Making it impossible to distinguish between the two buttons.

 

Sincerely

 

Mathy

 

 



#37 ascrnet OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:06 PM

Btw. I have found during my test with SEGA controllers, that there is typically transitional value in between 'off' and 'on' state. It's logical, the paddle sums the value over the whole frame, so if you press the button just before the paddle reset, you wont get 1. You get that next frame. So in my tests I treated any value different from the base value as 'pressed'. Have you encountered something like this ?

No, but which of all the new controls are you reviewing? I once tried the sega pad ascii with the Gem Drop game and gave the second button the value of 228 when pressed and 1 when not pressing it. but the scheme that I present is compatible with the Gem Drop game since it uses the same values.

regards



#38 Zonie OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:11 PM

Multiple buttons could also be mapped using a matrix like on the keyboard controllers. I tried in the past to get a discussion going in a "standard" multi button joystick using mapping similar to the keyboards but no dice. If we could come up with a simple concept, easy to make with published schematics and also have someone make them (edladdin or somoeone) for those who prefer to buy something, then have the homebrewers utilize the new standard, we'd advance the state of the 2600 art.

 

There are enough lines for a couple or three buttons, and a pot for throttle, for example.

 

4 joystick lines and the button can give a 3x2 matrix:

 

  1  2  3

A

B

 

This would give 4 directions and two buttons. 

Add in the ground, and a 3x3 matrix would add three more buttons if desired (2-3 are enough, though)

 

 1 2 3

A

B

G

 

You still have the Pot lines for more features.

 

I think a 2 button in a CX40 format would be enough for most games, with three buttons and a pot for an expanded arcade console controller would be great for more in game control. Think of the permutations.


Edited by Zonie, Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:15 PM.


#39 R0ger ONLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:44 AM

No, but which of all the new controls are you reviewing? I once tried the sega pad ascii with the Gem Drop game and gave the second button the value of 228 when pressed and 1 when not pressing it. but the scheme that I present is compatible with the Gem Drop game since it uses the same values.

regards

 

It was some cheap Chinese stuff. 3 buttons only. Don't remember the numbers. My code took the starting value as not pressed, and any change as pressed. I wanted to support both types of logic. High value for pressed and low value for pressed.

But if it behaved same as you setup, it would be great, the logic would be simpler.


Edited by R0ger, Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:45 AM.


#40 Mr Robot OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:35 AM

I like the 3 button joystick using the pot lines with resistors.

 

It's well known, simple to implement in hardware and patches for a couple of games already exist. I've seen Bill Lange noodling around with the idea on twitter recently, and it seems simple to implement in software as well. Three buttons is more than enough for almost all games. Maybe this is one instance where the simplest idea is the best one? 

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • BillLange1968_2018-Oct-25.jpg


#41 Zonie OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:50 PM

I like the pot line method too, easiest to implement for a DIY due to the least amount of wiring changes, but R0ger's post caused me some concern that may need some testing.

I offered the matrix as the Keyboard, VTP, and Kids Controller all use it, (they are all the same internally) and If I recall, the Kids games use it for direction control on some games?

Good dialogue. Let's try to get a standard agreed upon that also works with a 7800. Attached are some renderings i I did a couple of years ago. I'm partial to C because it gives several additional options, but could be used in a Multi button CX40 or expanded with more features in an arcade console controller using the same wiring.
med_gallery_3653_1328_153331.jpg

http://atariage.com/...-stick-options/


Edited by Zonie, Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:10 PM.


#42 Bill Lange OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:30 PM

I've seen Bill Lange noodling around with the idea on twitter recently

 

 

I saw that picture, and I thought to myself, I just built that same thing with the exact same components recently. Then I read the text...


Edited by Bill Lange, Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:32 PM.


#43 Mr Robot OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:08 AM

I'm partial to C because it gives several additional options, but could be used in a Multi button CX40 or expanded with more features in an arcade console controller using the same wiring.

 

 

Do you have any BASIC/ASM code that demonstrates how to read C? 

 

All of the options shown in this thread so far are nice and simple from a hardware perspective, for beginners someone could even produce a tiny pcb with the correct pins labelled so anyone could build one. 

 

If no one patches existing games/writes new games that use the extra features, the idea is dead in the water. Creating a game that supports two different types of control schemes for those with/without extended joysticks is a barrier I'd like to see as low as possible. 



#44 ascrnet OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:52 PM

 

It was some cheap Chinese stuff. 3 buttons only. Don't remember the numbers. My code took the starting value as not pressed, and any change as pressed. I wanted to support both types of logic. High value for pressed and low value for pressed.

But if it behaved same as you setup, it would be great, the logic would be simpler.

ok, I still buy clones of the cheapest but I did not have the problem you say. here a picture of mine

foto07.png

cherries yours came out with failure. at the end use only the cable and build a better joystick.

 

I personally believe that with 3 buttons this is fine and that it is simple to do for anyone who is not an expert in electronics. good I keep modifying games to use it with my joystick

  • Airstrike II (2 buttons)
  • Roxblox (2 buttons)
  • Culmins (2 buttons)
regards


#45 Zonie OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:47 PM

 

Do you have any BASIC/ASM code that demonstrates how to read C? 

 

All of the options shown in this thread so far are nice and simple from a hardware perspective, for beginners someone could even produce a tiny pcb with the correct pins labelled so anyone could build one. 

 

If no one patches existing games/writes new games that use the extra features, the idea is dead in the water. Creating a game that supports two different types of control schemes for those with/without extended joysticks is a barrier I'd like to see as low as possible. 

"C" as in option C on my schematic. Not the programming language.



#46 R0ger ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:09 PM

 

ok, I still buy clones of the cheapest but I did not have the problem you say. here a picture of mine


cherries yours came out with failure. at the end use only the cable and build a better joystick.

 

I personally believe that with 3 buttons this is fine and that it is simple to do for anyone who is not an expert in electronics. good I keep modifying games to use it with my joystick

  • Airstrike II (2 buttons)
  • Roxblox (2 buttons)
  • Culmins (2 buttons)
regards

 

 

I had this one too. And it's certainly weird you don't have that issue. I won't be able to test it anytime soon, will report when it happens.



#47 Mr Robot OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:23 PM

"C" as in option C on my schematic. Not the programming language.

 

Yes, I understood that.

 

Do you have any BASIC/ASM code that demonstrates how to read the inputs of option C



#48 Zonie OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:58 PM

 

Yes, I understood that.

 

Do you have any BASIC/ASM code that demonstrates how to read the inputs of option C

No. I'm a hardware guy. 

If we had someone here who is interested in testing the inputs, I think this is a worthwhile exercise.



#49 _The Doctor__ ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:06 PM

3 button joystick for the win



#50 griff3125 OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:04 AM

This may be way off but has anybody had a look at the 2600 Star Raiders controller?

Does that work in any way at all with the computers? Anybody ever tried it with Star Raiders?

Technically that's a 12 button device being polled through the joystick port.

I know nothing about the inner workings but I'm very curious if this has ever been addressed.






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