Zonie Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 (edited) I think we shoud go with how acrnet has his wired. There are already patched games working with that. That looks like your diagram, but not the list in the previous post. Also a switch on fire 3 for up/fire, making that switch 3 way. I goofed the previous post, and noticed too late to edit it. Yes, this is the same as Ascrnet but with the pot select and paddle added. I Saw that up/fire select. what is the reason for that? It would be easy to add to this. Just another switch. I also show one button on each side. These could be A and B or Left and Right for pinball games. Optional to wire in, of course. Even both with a select switch if desired for A&B or L&R Adding in a second cord for the other port we can ad tons more shit. Edited February 7, 2019 by Zonie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 The reason for the up/fire3 switch is that a lot of platformers use up to jump but in the arcades/all consoles its a button to jump, for those games fire3 becomes jump. Existing pinball games already support the triggers on the paddle controllers as flipper buttons, thats pins 3&4 so those would be the flippers on your joystick I guess. I'm not sure we need tonnes more shit tbh, I think the pot is already too much, as are the flipper buttons, but it's not my design and nobody has to implement everything. I'm interested to hear what everyone else thinks of the proposed standard. I like the idea of a linear pot for breakout/arkanoid style games but I'd make a dedicated controller for that, at least if we have a standard for how to add it, any custom controller should just work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 (edited) Non techy question, would any of these mods have any effect on the latency of the present single button? I only ask as we already have the CRT / Non CRT loss so anything else affecting the 'game experience' could be an issue of small size.. Edited February 7, 2019 by Mclaneinc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Nope, UDLRF are all still the same, there's nothing there to slow them down. All that's happening here is making the potX and potY pins buttons as well, there may be some lag on those buttons, I think I read that the pots need 1 frame to read so there could be up to 1/50 of a sec lag on those buttons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Great, thank you for the reply Mr Robot... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 From a "I'm having a go at making my first joystick" perspective, which is easier to wrap your head around? A. Two wires for every switchB. Join all the grounds together, one wire for every switch Option B would make the board much smaller, and therefore cheaper, but seems to me to be more complicated for a beginner so I'm leaning toward 2 wires for every switch. Sanwa (and the cheap knockoffs) have a PCB with the switches mounted to it and a single 5 pin header on it, would we want that as well or separate UDLR with 4 grounds too? Not everyone will want to use arcade parts. This design would have 3 switches on it, 1x SPDT, 2x DPDT One switch DPDT to switch between Driving controller or JoystickOne switch SPDT to switch between Fire2 and Right PaddleOne switch DPDT to switch Fire3 and Left Paddle (if Left Paddle is selected, Fire3 becomes UP) I'd imagine the first two switches would mostly be implemented as jumper links to avoid cluttering up the outside of the controller, but they could be switches if desired. Switch three would function as a Fire/Up switch and a button/paddle switch if someone wanted to implement that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zonie Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 (edited) I'll add the UP select to the schematic. I don't play fight games, but it is a popular genre so it makes perfect sense. My "options" are just that. One only needs to install whatever they want in their controller, but I like an expanded capability in the event a homebrew game inventor wants to have more options. I offered the pinball buttons as an option as it is easy to wire them in. The Pot buttons are the same as right and left on the joystick, so they can easily be added to a homebrew controller if one wants to. I certainly will. Video Pinball uses right and left but also up for both and the joystick to Nudge (when the button is pressed). Midnight magic uses down for the same thing. Both use down to pull the plunger if I recall. I offered the idea of the paddle so if someone wants to write a game that can use the pot for a throttle or maybe a hack of Raiders of the Lost Ark that uses the pot instead of the second joystick to scroll through the inventory which is a huge pain in the ass. For Raiders, This, of course, would require: Plugging the controller into the right jack instead of the left as the right controller is used for movement and firing. Reprogramming the game to use the appropriate pot line on the right controller to cycle the inventory. Reprogramming button 2 for the drop button The "tons more shit" is just a joke really, but there is that opportunity to add more stuff. I did design one that uses both cords in the past that would allow an ideal Stargate Controller, for example. This single line controller would allow for at least Fire, Smart Bomb, and Hyperspace or (Inviso) if the thrust left/thrust right and up/down are kept on the joystick, but Defender and Stargate deserve their own proper controller but that is a whole other topic. Edited February 8, 2019 by Zonie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 First hit at a layout, it's about 2" square, I can make it smaller (a bit) but it'll lose clarity for wiring. Thos JST-XH connectors take up a bit more room than a pin header but most of the arcade joystick kits you can get from ebay come with all the wiring and use those connectors. Opinions please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zonie Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 (edited) Nice. Is the driving controller wired to the usual (UP/DN) pins or through the stick/driving switch? I see you added options for both paddles. I'm partial to pin headers as I don't use the connectors, but I can solder to the plated holes just as easily. What is the Sanwa Port? I think we're there... Edited February 8, 2019 by Zonie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic Knight Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Sanwa port for Sanwa type joystick input? (Used for mame, mamma and any arcade type joystick) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Nice. Is the driving controller wired to the usual (UP/DN) pins or through the stick/driving switch? I see you added options for both paddles. I'm partial to pin headers as I don't use the connectors, but I can solder to the plated holes just as easily. What is the Sanwa Port? I think we're there... The driving controller is wired to the UP/DN pins through the stick/driving switch; one way UDLR, the other LF flipper buttons and a driving controller. I found a reasonably priced 16-pos rotary controller on digi-key I thought I'd have a go at. The controller had detents but I actually quite like the feel of it. Shame there is only one game that supports the driving controller and I don't have it LOL. Yep I added in the other paddle, seemed silly not to. If you don't want it, it's one jumper link to disable. The left paddle is slightly different to your schematic. I used a DPDT switch so that if you enable the paddle, instead of having a non-functional fire3, it becomes the UP button. That means I didn't need an extra switch for up/fire3 The Sanwa port is the 5 pin port on the side of Sanwa arcade joysticks. The kits you get on ebay come with a 5-pin ribbon cable for it so it seemed a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 If only there was a way to get Atari joystick cables with a connector of some sort on the other end... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manterola Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 (edited) If only there was a way to get Atari joystick cables with a connector of some sort on the other end... There are: those joystick extenders can be used. Most of them have all the pines connected, so you might need to add a female db9 to youir design... I guess you already did it. And there are pretty cheap if you cultivate the skill of... patience... (they come from China) Edited February 8, 2019 by manterola 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 That's not a bad idea! The connector is pretty bulky though. If you're making an arcade controller I don't suppose that would matter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zonie Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 (edited) The driving controller is wired to the UP/DN pins through the stick/driving switch; one way UDLR, the other LF flipper buttons and a driving controller. I found a reasonably priced 16-pos rotary controller on digi-key I thought I'd have a go at. The controller had detents but I actually quite like the feel of it. Shame there is only one game that supports the driving controller and I don't have it LOL. Yep I added in the other paddle, seemed silly not to. If you don't want it, it's one jumper link to disable. The left paddle is slightly different to your schematic. I used a DPDT switch so that if you enable the paddle, instead of having a non-functional fire3, it becomes the UP button. That means I didn't need an extra switch for up/fire3 The Sanwa port is the 5 pin port on the side of Sanwa arcade joysticks. The kits you get on ebay come with a 5-pin ribbon cable for it so it seemed a good idea. All good things. Good idea on the Paddle/Up select. I hadn't thought of that, and didn't notice it on your schematic. So you would have two actions, up, and the paddle. Nice. For the flipper buttons, they don't need a switch. They just wire in parallel with Left and Right. This is so you can use the joystick to nudge the ball. If the joystick has a button on top, It makes it easy to push the button on top and wiggle the stick with one hand in a hurry to nudge. I was even thinking about using a couple of reed switches and a magnet on a string inside to simulate the cabinet so when you shake it, you nudge. Lots of permutations. Your switch can enable this feature. I'll had a look at the sanwa, as I had not seen that, but then I have not bought any new arcade parts in a while. I still have an old J-Pac Jamma converter I've never used. I see the connector. Good idea. easy for people to use. Can you please post a link to the encoder you got? I have Indy500. I can get one and test it. Do you have an updated schematic? Edited February 8, 2019 by Zonie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathy Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 (edited) Hello guys Just opened my joypad: Resistors on the backside are coded blue, red, brown, gold. Wire colors used: Lower PCB, wires coming from the joystick cable: White, black, brown, blue, green (left to right) Upper PCB, wires coming from the joystick cable: White, red, yellow and orange (left to right) The white wire on the upper PCB is soldered to the same point as the black wire. Guess that means both trigger buttons are connected to the joystick cable. Question now is, do we put resistors in line (external to the joypad) with or in parallel (inside the joypad) to the resistors to make the Atari see the individual trigger buttons. Sincerely Mathy PS the trace on the upper PCB just to the right of where the resistors are on the other side, are connected to absolutely nothing on the other side. Edited February 9, 2019 by Mathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 The encoder I got but haven't tried yet is this one. https://www.digikey.com/short/p3p5nf Yes the flippers are just wired straight to L/R (Oddly Flipper R is wired to L and Flipper L is wired to R, that's correct for Davids Midnight Magic, but wrong for PCS, I shall swap it around there are far more PCS tables than anything else). Advanced Pinball Simulator uses Z and / so no chance there, Night Mission Pinball looks like it uses the fire buttons on controllers one and two! Need to get a software guy who loves pinball to patch the non PCS titles! Once I'm happy it all works as planned I'll share all the files. The current schematic is attached and I've just updated it for the L/R flippers. I've not checked the Sanwa port for correctness yet, I think it's right but there is conflicting information on 'tinternet. I have a joystick here that I'm going to buzz out to make sure. If anyone can think of anything else to improve this or spot any errors please chip in, it's for everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zonie Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 I wonder if Atari Video Pinball is backwards too, although it uses the Joystick, so probably not. MM uses the paddles like it did on the Apple ][. Need to check that. If that is the case, we may need to add a DPDT to swap them. This thing, fully loaded may end up looking like a theatre lighting board, LOL. We could also use an Arduino and touchscreen to create a "Game select" screen so the user can pick from a list but then that is overkill, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 On javatari it's left and right just like PCS. I'm going to make a couple of designs, one with just the three buttons and an up/fire switch (I'll also include the flippers), one with everything. Maybe something I can use to make an Arkanoid controller. I live in terror of making one of these... or these 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 On javatari it's left and right just like PCS. I'm going to make a couple of designs, one with just the three buttons and an up/fire switch (I'll also include the flippers), one with everything. Maybe something I can use to make an Arkanoid controller. I live in terror of making one of these... pacmatt.jpg Fantastic trackball placement! Nothing like being two feet away from and at a 70 degree angle to the playing surface Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 Hello Gunnar Are you sure? IIRC, Sleepy and I once tried a 7800 joystick on either an XL or an XE (maybe on both) and we even opened one up. Pressing the two button was only detected on the trigger pin, not the potentiometer pins. We both came to the conclusion that the resistors inside the 7800 joysticks have the wrong value for the XL/XE to register if the buttons are pushed via the analog ports. Making it impossible to distinguish between the two buttons. Sincerely Mathy The 7800 does not use common ground on the inputs. The resistors (typically 620 nut I always used 560 in mine as they are more common) in the 7800 controller differentiate between "strong" and "weak" logic so that the 7800 can overpower the current sinking capability of the resistors. When operating in 1-button mode on a 7800, or on non-7800 hardware pressing either button drains pin six to ground through a resistor. The paddle pins are normally low on 2600 hardware, so no change is detected on them. When operating in 2-button mode, the strong pin 6 logic signal isn't drained by the resistors, and instead bridged to the paddle pins yielding a high logic signal, which the 7800 detects as a press. To prevent damage to the 7800, the high logic signal is instantly disabled anytime a standard 1-button joystick is plugged in and shunts the strong signal to ground during a fire press. Using an 7800 controller on an SMS or a Genesis controller on a 2-button 7800 game will yeild erratic behaviour of the fire buttons. I built a cigar box controller with 3 buttons and a toggle switch that allows SMS, 7800, and Genesis pad emulation while in 2600 mode. It consisted of a 560 ohm pullup resistor and a diode for the homebrew-compatible SMS circuit, and two 560-ohm resistors for 7800 circuit. I posted the "untested" schematic in another AA thread some time ago, and built a working prototype one year later. SMS controllers won't operate on Atari hardware without a pullup resistor on pin 9. And 330 ohm is a bit lower than needed but should work fine. I would recommend 1kohm for pullups. Sure you can make a custom 3-button controller, but software needs to be created to use it, and homebrew authors are generally reluctant to write code that needs custom built hardware to interface. 3-button Genesis controllers are cheap and plentiful, and were already a popular option for Atari gamers who did not like the CX-40. Layer on when homebrew took off in a big way, it was discovered that the second and third buttons were accessible to software without mods, so programmers started designing games for them. You are free to create a 3-button controller for Atari 8-bits or 2600, but be advised you might be faced with a chicken-and-egg delimma when it comes to support. Also be aware that a third pushbutton switch from pin 5 to ground may be dangerous if plugged into Sega SMS or Genesis hardware, because Sega used pin 5 for vcc instead of Atari's pin 7. So you will need an inline shunt resistor (100 ohms would be adequate to keep low logic below .5v if using a 1k pullup to vcc) between the switch and ground to prevent blowing the 5v regulator if accidentally plugged into Sega hardware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 After a bit of jiggling about I got the board to just under 3 inches by 1 inch. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic Knight Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 After a bit of jiggling about I got the board to just under 3 inches by 1 inch. Looks the business! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zonie Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 Nice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tebe Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 p.s. Spelunker - game with 3 additional keys, F-lare, D-ynamite, SPACE - anti ghost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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