TOS mods/improving 2018

[ParanoidLittleMan]

I made new page with overview:

http://atari.8bitchip.info/tosimpr.html

 

Questions please here or in e-mail - link at main page at bottom: http://atari.8bitchip.info/

Where are some links to related pages too (TOS history ...)

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Counter test. Anyone take care to fix it ?

[vattari]

I recently updated my Mega STE's EPROMs but came across your page while I was thinking of updating my other STs. Great work Petar.

 

I was wondering if your TOS updates will/could have:

- increased number of drives (wasn't sure if you were including this when you mentioned the BigDOS features on your page)

- IDE booting

- Faster startup time, like 2.06

- Minor request feature: TOS version number in the Desk drop down menu. Great if you have a switcher and don't need to recall what year equals what TOS version

 

Looking forward to the updates!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Not sure what you mean under number of drives. Partitions over P - so more than 14 hard disk partitions ? I don't see that as useful.

14 partitions of 1GB - who needs more capacity on some Atari. And actually, there will be much more with Virtual Floppy feature.

IDE booting is OK.

Startup time faster on 2.06 ? Since when ?

TOS v. number indication is good idea. So, in Desktop inf - not in menu - why should I add new item in menu what will be looked only occasionaly ?

Displaying it after reset for short would be good too .

[vattari]

"Drives" is the naming convention used by GEM desktop. I don't believe anyone would say "click on the C: partition icon", but I think you know this...

In the modern age you are more likely to have multiple partitions (4 or more) on the one physical drive, but this was unusual 30 years ago (when drives typically had 3 or less 32MB partitions or not 1 large one), so talking about multiple (physical) drives back then was more appropriate. It would be good to improve the operating system without introducing a new naming convention thought. New icons for modern hardware, yes, but not a new convention, so I think "drives" is still the appropriate term.

 

My case for it is I often need more drive letters especially when I have a CosmosEx connected, however temporarily, to an Atari ST with 8GB internal storage. The updated TOS would also be compatible with users of older hardware who had already taken advantage of BigDOS, Magic or Mint with the 15+ viewable drives. Yes, those users could reformat their high capacity storage to bring it back down to under 14 drives and then put all the data back but that isn't a quick task to perform either.

 

Booting TOS 2.06 with no floppy inserted or hard drive connected would present a desktop faster than the earlier TOSes I found. I wouldn't have no floppy inserted or mass storage option connected, so it would be a very low priority for me personally, but since you asked for ideas, I added it in.

 

Admittedly, I wasn't near an ST when I wrote it but yes, the Desk drop down menu option is "Desktop Info...", but I'm sure you understood that too (much like I know when you wrote "Desktop inf" I know you were talking about the menu option and not the file).

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Hmm. Proper term would be logical drive. Drive stays for floppy A or B.

Indeed, more than 14 of those 'letters' would be good. Even without CE. For instance for UltraSatan with 2 inserted cards, and 10-10 partitions on each.

But things are that I spent more than 2 months only with that FAT16 improving. And there was some luck in all it. I was not sure at all that it will work, at beginning, Remember, there are no sources for TOS 1,04, 1.62 . So, going now, when I need to make some supporting SW for all it - in another deep digging in TOS-s compiled code will take again plenty of time.

I think that best will be to leave that for some later time.

I don't think that I'm capable to satisfy all needs. I even don't know about that BigDOS can handle more than 14 partitions. And I used it a lot in past. Maybe I'm just user who avoids 'more is better' approach

Considering need to repartition their older drives (format is obsolete term, we don't format Flash cards, hard disks made after 1995. Complain to Microsoft, which using it improperly) .- well, I really don't expect that people using their MagiC, Mint will be interested for this TOS mod. BigDOS users yes - they need in theory only to remove BigDOS from AUTO folder, and it should work. Well, depending on driver SW and who knows what.

But I have something other in mind: to be compatible with regular TOS versions, my existing hard disk drivers. So, instead pure DOS partitions using TOS/DOS compatible ones even with this new TOS mod.

With it, access will be with 512 byte long logical sectors, low driver RAM usage. With regular TOS access will be as is now - large sectors, more RAM allocated and less efficient work. TOS/DOS partitioning makes it possible. Only that then will be able to access max 512MB partitions - with reg. TOS. . Well, we are in Flash card times, and I really don't see why should someone go on 16 GB cards . Better is to have more with smaller capacity. Not to mention drives of 200 GB. I tested Mint with 160 GB IDE disk, and that worked not well, because they simply did not test with so big drives then - don't know is it better now. Just that whole thing makes no sense on Atari, really.

There is Raw disk access, what does not care about partition sizes, and it is 32-bit, so can access 2 TB - fast and simple. This is what I see as good for 16 bit Ataris. FAT 32 and Linux file systems are terribly slow on ST(E), need lot of RAM.

Back to 'reformat' - they better reformat it - that, and copy of all files will refresh data. And honestly, how many people with more than 14 partitions on their Atari ST(E) hard drives you know ? I bet, that 99% of them has something faster than ST(E) . And it they have no backups, then ....

 

Booting ST with no floppy inserted is something I don't do, ever. What I do in last years is booting it without floppy drive connected. And part of project is support for floppy-less work. So, really, I have impression that you did not read it carefully. It is not hard to make that time shorter - what is actually intentionally added delay for user to insert floppy ... But really something not of interest when drives and disks going worse and worse. Whole project is hard disk user oriented. (Flash card rather).

 

Anyway, thanx for your suggestions. Some will be implemented.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

I made little mods, what display TOS version and boot progress in TOS 1.04 . Can see how it works in short YT video:

https://youtu.be/Fk97rmaspwU

And here is IMG of it, can try on real HW or in emulator: 14UKV1.ZIP

Edited May 30, 2018 by ParanoidLittleMan

[vattari]

The video looks good Petar. I’ll try this on a Mist (it’s all I have handy at the moment) but will try on real hardware when I’m back home in a few weeks

 

 

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[walter_J64bit]

I made little mods, what display TOS version and boot progress in TOS 1.04 . Can see how it works in short YT video:

https://youtu.be/Fk97rmaspwU

And here is IMG of it, can try on real HW or in emulator: 14UKV1.ZIP

Is there a way to make TOS region free?

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Is there a way to make TOS region free?

Wow ! I know what you want to achieve, but it is not TOS actually who will make things what you don't want - like some SW refusing to work and says something like 'not for that region'. Other thing is refresh rate. There is no way to detect is machine with PAL or NTSC, or even without any color encoder circuit, so TOS will set refresh rate according to what is in TOS header for region. It must set something, and whatever you do, will be not good for some users. If SW will not read region code what expects, at specific address in ROM, it will stop to work - so not possible with TOS mod.

But is possible to add some simple way after boot where user can change refresh rate to 50 or 60 Hz.

I think that I will add it in short delay after TOS version is shown, then user has 1-2 secs to press 5 or 6, what will set it ...

[vattari]

I tried it on my Mist along with some GEM programs and games (8bitchip of course ). Works well.

Is it possible to extend the splash screen to include similar information to EmuTOS’s, or is this overly ambitious?

 

 

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[ParanoidLittleMan]

I tried it on my Mist along with some GEM programs and games (8bitchip of course ). Works well.

Is it possible to extend the splash screen to include similar information to EmuTOS’s, or is this overly ambitious?

 

 

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Of course it is possible. And it is not something hard. But, please don't use words EmuTOS if want to motivate me And especially don't ask that I make simething like it - because then compatibility will fall down to inacceptable level (sorry, but that is what is with it). At the moment, I think that minimal amount of letters is OK, will add there possibility to change refresh rate. But if you give me some concrete hint, what to add I will consider. I will not look what EmuTOS shows after reset - partially because they may accuse me for plagiarism. What I will do must look different.

[Lynxpro]

*Add ATASCII support. That'll give Atari 8-bitters a smile.

 

*Make a larger ROM and include GDOS like Atari Corp should've done with, say, TOS 1.02!

 

 

Is there anything from Antic/STart's Catalog software called Crystal that could be used? Or is the EmuTOS team already using portions of it since they're using old/open sourced DRI x86 code...

 

 

Good job with adding the TOS release version to the Desktop Info screen. Atari Corp should've done that from the, ahem, STart. And the rainbow fuji Atari Corp used in Rainbow TOS should've been as vibrant as it was with the Atari logo used in Atari Inc's Centipede on the 2600 going all the way back to circa 1982, IMHO.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Lynxpro

[ParanoidLittleMan]

*Add ATASCII support. That'll give Atari 8-bitters a smile.

*Make a larger ROM and include GDOS like Atari Corp should've done with, say, TOS 1.02!

Is there anything from Antic/STart's Catalog software called Crystal that could be used? Or is the EmuTOS team already using portions of it since they're using old/open sourced DRI x86 code...

Good job with adding the TOS release version to the Desktop Info screen. Atari Corp should've done that from the, ahem, STart. And the rainbow fuji Atari Corp used in Rainbow TOS should've been as vibrant as it was with the Atari logo used in Atari Inc's Centipede on the 2600 going all the way back to circa 1982, IMHO.

I need to say this: folks, please realistic suggestions.

Why should ST have some Atari XL character set ? Just because some like it. No problem, it can be done. But only on personal request, not as standard feature ...

Making larger ROM is not possible without further changes - space for ROM is determined by HW design. Of course, with some HW add-on can expand it to 1MB, or in extreme case to even 11 MB .

And maybe there is ROM and TOS version where GDOS can already fit: TOS 1.06/1.62 have some 55 KB free space, what can be more than 64 KB after my optimizations.

I'm not familiar with GDOS. It may be that it's code simply works not from ROM, only from RAM - and then no sense to add it to ROM TOS .

Btw. there are already some functions of TOS executing in RAM, but they are short, max some 200-300 bytes.

I looked instead GDOS for screen accelerators like NVDI and Warp. First is too complex, long. Warp is shorter, but it works from RAM, of course. Things are that changing code, so it may work from ROM means that it will be slower - some 20-50%, and that's very hard, especially if no sources. And I don't have 2-3 months to deal with it.

If you put it in ROM, then just copy down to RAM, that's same as loading it from disk, in fact.

I don't think that any part of TOS is open source. It is just that some of sources leaked, and are available. What would help me is not available (1.04, 1.62 src) .

Crystal is just another name for GEM .

I will look about some simple startup graphic, logo . But keep in mind that it is not professional (look)

[vattari]

Of course it is possible. And it is not something hard. But, please don't use words EmuTOS if want to motivate me And especially don't ask that I make simething like it - because then compatibility will fall down to inacceptable level (sorry, but that is what is with it). At the moment, I think that minimal amount of letters is OK, will add there possibility to change refresh rate. But if you give me some concrete hint, what to add I will consider. I will not look what EmuTOS shows after reset - partially because they may accuse me for plagiarism. What I will do must look different.

It would be useful to see on the splash screen:

- CPU type and speed

- Available RAM

 

(Understandably, these might be of more use in emulators where those two may change regularly but still nice to see).

Is adding support for Alt-RAM possible in TOS 1.xx?

 

 

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[ParanoidLittleMan]

Hmmm - people does not change CPU so often. And this TOS mode will be not used by much people - so I really don't see point to show CPU type. In emulators you can check it easily, if you are lost in all experimenting (sometimes happened to me ) .

Speed info is more useful. Considered

Available RAM is not same in moment of boot or AUTO run, and in moment when Desktop starts . Difference is some 20-40 KB depending from TOS v. (clean start) .

But is not problem to print it out in both moments .

 

Surely Alt-RAM support is possible. However, that will be then rather TOS 2.06 , I guess . It is possible to use TOS 2.06 core with Desktop of 1.04 or 1.62 - but has it any sense ? So, I would say that use TOS 2.06 with alt RAM. In case of 1.04 adding it would increase code size, and then may not fit in 192 KB.

The real question would be: is it worth to add improved FAT16 to TOS 2.06 ? People forgets that all it needs lot of time.

1.04 and 1.62 are almost same. So, once I solved it in 1.04, was easy to add in 1.62. 2.06 is another story. Maybe possible to do it with available sources ... But that's again longer task.

And probably most important: use TOS switch ! That's simple and most effective solution. Whatever mods, improving you do, there will be always SW what works not with it, and/or some original TOS versions.

[vattari]

Improved hard drive support (more efficient cluster sizes in FAT16 and IDE booting) across all versions are the features I would make the most of.

 

 

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[ParanoidLittleMan]

Just to clarify: there will be no mods of any other TOS versions this year than 1.04 and 1.62 and combining them with 2.06. Will be no mods of AES, Desktop, except icons. And maybe some bug fixes by need. You will have new features, and comfortable Desktop of 2.06 . And very likely that will be all from me. I'm not that young anymore. To add that older ones, like 1.02 are out of question.

 

Btw. it is not cluster size, but logical sector size what is more efficient. Cluster sizes are actually same when FAT16 is in question in case of DOS and TOS (and that's on what is TOS/DOS compatible partitioning based). Other thing is that count of clusters is limited too in regular TOS, it will be with improved TOS 65000 instead 32000 .

My new partitioner, what is under work will create such partitions which will be accessible with regular TOS (up to 512 MB, or only 256 with 1.02) and with improved too - then less RAM usage, better efficiency and up to 1 GB . So, can make some compatible partitions, and some larger ones, only for improved, on same media.

[Lynxpro]

I need to say this: folks, please realistic suggestions.

Why should ST have some Atari XL character set ? Just because some like it. No problem, it can be done. But only on personal request, not as standard feature ...

Making larger ROM is not possible without further changes - space for ROM is determined by HW design. Of course, with some HW add-on can expand it to 1MB, or in extreme case to even 11 MB .

And maybe there is ROM and TOS version where GDOS can already fit: TOS 1.06/1.62 have some 55 KB free space, what can be more than 64 KB after my optimizations.

I'm not familiar with GDOS. It may be that it's code simply works not from ROM, only from RAM - and then no sense to add it to ROM TOS .

Btw. there are already some functions of TOS executing in RAM, but they are short, max some 200-300 bytes.

I looked instead GDOS for screen accelerators like NVDI and Warp. First is too complex, long. Warp is shorter, but it works from RAM, of course. Things are that changing code, so it may work from ROM means that it will be slower - some 20-50%, and that's very hard, especially if no sources. And I don't have 2-3 months to deal with it.

If you put it in ROM, then just copy down to RAM, that's same as loading it from disk, in fact.

I don't think that any part of TOS is open source. It is just that some of sources leaked, and are available. What would help me is not available (1.04, 1.62 src) .

Crystal is just another name for GEM .

I will look about some simple startup graphic, logo . But keep in mind that it is not professional (look)

 

I take issue with the "realistic suggestions" comment. ATASCII character support should've been included in TOS since day 1, just as PETSCII should've been included in AmigaOS also since day 1 of their hardware release. You don't get more "real Atari" than an Atari 8-bit character set and obviously more useful than including the Bob character from the Cult of the SubGenius which was included in TOS from the very start.

 

GDOS obviously would increase the size of the ROMs and probably would be a lot of work. And while NVDI is a common request/wish list/bucket list suggestion, the IP owner hasn't given permission nor open-sourced it as of yet. One day, it will make a great addition.

 

"Crystal" was the code name for GEM originally but that's not what I was referring to. I was referring to this:

 

http://www.atarimania.com/catalogues/hi_res/cat298010.jpg

 

http://www.atarimania.com/utility-atari-st-crystal_28149.html [it hasn't been dumped]

 

I did misremember about Antic Publishing supposedly claiming it had features DRI created that were missing from Atari's version of GEM. That's because the custom icons do look like early DRI GEM icons compared to the Atari icon versions, IMHO...

[ParanoidLittleMan]

OK, I see your points Lynxpro. Do not agree about XL fonts. Atari ST was designed as more serious and what is more important: as computer compatible with existing standards. I'm not sure are character sets in XL machines standard. Of course, that will not prevent someone to make their codes, order standard, and put it in ST TOS . May be some extra work needed if characters are not 8x8 px size. Actually, for high res it will be needed for sure, since it is 8x16 ... So, here is the thing: if you provide me extracted ASCII character set from XL, with some basic info - with what it starts, what code, dimensions in pixels, end char. , code I can see what can do about. But it will be not standard feature, just optional.

So, Crystal is just set of icons. And dead link will not help me in dealing with it

It's http://www.atarimania.com/utility-atari-st-crystal_28149.html

http://www.atarimania.com/utility-atari-st-crystal_28150.html

That will not go in TOS ROM, because it belongs not to TOS. That advertisement just telling lies, or they are wrong. This is set of diverse icons, what programmers can add to their GEM SW. Why should be it in TOS ? Today you can DL zillions of icons for free online. End of story..

Edited June 14, 2018 by ParanoidLittleMan

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Here are 2 YT videos where can see what new is in - considering boot flow and added memory usage values in Desktop Info.

https://youtu.be/r3SSagYt-ec

https://youtu.be/SlumPA1967g

Second one is with running game starting from AUTO folder.

This should be final updates (well, logo must be not red ) .

Some explanations for shown memory related info: Free RAM is actually size of largest free memory block - in normal case there is only 1 block, so that's really all Free RAM - for some PRG .

Membot may be very useful info for case when there is some resident SW like ACC, some driver - then it is (much) higher, and that not just lowers free RAM, but can prevent some SW to run properly - mostly games coded to run in lower RAM area,

And if you start some SW, then exit it, you may see that after every run free RAM is less by 14 bytes, while Membot goes higher for 14 bytes. That's because not really proper done RAM freeing of TOS. But not much, really. I guess that nobody will start SW 1000 times without resetting machine in meantime

 

14UKV3D.ZIP

Image for ST (modded TOS 1.04) - if no EPROM programmer or time, can test in emulators .

 

[Lynxpro]

Here are 2 YT videos where can see what new is in - considering boot flow and added memory usage values in Desktop Info.

https://youtu.be/r3SSagYt-ec

https://youtu.be/SlumPA1967g

Second one is with running game starting from AUTO folder.

This should be final updates (well, logo must be not red ) .

Some explanations for shown memory related info: Free RAM is actually size of largest free memory block - in normal case there is only 1 block, so that's really all Free RAM - for some PRG .

Membot may be very useful info for case when there is some resident SW like ACC, some driver - then it is (much) higher, and that not just lowers free RAM, but can prevent some SW to run properly - mostly games coded to run in lower RAM area,

And if you start some SW, then exit it, you may see that after every run free RAM is less by 14 bytes, while Membot goes higher for 14 bytes. That's because not really proper done RAM freeing of TOS. But not much, really. I guess that nobody will start SW 1000 times without resetting machine in meantime

 

14UKV3D.ZIP

Image for ST (modded TOS 1.04) - if no EPROM programmer or time, can test in emulators .

 

 

That's cool. Free RAM and TOS version should've been included in the Desktop Info from the start by Atari Corp. And it isn't in an annoying location like on the Amiga Workbench in a contemporary comparison.

 

I like the Atari logo at startup, but why did you use the [often hated] Infogrames' Atari logo? The color red was used by Atari Corp to distinguish the 8-bit computer line from the ST on boxes and promo material. Blue was used for the ST line. So if you had the Fuji to the left of the Atari name and in blue, it would be period-correct, so to speak.

 

Now, does it appear at all with a monochrome monitor?

 

Hmm...I wonder if there's a YM2149 audio version of the "Have you played Atari today?" jingle. That would be cool for startup music. It was definitely a nice touch on the Jaguar, IMHO.

 

Awesome work.

[Level42]

Cool work. I'm actually looking into putting 4 TOSes into my MegaSTE and this looks very interesting.

 

Really like the added boot up features but that horrendous Infogrames era logo.....please no.....

 

This is from LONG after the ST period and it's ugly and a pure insult to the original Atari (Fuji) logo. IMHO it should be the Atari Fuji and then the Atari name in the well known Atari font in blue....just like Tramiel Atari used.

 

Anyway...great work...I need to get my EPROM burner out....I have ten 1Mbit EPROMS here and some need to be filled with 4 TOSes

[ParanoidLittleMan]

1MBit EPROMs with 4 TOSes - something is wrong in your calc. 4 Mbit is what you need. 1 TOS = 1 Mbit x 2 chips. Although, you may be joking. Never joke with bits, bytes, guns and wife !

I had divine inspiration yesterday, so made new logo, absolutely only my design. Pure txt, just in special order. Soon YT video. Blue ? Maybe to make it Rainbow too ? Then will be no complains about color used. But that's not original. Hard problem, really

[ParanoidLittleMan]

2 videos of how boot sequence will look - probably final version.

https://youtu.be/QK-RNN1Uo0c

 

https://youtu.be/Dospr7v6TDM

 

Can change refresh rate in color mode, invert black and white colors, prevent AUTO run.