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NES Ninja Gaiden question: Is it cheating?


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#1 atarilovesyou OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 31, 2018 11:43 PM

Excuse me if I've already asked this at some point, but for those of you familiar with Ninja Gaiden on NES, a question:

 

If you don't want to use your magic items, you can simply press 'up' and hit the fire button.  This was given away as an easter egg of sorts back in the day, and makes the game much, much easier (especially the bosses, as you can just whoop em with the spin attack).  The move wasn't described in the english instruction manual, but I've heard rumours that it was actually in the Japanese one and was lost in translation. 

 

What's your take on it?  Do you consider this a 'cheat' of sorts?  Was the game ever meant to utilize this trick? You'll notice that the sequels, the trick doesn't work (well, I can't say 100%...I don't recall it anyway), and they removed the ultra powerful spin attack from the list of available magic.  So those games are still hard as balls, particularly the third one.  For this mortal, anyway.

 

What do you guys think? Does anybody have some info about the Japanese manual?  I'd be interested to hear opinions.  Personally?  I...hate to say it, but I think it's a cheat.  The game is ridiculously frustrating in one particular area, and the final boss sequences are killer without the use of the spin attack.  Back in the day, though, I would use the spin attack...which would mean saving magic points, avoiding getting new magic, and hopefully making it to the boss to rock it.  But that's just me.  I have finished the game both ways. 

 

What sayeth you?



#2 icemanxp300 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 31, 2018 11:45 PM

If it's in the game w/out a cheat device like a game genie, then it's good as far as I'm concerned.



#3 LidLikesIntellivision OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 1, 2018 4:25 AM

 

 

If you don't want to use your magic items, you can simply press 'up' and hit the fire button.  

I didn't understand it. I press up and the fire button in order to use magic items.

 

Are you saying you press up, release it, and then press fire button? If that's the case, what happens? You swing your sword, use a magic item without losing your magic points, use another special attack?

 

If by doing this you don't waste magic points and you can use your magic item forever, I'd say it's a bug and I consider exploiting bug as cheating if you're playing in a competition. 

If your spin attack, caused by this move, is a different attack, it can't be cheating, even if it's more powerful than the limited magic items. Not a bug, not cheating, just bad gaming design.

 

Finally, if you're playing alone, play as you wish. 

Normally you want to have fun, so play the way you enjoy the most even if it envolves turbo controller, infinite lives or whatever.


Edited by LidLikesIntellivision, Fri Jun 1, 2018 4:36 AM.


#4 atarilovesyou OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 1, 2018 8:19 AM

Wow, I really worded that poorly!

The trick is actually only useable when you have the spin attack. Normally you spin attack every time you press B. But if you press up while you have spin attack, you just do a regular slash. Saves your limited magic points so you can use it on the bosses (one shot kill, usually). Its still a lil tricky to do but makes the final level much easier.

Sorry for the confusion!

#5 NE146 ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 1, 2018 8:46 AM

Yes it's only on the spin attack, where that magic is different since you don't have to push up to use it, but rather push up to not use it.

 

I thought it was pretty darn obvious back in 1989 or whatever :P  it just works differently on that magic. Definitely not a "cheat" of any sort.


Edited by NE146, Fri Jun 1, 2018 8:47 AM.


#6 Pixelboy ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 1, 2018 9:18 AM

Yes it's only on the spin attack, where that magic is different since you don't have to push up to use it, but rather push up to not use it.
 
I thought it was pretty darn obvious back in 1989 or whatever :P  it just works differently on that magic. Definitely not a "cheat" of any sort.


So it's a 100% accurate application of the saying "It's not a bug, it's a feature". :)

#7 mbd30 ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 1, 2018 9:23 AM

Is it cheating to spam down+B to do rapid slashing on bosses? As long as it's part of the game and not a cheat code then I wouldn't really consider it cheating, although there are borderline cases such as the pause exploit in Blaster Master and Mega Man.

 

Ninja Gaiden 2 doesn't have the overpowered spin slash. Instead it has the overpowered shadow clones.

 

Ninja Gaiden 3 doesn't have any overpowered attacks, but it also doesn't have respawning enemies. It's still the hardest NG game.



#8 Opry99er OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 1, 2018 12:00 PM

Naw.... it's just utilizing a strategy. Not cheating in any way.


Kind of like figuring out that in the original tecmo bowl, the Chicago Bears have a pass play where a receiver runs a slant route that cannot be intercepted, even if the opponent calls the same play. Call that play and throw long to Willie Gault on a streak if the opponent picks a different play, but if they call the same play, switch to the receiver on the slant route and throw as quick as you can. No chance to be intercepted.... Cheating? No... just finding the quirks in the game and using your knowledge to maximize your efficiency.

#9 Tanooki ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 1, 2018 3:41 PM

I'd think in general anything the game was designed for isn't cheating.  If you find a bug or a bad design flaw that ruins the intent of the game though, that would be.  Something that causes you and anyone else if it's competitive to solely master the cheat to have a win be likely at all would fall into that.



#10 Opry99er OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 1, 2018 5:18 PM

What would you say about the Mario Kart 64 shortcuts where you can hop over a rail and land on the track below and cut 3 minutes off a lap?

#11 PFG 9000 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 1, 2018 5:25 PM

That's definitely not cheating. It's just a move that makes sense. You have this cool spin attack that activates automatically when you attack in mid-air. But in a game where you frequently have to attack during a jump, it wouldn't be fair* to make you burn through a special attack when you don't intend to use it. None of the other specials are automatic, except for the Art of Fire Wheel, which only makes sense because it would be overpowered if you could trigger it at will.

*not that Ninja Gaiden ever concerned itself with fairness

#12 NE146 ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 1, 2018 5:50 PM

Yep.. you didn't even KNOW that the spin attack was powerful until you actually tried it.. which is semi-difficult since like you said, the game gives you many other weapons along the way afterward. So you probably are pretty skilled at the game before you even decide to try and hold onto it for the boss. I remember when I did and it was a really nice surprise that it killed them quickly.. so it's definitely a design of the game made to award you for doing that. It's about as much of a "cheat" as discovering what weapon works best on a boss in Megaman. :)


Edited by NE146, Fri Jun 1, 2018 5:51 PM.


#13 atarilovesyou OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 1, 2018 6:37 PM

Good points all around. I still wonder why it wasn't documented in the instructions. Tecmo seems to have a few games where thy could be looked at as strategies, or bugs. Tecmo Bowl was mentioned, and Rygar's tower where you can grind experience for ten minutes, and then one-shot most enemies for the remainder of the game.

As far as Gaidens spin attack, it substantially lowers the difficulty of the game in two key areas. I know it was brutally unforgiving without the tactic back in the day, made worse by having to start from the beginning of the entire stage if you die during a boss battle. That happens potentially three times in Gaidens final Jaquio battle. With a loaded magic spin attack, you can do it on the first try.

#14 Opry99er OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 1, 2018 7:54 PM

I loved the physics of Gaiden back in the day when I was a kid.... I remember it being so intuitive and responsive....

I recently played it as an adult and I just got my ass kicked all the way to Christmas.... I need to pick up another copy and give it another go.

#15 Austin OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jun 2, 2018 5:54 AM

That happens potentially three times in Gaidens final Jaquio battle. With a loaded magic spin attack, you can do it on the first try.

 

Or you could just, I don't know.. learn the boss patterns and not need the spin slash.



#16 atarilovesyou OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jun 4, 2018 10:18 PM

 

Or you could just, I don't know.. learn the boss patterns and not need the spin slash.

I'm sure you could, and did :D  The amount of time you get to spend in each of those final three boss rooms to learn the patterns is...pretty short.  I beat the game for the first time without spins for the most part.  I'd probably chalk it up to luck, maybe fire magic as well...I'll have to revisit on the NES Classic with some save states. 

 

Being able to use conserve the spin attack along the route is challenging enough, lol...but I always thought that if the 'non-spin' attack wasn't a bug, then why wouldn't they put it in the manual, just like every other move you can use?  Tecmo had pretty comprehensive manuals, from what I can remember.

 

I also seem to remember realizing that you had to defeat the end boss three times was about as punch-you-in-the-gut as finishing Ghosts n Goblins....on the first round :D



#17 mbd30 ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Jun 5, 2018 8:32 AM

I'm sure you could, and did :D  The amount of time you get to spend in each of those final three boss rooms to learn the patterns is...pretty short.  I beat the game for the first time without spins for the most part.  I'd probably chalk it up to luck, maybe fire magic as well...I'll have to revisit on the NES Classic with some save states. 

 

Fortunately the patterns are fairly simple to learn. For example, Jaquio just moves back and forth and shoots fireballs. The main thing is learning how to avoid the fireballs and being able to slash him without bumping into him. Remember that the fireballs won't keep chasing you as long as you're on the ground. Some players attack him from the platforms. IMO, it's easier to grab the wall and jump out and slash him as he moves toward you.


Edited by mbd30, Tue Jun 5, 2018 8:45 AM.


#18 Cynicaster ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Jun 5, 2018 8:51 AM

I asked my pal Walter Smith, and he confirmed that the technique is totally acceptable. 

 

Capture.JPG



#19 atarilovesyou OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jun 5, 2018 4:47 PM

I asked my pal Walter Smith, and he confirmed that the technique is totally acceptable. 

 

attachicon.gifCapture.JPG

...well of course, he'd be the authority on this one.  Where is this uber nice screen capture from?  The SNES compilation?



#20 DJ Clae OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jun 6, 2018 3:25 PM

How is this a cheat? It's just what you press when you don't want to do the attack. Confusing thread.

#21 atarilovesyou OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:37 PM

How is this a cheat? It's just what you press when you don't want to do the attack. Confusing thread.

The thing is that the move to 'not' do the spin attack was never in the official manual, and was more or less revealed as an easter egg of sorts in gaming mags of the day.  Maybe not so much a cheat, but a big help...for all the reasons above.  Was it a bug, was it intentionally put in the game...I was curious, but I guess we'll never really know. 



#22 DJ Clae OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:02 AM

From my perspective growing up with this game, it was never a secret. Anyone can learn it simply from manipulating the d-pad. Down is the opposite of up, which is direction you press to use your sub weapon. It's just intuitive.

Just because something is not mentioned in the manual doesn't make it a secret. That may just be an oversight.

#23 NE146 ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:26 AM

From my perspective growing up with this game, it was never a secret. Anyone can learn it simply from manipulating the d-pad. Down is the opposite of up, which is direction you press to use your sub weapon. It's just intuitive.

 

Actually you press up.   :)  But I agree.. it was never a secret.. 

 

Put it this way: is the OP saying because it wasn't in the manual that a person wouldn't try to hold up+button on the spin attack? I mean most of us never even read the manual anyway :lol: so once we figured out how to launch a special attack, you would naturally try it on ALL of them.. and why not? 

 

... and here's the instructions in question. I say it was the manual writers fault. :lol: 

 

Image1.jpg



#24 Daj OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:16 AM

 

Actually you press up.   :)  

 

It was down the last time I checked. If up also works, that's interesting to know.



#25 mbd30 ONLINE  

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Posted Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:39 AM

...


Edited by mbd30, Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:41 AM.





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