Gyruss for Intellivision?

[m-crew]

One last tidbit. I was told something by a friend 35 years ago and it hit home and stuck with me. Forgive for you! It is true. No need to carry any "crap" around. Let it go. Shit, Now Disney will be after me.

A wise friend for sure...

 

One must be given the chance to show that they are truly sorry for their actions and are willing to change their ways and are truly working to gain peoples trust once again...

[+DZ-Jay]

Here is my problem with the Dino bashing. He has admitted his guilt, he has returned all money collected and has stated he will never sell the games.

 

First, he did not admit his guilt. He keeps insisting it was an "honest mistake" and that he "didn't know" it belonged to someone else. That is the problem. He got caught and he is in "damage control mode." There's no remorse there, there is no admission of guilt.

 

Second, it's not about "Dino bashing" or holding a grudge or punishing him. It's about not tolerating this sort of behaviour at all. Full Stop.

 

I do not wish any community to which I belong to consider that sort of behaviour acceptable in any way. The Intellivision enthusiast and programming community is very small, and we should foster an environment of openness and collaboration. Taking someone's work for your own must not be welcomed.

 

-dZ.

[+nanochess]

^^ This ^^

[m-crew]

First, he did not admit his guilt. He keeps insisting it was an "honest mistake" and that he "didn't know" it belonged to someone else. That is the problem. He got caught and he is in "damage control mode." There's no remorse there, there is no admission of guilt.

Well said,

A first step in regaining trust and forgiveness..

[1980gamer]

First, he did not admit his guilt. He keeps insisting it was an "honest mistake" and that he "didn't know" it belonged to someone else. That is the problem. He got caught and he is in "damage control mode." There's no remorse there, there is no admission of guilt.

 

"First of all I also want to apologize publicly with Arturo Ragozini, in the game of Gyruss even if in open source it was used too much of its code and was not asked for a legitimate permission that justly deserved."

 

Second, it's not about "Dino bashing" or holding a grudge or punishing him. It's about not tolerating this sort of behaviour at all. Full Stop.

 

AT ALL? Hmmm, that GHOST looks somewhat familiar to me? Could swear I've seen it some place else?

Love Carol. But I think maybe some elements of the game may have been "borrowed". With full permission I am certain. "sarcastically joking"

 

DZ, I know you talked about how Carol evolved from a Pac Man project. You acknowledge many elements of the game are from Pac Man.

That is cool. I personally think Carol is very original. But others may think differently. I would defend you stating your case as well, to anyone that wanted you banned or whatever.

 

I do not wish any community to which I belong to consider that sort of behaviour acceptable in any way.

I agree 100%

 

The Intellivision enthusiast and programming community is very small, and we should foster an environment of openness and collaboration.

Again, I agree 100%

We are so open and collaborative that someone took shared code and used it.

The problem is without asking for permission or giving credit. I don't know Dino, never heard of him before this thread. It seems others have opinions of him.

I do not listen to the noise. I form my own opinions based on what I personally know. Not what someone else thinks.

 

 

Taking someone's work for your own must not be welcomed.

Again I agree 100%.

 

Please understand, I am not defending Dino, he was clearly wrong. But when called out, he has done the right things up to his banning.

I am guessing His changes to Artrag's work were minimal. Maybe a title screen? Maybe a graphic or two? Who knows? Only Dino. It would have been nice if he posted the source as I have stated prior.

 

Banning / Shunning Intellivision enthusiast is not openness or collaborative. I am not saying be his friend or even trust him. But it was said here, he must earn trust. Okay, how does that happen now?

 

#metoo Where if you once winked at someone, that is equivalent to the person that raped.

 

If we have a zero tolerance policy in the community, We must all burn our DK Arcade, DIIK, Carol etc. etc. And I like them, so I am not for zero tolerance.

 

I have purchased all of the available roms. I don't want to have to delete them too!

 

I hope I am making my point... If not, I guess I will come off as an @$$ or defender of the guilty. Either way, this is between Arturo and Dino ultimately.

 

Individuals will either boycott Chick Fillet or not. Of course at the price Dino was asking....I would boycotting an original Picasso!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mr_me]

A lot of people have the misconception that if a programmer shares their work on the internet, it's public domain.

 

A lot of people don't ever go in the Intellivision programmer subforum and have no idea what's there.

 

---------

The behaviour people are talking about is software piracy. That's much more serious than a copyright violation like using a graphic from pac-man. And using someone else's game idea and adapting it is perfectly acceptable.

Edited June 16, 2018 by mr_me

[artrag]

First, he did not admit his guilt. He keeps insisting it was an "honest mistake" and that he "didn't know" it belonged to someone else. That is the problem. He got caught and he is in "damage control mode." There's no remorse there, there is no admission of guilt.

 

"First of all I also want to apologize publicly with Arturo Ragozini, in the game of Gyruss even if in open source it was used too much of its code and was not asked for a legitimate permission that justly deserved."

 

Second, it's not about "Dino bashing" or holding a grudge or punishing him. It's about not tolerating this sort of behaviour at all. Full Stop.

 

AT ALL? Hmmm, that GHOST looks somewhat familiar to me? Could swear I've seen it some place else?

Love Carol. But I think maybe some elements of the game may have been "borrowed". With full permission I am certain. "sarcastically joking"

 

DZ, I know you talked about how Carol evolved from a Pac Man project. You acknowledge many elements of the game are from Pac Man.

That is cool. I personally think Carol is very original. But others may think differently. I would defend you stating your case as well, to anyone that wanted you banned or whatever.

 

I do not wish any community to which I belong to consider that sort of behaviour acceptable in any way.

I agree 100%

 

The Intellivision enthusiast and programming community is very small, and we should foster an environment of openness and collaboration.

Again, I agree 100%

We are so open and collaborative that someone took shared code and used it.

The problem is without asking for permission or giving credit. I don't know Dino, never heard of him before this thread. It seems others have opinions of him.

I do not listen to the noise. I form my own opinions based on what I personally know. Not what someone else thinks.

 

 

Taking someone's work for your own must not be welcomed.

Again I agree 100%.

 

Please understand, I am not defending Dino, he was clearly wrong. But when called out, he has done the right things up to his banning.

I am guessing His changes to Artrag's work were minimal. Maybe a title screen? Maybe a graphic or two? Who knows? Only Dino. It would have been nice if he posted the source as I have stated prior.

 

Banning / Shunning Intellivision enthusiast is not openness or collaborative. I am not saying be his friend or even trust him. But it was said here, he must earn trust. Okay, how does that happen now?

 

#metoo Where if you once winked at someone, that is equivalent to the person that raped.

 

If we have a zero tolerance policy in the community, We must all burn our DK Arcade, DIIK, Carol etc. etc. And I like them, so I am not for zero tolerance.

 

I have purchased all of the available roms. I don't want to have to delete them too!

 

I hope I am making my point... If not, I guess I will come off as an @$$ or defender of the guilty. Either way, this is between Arturo and Dino ultimately.

 

Individuals will either boycott Chick Fillet or not. Of course at the price Dino was asking....I would boycotting an original Picasso!

 

 

 

 

 

 

You have very few ideas and well confused about copyright in software and derivative rights. You put on the same plane ripping sources and graphic and doing from scratch a work that mildly reminds to other works as cultural reference, limits of the medium or what else.

 

In your vision after supermario all platforms with a jumping character are infringing Nintendo's rights.

Anyway as you say the issue is with me and my sources. If you believe to is good faith it is because you are not fully into the history.

 

He does not want to show/publish his Rupp off of my game, I do to want his fake apologies and lies and cannot trust his about not selling the game in future.

 

 

Not that we are speaking about 200 copies (not 100!!!) at 150 euros each = 30.0000 euros of tax free income.

Edited June 16, 2018 by artrag

[1980gamer]

A lot of people have the misconception that if a programmer shares their work on the internet, it's public domain.

 

A lot of people don't ever go in the Intellivision programmer subforum and have no idea what's there.

 

---------

The behaviour people are talking about is software piracy. That's much more serious than a copyright violation like using a graphic from pac-man. And using someone else's game idea and adapting it is perfectly acceptable.

Glad you missed my point...

 

I was not saying copyright infringement and software piracy are the same at all. That was aimed at the ZERO tolerance piece.

And YES, we tolerate lots of both around here. Space Cam't is certainly not Intellivision Productions IP right?

Disassembling or reading the source code of Donkey Kong, to base your own code on is also okay. Hell even the sound FX are verbatim.

 

Stealing YES stealing this IP is all good for some reason.

 

This in no way get's Dino off the hook. Just wondering were the "Intellectual property" line of morality lies?

[m-crew]

Just wondering were the "Intellectual property" line of morality lies?

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

 

Animal Farm

 

George Orwell

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/279556-gyruss-for-intellivision/?p=4048656

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/279556-gyruss-for-intellivision/?p=4048660

 

Just answering my opinion on that question..

 

History over the years here has shown this be ..

[m-crew]

[1980gamer]

"You have very few ideas and well confused about copyright in software and derivative rights. You put on the same plane ripping sources and graphic and doing from scratch a work that mildly reminds to other works as cultural reference, limits of the medium or what else."

 

Not at all, just wondering why it is okay for some, but not all? Oh, because it happened to you, Now I get it. Think about that the next time you download a song for free,

 

"In your vision after supermario all platforms with a jumping character are infringing Nintendo's rights.
Anyway as you say the issue is with me and my sources. If you believe to is good faith it is because you are not fully into the history."

 

REALLY?, You know what I think. That is mighty impressive. What am I thinking right now?

Pretty clearly I stated Christmas Carol was an original work, even though DZ talked about it morphing from Pac Man.

"He does not want to show/publish his Rupp off of my game, I do to want his fake apologies and lies and cannot trust his about not selling the game in future."
I agree, he should have put his version up for you to look over. That will not happen now for certain.

Not that we are speaking about 200 copies (not 100!!!) at 150 euros each = 30.0000 euros of tax free income.

Yes, I think he would has sold a few. But he would be hard pressed to sell 200 @ 150. Plus you seem to think cart cases, pcb's, logic chips, design, boxes, assembly etc. are all free.

Were can I get the that deal?

 

Once again, I am totally on your side. I cannot state that enough, but it seems it is missed, so I just did again.

 

But pouring logic on this fire makes it spread like water on a grease fire.

[Keatah]

More and more of this community will be choosing to do this... The Day of buying every release is over for the common folks/collectors around here. Quality ,Fun Value , and price of games will dictate.. Not the completest mentality anymore..

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/275621-astro-invader-coming-soon-for-the-intellivision/?p=4018299

 

That's a hard thing about collecting, transitioning from being a Completist to an Ordinary/Gamer style of collector. Sort of feels like giving up. And that can cause one to give up the hobby.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Keatah

[mr_me]

Glad you missed my point...

 

I was not saying copyright infringement and software piracy are the same at all. That was aimed at the ZERO tolerance piece.

And YES, we tolerate lots of both around here. Space Cam't is certainly not Intellivision Productions IP right?

Disassembling or reading the source code of Donkey Kong, to base your own code on is also okay. Hell even the sound FX are verbatim.

 

Stealing YES stealing this IP is all good for some reason.

 

This in no way get's Dino off the hook. Just wondering were the "Intellectual property" line of morality lies?

My apologies, it just looked that way to me. And it's aleady been explained that for many people here piracy against a faceless corporation and old ip is okay. And for whatever reason Keith R fell in that group. And if someone disagrees with that and bought any of those cartridges or rom files they would also be guilty. Surely the target of zero tolerance was clear. I understood it; not saying I necessarily agree with it.

 

Disassembling someone's code for analysis is perfectly legal. Direct translation of portions would be a copyright violation but not at the same level as piracy; more like infringing on graphics and sounds. A very short sound sample should fall under legal fair use.

Edited June 16, 2018 by mr_me

[+DZ-Jay]

​

 

Glad you missed my point...

 

I was not saying copyright infringement and software piracy are the same at all. That was aimed at the ZERO tolerance piece.

And YES, we tolerate lots of both around here. Space Cam't is certainly not Intellivision Productions IP right?

Disassembling or reading the source code of Donkey Kong, to base your own code on is also okay. Hell even the sound FX are verbatim.

 

 

If you've known me at all, or at the very least have seen me posting around here before, I am one that criticizes that too. It's fine to do it for your own educational purposes, but publishing someone else's IP and calling it your own is not something I support nor condone.

 

 

AT ALL? Hmmm, that GHOST looks somewhat familiar to me? Could swear I've seen it some place else?
Love Carol. But I think maybe some elements of the game may have been "borrowed". With full permission I am certain. "sarcastically joking"

DZ, I know you talked about how Carol evolved from a Pac Man project. You acknowledge many elements of the game are from Pac Man.
That is cool. I personally think Carol is very original. But others may think differently. I would defend you stating your case as well, to anyone that wanted you banned or whatever.

You are way off-base if you are comparing the act of basing my game on Pac-Man -- with wholly original code, hand-crafted by me, including all elements of story, graphics, music, and game-play (not have ever even once seen any source code to Pac-Man) -- with Dino stealing Arturo's source code and using it for his own. I guess the fact that those elements which are from Pac-Man have been re-imagined into a different context, escaped you.

Can you really be that obtuse?

I am not going into this conversation with you. How dare you accuse me in such a weaselly passive-aggressive manner of doing the same that Dino has?

You want to forgive Dino? You want to go buy his tainted goods? You want to enrich your collection with just one more "rare" item? Go ahead.

I sleep very well at night knowing that I never took anything from anybody without permission or invitation, and that I have acknowledged very well all the influences of my game, including all of those without whose assistance, guidance, and patience, the game would not have been possible. I know I have given enough thanks, credit, and appreciation to all of them, and I do my best to pay back to the community with assistance and guidance of my own. What have you done???

-dZ.

[m-crew]

​

 

 

If you've known me at all, or at the very least have seen me posting around here before, I am one that criticizes that too.

 

-dZ.

I have to back DZ on this point, he say's things how he see it to be. One of few that calls things/people out. Right or Wrong..

 

I am glad he is around and voices his opinion's that's for sure..

[m-crew]

That's a hard thing about collecting, transitioning from being a completist to Ordinary/Gamer sty of collector. Sort of feels like giving up. And that can cause one to give up the hobby.

Here's a saying on old friend used to tell me...

 

"Let go of the Peanut"

 

 

Im sure a lot of people will be forced to give up on the completest...

[Keatah]

Banning / Shunning Intellivision enthusiast is not openness or collaborative. I am not saying be his friend or even trust him. But it was said here, he must earn trust. Okay, how does that happen now?

 

#metoo Where if you once winked at someone, that is equivalent to the person that raped.

 

If we have a zero tolerance policy in the community, We must all burn our DK Arcade, DIIK, Carol etc. etc. And I like them, so I am not for zero tolerance.

 

Agree, it will never happen now. And we will never know.

 

Rightly or wrongly I believe he was banned prematurely.

[mr_me]

...A very short sound sample should fall under legal fair use.

I think that's wrong. If it's recognisable, it's likely infringing.

[1980gamer]

DZ. I guess I didn't make the point I was trying too. I used Carol as a case subject.

 

That was supposed to be clear with the #metoo line.

 

Anyway, I was trying to look at Carol from an outsider's perspective. Someone sees the ghost. Or eating the candy, the Snowflakes.

The point was, what if someone called for you to be banned. I was saying I would defend you completely. And that your game was original in my opinion.

 

I was not intending to be passive aggressive in the least. But, tone and inflections are lost on the page. I wish I were a wordsmith, but I am not.

 

"You are way off-base if you are comparing the act of basing my game on Pac-Man -- with wholly original code, hand-crafted by me, including all elements of story, graphics, music, and game-play (not have ever even once seen any source code to Pac-Man) -- with Dino stealing Arturo's source code and using it for his own. I guess the fact that those elements which are from Pac-Man have been re-imagined into a different context, escaped you."

 

Just wondering were I made this comparison?

 

Oh, examining source code and taking soundfx was referring to Donkey Kong. Not your game. Sorry if that was not clear.

 

And even in the case of DK, What Dino did is far worse. Carl had to convert everything to 1610 and screen resolution etc. He did that. No one else.

It still is beyond blatantly plagiarism. Just in the title alone! Maybe CM had permission? But knowing a little about Nintendo,,,,

 

I also did a pacman port for the TI99. I didn't use any source code etc. All homegrown. But I would never claim I created the game! I tried my best to make it play like the original as I could.

Not very successfully, but it looks pretty close. I even wanted to look over the source to figure out how the ghost patterns worked. But I just used a randomness with some attraction to pacman.

My own shitty algorithm. Still doesn't make my game original. The source code, yes. The game, No.

 

Anyway, at this point I am just repeating and rehashing the same thing over and over.

 

You have been a voice of moral compass in the past. You got flamed for it. I defended you! That is part of why I figured Carol was a good case to use. Oh well. Wrong again.

[+nanochess]

It's a falacy to use Pac-Man as example. Given a game exists, nothing prevents anyone of creating something similar just by watching it playing.

 

It's part of the learning curve of any programmer and it's not illegal unless you try to sell it as the original Pac-Man.

 

But anyone taking an existing game code and trying to sell it like its property just by changing title screen (and this is what Dino made exactly like arcade bootleggers) is plain wrong, even worst as a newcomer steal from a known member.

 

It's terrible and it will always be. No matter what words are you using.

 

In fact I find disgusting you're trying to put dirt over DZ-Jay work.

 

You're trying to justify it so hard that looks like you speak for Dino and comrades.

[+Tarzilla]

It's a falacy to use Pac-Man as example. Given a game exists, nothing prevents anyone of creating something similar just by watching it playing.

 

It's part of the learning curve of any programmer and it's not illegal unless you try to sell it as the original Pac-Man.

 

But anyone taking an existing game code and trying to sell it like its property just by changing title screen (and this is what Dino made exactly like arcade bootleggers) is plain wrong, even worst as a newcomer steal from a known member.

 

It's terrible and it will always be. No matter what words are you using.

 

 

Along with the that fact there was appears that no effort into making it a valid version of Gyruss:

No "3 Warps to Uranus", no bonus rounds, no optional use of ECS for better music, etc. basically no attempt to make an actual good home version of Gyruss.

[Rev]

I just want to see if I have all the characters right....

 

Artrag as FLYNN

Dino as DILINGER

DZ must be TRON

 

Here is my problem with the Dino bashing. He has admitted his guilt, he has returned all money collected and has stated he will never sell the games.

Those are pretty big actions. I was raised to forgive. Even if Dino did none of the remorseful steps, I would forgive him. But that is just me.

 

I get Artrag is frustrated and has been wronged. But what ACTUAL harm was done to him? He shared his code freely with the world. I do that all the time too.

If someone uses my ideas or complete code, it is flattering to me. Whenever I come up with a clever method of solving a problem, I like to share it.

 

Monetary Loss? Perhaps. But we are talking pennies. Not a life changing amount. Granted, it is Artrag's money to be made.

 

I just recently had a bomb dropped on me. A vendor who's software my company uses, has an adapter to extract data from an MS Dynamics product we use for data analysis.

It was taking about an hour to extract the data set and putting a heavy load on our servers. I looked at the output before the import. Wrote my own extraction method and test imported it.

It worked perfectly. I then contacted the vendor to have them verify the data set matched under various conditions. It did. My method runs in under 2 minutes vs 60 minutes.

 

They asked, can we use your method? I said certainly.

 

A few months later, they are forcing the purchase of the new adapter for all customers for $4K with annual support of $1.5K This is even for My Company. I wrote the darn thing.

However, we need the analysis part of the software, so we have no choice but to pay. This is some serious cash! I am not pissed about it. I just want my adapter covered! But no.

 

I did not loose anything even if they gained off of my work. Dino should have asked/involved Artrag. I bet he would have dedicated a little more time to the project and he would have a nicely published game now.

But that didn't happen and we cannot change the past. But that doesn't mean you cannot change the future.

 

One last tidbit. I was told something by a friend 35 years ago and it hit home and stuck with me. Forgive for you! It is true. No need to carry any "crap" around. Let it go. Shit, Now Disney will be after me.

 

 

Do they have written documentation or a contract for the use of your program I assume. Edited June 17, 2018 by Rev

[1980gamer]

"It's a falacy to use Pac-Man as example. Given a game exists, nothing prevents anyone of creating something similar just by watching it playing.
It's part of the learning curve of any programmer and it's not illegal unless you try to sell it as the original Pac-Man."

 

Glad your read my post... ( to be clear, that is sarcasm ). No kidding! I said I did this myself with pacman.

 

"But anyone taking an existing game code and trying to sell it like its property just by changing title screen (and this is what Dino made exactly like arcade bootleggers) is plain wrong"

 

Yes, I agree of course. Again, read my posts.

 

", even worst as a newcomer steal from a known member."

Nope, stealing is stealing. Be it from a known member, a stranger or Nintendo. It is all the same. That is one of my issue with this.

 

"In fact I find disgusting you're trying to put dirt over DZ-Jay work."

You missed the point I was trying to make. I have nothing but respect for DZ and his work. I just disagree with the zero tolerance

 

"You're trying to justify it so hard that looks like you speak for Dino and comrades."

No, don't know him. The only Dino I have ever known before this thread was on the Flintstones.

 

But I don't think banning him was right. Don't buy his stuff, don't speak to him, whatever floats your boat.

 

Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; --The Lord's Prayer

 

 

[1980gamer]

Do they have written documentation or a contract for the use of your program I assume.

No, just a phone call. I was just looking to take some server load away and speed up the process for our accounting department.

Which I did.

 

Maybe I was foolish? Water under the bridge.

[Rev]

No, just a phone call. I was just looking to take some server load away and speed up the process for our accounting department.

Which I did.

 

Maybe I was foolish? Water under the bridge.

If its a recent event, they have no legal right to your program.