Consumer CRT or PVM for retro gaming

[shadowman01]

Hello there. I am new in this forum. I am a avid retro gamer and spend quite a lot money to play some of my retro gaming systems Gamecube, N64 and Dreamcast on my modern Flatscreen.

 

But I am also intersted in older Systems that are more made for a CRT . I already got a japanese Sega Saturn and soon I will also get a Atari Jaguar and a 3do. So I need to buy a good consumer CRT or PVM sooner later.

 

The consumer sets are normaly cheaper than the profesional monitors.

 

Is the image Quality of the PVM really that much better than the image quality of a consumer TV set to justify the higher price these monitors are avaiable?

 

Would be pleased heraing some opinions.

[keepdreamin]

When you say you spend "quite a lot money" to play those systems on a modern HDTV, how do you mean? Some of those older systems you're now getting into output RGB (Saturn, Jaguar) and will look outstanding on a modern flatscreen when run through a Framemeister or OSSC. Those devices also have a scanline filter that will give the well defined scanline look that a trinitron PVM will.

 

As for CRTs, I would skip the PVM. The size to price ratio just isn't worth it, IMO. The PVM secret has been out of the bag now, for quite some years. The price of larger ones is at or above upscaler pricing now. Just look on ebay at the prices people are asking for 20" PVMs. You can still get good sized consumer sets for free or next to nothing.

 

If I were to buy a CRT for retro gaming purposes, it would be the following:

 

A late 90's early 2000's Standard Definition Sony Trinitron (not HDTV, or EDTV). 27" or larger. Again, must be an ANALOG standard definition set, this is important for that "CRT look" and light guns to work.

One that has component and s-video inputs. This means you can grab a RGB to component transcoder or the HD RetroVision cables and plug up RGB capable systems to it. Stuff like convergence, and geometry will most likely not be as good as a PVM, but you'll have an outstanding picture and a much larger screen to game on.

 

I suggest watching the following to videos to figure out what you want to do:

 

 

Edited June 9, 2018 by keepdreamin

[youxia]

I agree that PVMs/BVMs are overhyped, the price-to-value ratio is going quite wild these days. I've just been asked to help with importing one: the guy is willing to spend over 2000$ on it. Way over the top. But, if you can find one with reasonable price - I'd say ~150$? by all means get it, or if you have some friends in hospitals/TV stations/etc it's also worth inquiring about. But, because of all the hype and price inflation it's highly unlikely. The IQ is of course better on a pro monitor than consumer set but nowhere near the factor the owners make it out to be. Truth to be told I'd much rather have a bigger decent consumer one even if the price wasn't a factor - size matters.

 

My advice would be to skip OSSC/Frammeisters and similar HDMI solutions for now (unless you already have them of course since it's still possible to find a decent CRT relatively easy. And things will only get downhill and more difficult from now on, as they die out and prices rise (Trinitrons already are fetching $$$ since the word spread) so it's like last call to enjoy this amazing technology. And as impressive as the modern equivalents are technically, they're still siginificantly off the real thing - that's because even the OLED tech can't replicate the CRT look.

 

Trinitrons are definitely worth seeking out, but by no means the only choice - there are awesome sets from Sanyo, JVC, Philips and other decent brands. It all depends on your location, availabilty, price and generally the "trouble factor". Just get one, even if it's a 21" Philips, and then you can keep the tabs on sources and eventually upgrade if something better becames available.

 

Testing personally first is very much advised if possible, even if it's free or cheap, you will avoid the hassle of lugging it around only to discover something's busted. Trust me, been there, done that You can get a RPi with a 240p Test Suite installed for that.

 

I also recommend playing N64/Dreamcast/Cube/PS2 and so on - basically everything under PS3-gen, on a CRT, that's what they were made for. Gamecube Res Evil remake on a 27+ inch RGB set will blow your mind

[keepdreamin]

- that's because even the OLED tech can't replicate the CRT look.

 

What's the "CRT look" though? That could be anything from blurry RF on a consumer set with a shadow mask to razor sharp scanlines of an aperture grille trinitron PVM.

 

To my eyes, the artificial scanlines offered by say the OSSC or Framemeister look essentially the same as the appearance as RGB on a PVM.

 

I'll also disagree with you about the DC and other systems that can do 480P. The dreamcast looks best with VGA, and can look absolutely stunning on modern displays. I run mine at line 2X (960) through the OSSC. I can't imagine going back to a standard definition set for it.

Edited June 9, 2018 by keepdreamin

[youxia]

What's the "CRT look" though?

 

I see where this is going and I really would rather avoid an x-page argument about this. I've been through this before, with people who swear by their modern setups, and it leads nowhere, we will just waste waste time arguing.

 

Suffice to say, that to me, and to my eyes there definitely is such thing as CRT-look. It's got to do with depth, glow, blacks, and overall organic feel that no modern set, including OLEDS was able to replicate. For me It has nothing to do with nostalgia, autheticity or cost - I'm running an RPi after all, not a very nostalgic piece of kit, and spent enough on RGB stuff and TV sets+transport costs to buy an OSSC and to range OLED. But, if I do not have a CRT, I will not emulate because things just look not good enough. Perhaps one day, when OLED (or some new tech) + some shaders will get even better - but not yet.

 

Scanlines on an OSSC may look great but they do so on my laptop too - yet the overall IQ is not good enough for me, simply because the rest of the panel is not able to replicate the, ahem, CRT-look. As a side note it's quite funny how the scanlines themselves became a modern obsession and a holy grail - if you showed them to a kid in the 90s he would laugh at blocky pixels, segmentation and all that. The devs were more than aware of the prevalence of the RF/composite sets in most of households and pulled all kinds of tricks to make the best of it. That's why to me extreme sharpness and RGB often looks unnatural and sort of "naked", especially on modern panels. That depends on a game of course, but is a real factor.

Of course some will argue how this is not true and the devs only catered to the handful of rich folk who had a monitor or an expensive set, but...oh, well

 

Since this is about IQ, I won't also go into the lag issue - but it's impossibvle not to mention when choosing the TV solution.

 

Overall, if you enjoy Dreamcast via VGA, exaggerated/unnatural sharpness and scanlines through OSSC on a modern panel, then that's great - and I mean it - but, I don't. I prefer my old-time CRT-look, no matter how silly it sounds to some. But there really is no point arguing about it. So I will just leave this here for OP to consider. As I said above, this is really the last ticket to the CRT-land: 10-20 years form now it will become a very highly elitist hobby, and 30-40 from now out of reach for most. So why not have fun while it lasts?

Edited June 9, 2018 by youxia

[keepdreamin]

The reason I asked you to define the "CRT look" is because that is incredibly vague and entirely subjective. To me, an OSSC with scanlines basically replicates the RGB PVM look that people pay top dollar for. Using a PVM or good consumer set also throws out all those developer "tricks" as well. That Sonic waterfall thing won't work, Sega Saturn mesh transparencies will be clear as day.

 

I'm also not sure what you mean by scanlines with the Dreamcast? There are no scanlines, unless playing the odd classic game and turning them on? I was using a VGA box when the console was alive on the market with a computer monitor. That look is basically unchanged on my current setup, just on a bigger screen. So there's nothing unnatural about it, considering it's basically the same way I was running the console 18 years ago. How are you running yours, sticking with 480i and a RF modulator?

Edited June 9, 2018 by keepdreamin

[keepdreamin]

Obviously there's differences in color levels, and gamma adjustments on the two displays... But the same style of well defined scanlines is present in both.

 

[shadowman01]

Thanks a lot for the replies.

 

@keepdreamin

Yes sorry I have to be more precise. I tried to make my consoles as HDTV ready as possible. I got a HDMI mod, for the N64 and Gamecube. And for the Dreamcast I got a VGA Box and a VGA HDMI transcoder. Only for the Saturn I was not able to find a decent solution besides the rather expensiv scalers as the Framemeister and the OSC. And they are not worth the money after I have modded some of my consoles for HDMI use already.

 

Besides it is not possible to play Light gun shooter on the LCD, so A consomer TV is a must have sooner or later anyway. Especially after I became intersted in some more older consoles (3do, Jaguar)

 

I will keep looking for a good Sony trinitron as recommended.

Edited June 9, 2018 by shadowman01

[keepdreamin]

Yeah, if you want the light gun games a CRT is a must. The bigger the better.

 

You can get component video from your Saturn using the HD Retrovision Genesis cables + saturn dongle. or grab a RGB to component transcoder for use with all RGB consoles (they'll need their individual scart cables of course) https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-SCART-RGB-to-YUV-Component-Video-Converter-Scaler/221156873851

 

and audio extractor to pull stereo from the scart head. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Scart-to-Audio-Extractor-for-Component-YUV-RGB-Video-Converter-CVS287-CSY-2100/221190880604

[shadowman01]

yes I will try to get at least a .27 set maybe bigger if possible. I have enough space for it so thats no problem.

 

Thanks for the tip concerning the hd retro vision cables for the Saturn. Getting a RGB to component transcoder would be an option too. Although I am not sure if the RGB ouput of the saturn is really that better then the S Video cable I am currently using.

 

I also started a online search for my future crt set. It will be very interesting to find a decent one. Knowing that I should get a late 1990s or early 2000 model makes the search much easier for me.

[Blazing Lazers]

There's a third option that just doesn't get the consideration it should: getting an HD-CRT with HDMI inputs. The very last years of CRT dominance (2004-2006) saw Samsung, Panasonic, Sony, Toshiba, and others release a few fullscreen and widescreen CRT sets that can go all the way up to 1080i/720p with HDMI and Component inputs. Everything from the original Odyssey and Channel F (best via VHS) up to the 360 and PS3 look amazing on them, and they can also at least display the Xbox One and PS4. You have all of the advantages of CRT's, especially deep dark blacks and excellent analog color display. Xbox 360 looks amazing on my HDMI CRT sets, as does my Gamecube and my modded Xbox with component cables. Fullscreen sets also enhance certain games by allowing for more vertical space, such as some shmups and FPS and racing games. DVDs, Blu-Rays, older black and white films and shows, and even Netflix streaming look better on these than on any LCD and most LED panels. Only the newer OLED sets can really surpass them. They are the pinnacle of CRT technology.

 

If you're looking for a non-HD, curved screen CRT, I HIGHLY recommend finding an Insignia branded CRT from 2004-2007. That's the store brand for Best Buy. Just save an Ebay search for "Insignia crt" or the like and you will find a few. Check craigslist often, too. These are surprisingly great sets, and these later model Insignia tube sets are among the only ones to reliably offer quality Component inputs, which are really rarely found on SD sets. Most rarely have many hours on them, as flatscreen LCD sets really took off soon after these. They're also among the newest CRT sets you can get, period.

[derFunkenstein]

If you're going to spend $150 or more to play with RGB cables on a PVM already, you might as well pony up the $50-60 (after shipping) extra bucks and get yourself an OSSC. I mean, this debate is eternal and extremely personal, so there's not really a wrong answer, per se (unless you say to use composite video on an LCD; that's brutal). But in terms of future usefulness, I don't think an OSSC can be understated. They're amazing and forward compatible for many years to come.

 

edit: if you're doing light gun games, I guess there IS a wrong solution, and that's the one I suggested. Whoops.

Edited June 9, 2018 by derFunkenstein

[keepdreamin]

There's a third option that just doesn't get the consideration it should: getting an HD-CRT with HDMI inputs. The very last years of CRT dominance (2004-2006) saw Samsung, Panasonic, Sony, Toshiba, and others release a few fullscreen and widescreen CRT sets that can go all the way up to 1080i/720p with HDMI and Component inputs. Everything from the original Odyssey and Channel F (best via VHS) up to the 360 and PS3 look amazing on them, and they can also at least display the Xbox One and PS4. You have all of the advantages of CRT's, especially deep dark blacks and excellent analog color display. Xbox 360 looks amazing on my HDMI CRT sets, as does my Gamecube and my modded Xbox with component cables. Fullscreen sets also enhance certain games by allowing for more vertical space, such as some shmups and FPS and racing games. DVDs, Blu-Rays, older black and white films and shows, and even Netflix streaming look better on these than on any LCD and most LED panels. Only the newer OLED sets can really surpass them. They are the pinnacle of CRT technology

 

That's totally not an option.

did you miss the part where OP's intent in this thread mentions getting into older consoles and light gun games, specifically?

 

HDTV CRTs are just as useless as modern flat panels in that regard, so why did you just post all that? The fact the end part that sends light to your eyes is a CRT, is irrelevant. They are DIGITAL televisions. Light gun games don't work, and older consoles won't look like they do on standard definition displays.

 

Simply put, HDTVs have no advantages for 90's and earlier retro gaming OR modern HD content. Modern stuff is going to look better on HDR capable displays. A HDTV - CRT is only a decent option for a small window of technology, namely ps2 to wii era gaming (I could debate with you elsewhere that they're not even worth it for that anymore, but that's not what this thread was about). Outside of that, you still have all the disadvantages of a CRT. Limited screen size, geometry, tremendously cumbersome to deal with etc..

 

Consumer HDTV crts were also only capable of a progressive 480 resolution, all HD content including 720P was finally displayed at 1080i. So you're not getting 60 frames per second at 720P, you're really getting 1080i at 60 fields per second. You'll get full 720 60 progressive frames on modern flat panels.

Edited June 9, 2018 by keepdreamin

[keepdreamin]

 

I also started a online search for my future crt set. It will be very interesting to find a decent one. Knowing that I should get a late 1990s or early 2000 model makes the search much easier for me.

 

Something to look out for on those later analog sets is something called scan velocity modulation, this might be harder to research as manufacturers probably had their own buzzword for it. I would try and avoid any set that has it, or at least won't let you turn it off. I know the last SD Toshibas in the 2000's had this as a locked feature. Basically it was a way to produce false sharpness, and really does not look good. Objects have harsh false borders, maybe even with a bit of a whitish outline. I liken it to the annoying modern features you turn off on modern sets, imagine buying a new 4K tv without being able to turn off edge enhancement or motion smoothing.

Edited June 9, 2018 by keepdreamin

[juansolo]

Personally, if you can bag a PVM for less than £100 (approx $150) then they are really good. I wouldn't spend any more however. There are just too many quality domestic sets out there for very little, many being given away. To the point you can build up a mini stash of the things for next to nothing if you keep your eye out, and it is just a case of being patient and scouring the free ads and eBay. FWIW, over the last year or so I've bagged 2 domestic Trinitrons (20" and 14") for £10, a 19" LaCie VGA monitor for the Dreamcast (high end thing) for £10, A 20" BVM, PVM and a 13" PVM for nothing (yes really), a 25" Mistubishi for nothing, a Taxan 19" VGA monitor for nothing, a Commodore 1702 for another £10, and a Commodore 1085S for £50. Despite all those I still keep my eye out, because once these have all gone, that's it. So any I can prevent from being binned I'm more than happy to stash them as spares.

Edited June 9, 2018 by juansolo

[keepdreamin]

Personally, if you can bag a PVM for less than £100 (approx $150) then they are really good. I wouldn't spend any more however. There are just too many quality domestic sets out there for very little, many being given away. To the point you can build up a mini stash of the things for next to nothing if you keep your eye out, and it is just a case of being patient and scouring the free ads and eBay. FWIW, over the last year or so I've bagged 2 domestic Trinitrons (20" and 14") for £10, a 19" LaCie VGA monitor for the Dreamcast (high end thing) for £10, A 20" BVM, PVM and a 13" PVM for nothing (yes really), a 25" Mistubishi for nothing, a Taxan 19" VGA monitor for nothing, a Commodore 1702 for another £10, and a Commodore 1085S for £50. Despite all those I still keep my eye out, because once these have all gone, that's it. So any I can prevent from being binned I'm more than happy to stash them as spares.

 

Where's a good place to purchase a used CONEX box?

[juansolo]

Storage is definitely becoming an issue I essentially have given the BVM and the little PVM to a friend and fellow retro enthusiast and my two domestic Trini's are thrown up in his loft because I can't fit them in mine.

[youxia]

The reason I asked you to define the "CRT look" is because that is incredibly vague and entirely subjective. To me, an OSSC with scanlines basically replicates the RGB PVM look that people pay top dollar for. Using a PVM or good consumer set also throws out all those developer "tricks" as well. That Sonic waterfall thing won't work, Sega Saturn mesh transparencies will be clear as day.

 

I'm also not sure what you mean by scanlines with the Dreamcast? There are no scanlines, unless playing the odd classic game and turning them on? I was using a VGA box when the console was alive on the market with a computer monitor. That look is basically unchanged on my current setup, just on a bigger screen. So there's nothing unnatural about it, considering it's basically the same way I was running the console 18 years ago. How are you running yours, sticking with 480i and a RF modulator?

 

The "CRT look" is perhaps hard to define but in no way subjective. The reality is, we are talking about two vastly different technologies which produce two completely different outputs. If you put them side by side differences will be there and this is a fact, not someting "in the mind". What is subjective though is which one looks "better" or "good enough" or if it "replicates" the other. I mean, you already believe that a CRT monitor look is "unchanged" on your modern TV. If a person makes these calls - well, to each its own.

 

And this strange fixation on scanlines - which are only one element building the image - is quite fascinating. Yes, they're great! But, as I already said they're also great on my laptop, but my laptop does not have a CRT display sporting a CRT-look , so it does not matter. OSSC is a great machine, but it will not reproduce all the other elements - blacks/colours/glow/etc. But again - to you it looks the same as the modern output, so...

 

Do you see now why I said these debates are completely pointless? We may as well be talking about smells vs sounds.

 

I did not mention scanlines in connection to the Dreamcast, it was after the comma. To be clear, I don't mind using the VGA box per se, as long as it's connected to a CRT monitor. But 480i is fine too. Hell, it worked well for thousands back in the day, though I guess we were just a bunch of silly peasants.

 

As for that tired waterfall thing, well, it really is just one particular example. If you've actually read the whole context of my paragraph, you'd see me saying how it depends on a game and how sometimes I'm not a fan of RGB, and how perhaps "all kinds of tricks" could also mean much more than just one or two popular examples (perhaps how they used dithering in majority of microcomputer games and so on).

 

Well, there you go. I thought my first post was fairly neutral, since as I said I'm really, really tired of these arguments. Alas...no rest for the wicked, eh? This is the reason why I don't frequent anymore the usual haunts such as system11 or #upvotemypvm #crtgaming - the overarching narratives have become quite insufferable there, and also very limiting. Especially to people who perhaps would just like to try that CRT lark, dip a toe maybe, but are instead told they need to embark on an epic quest to find some esoteric hardware, everything else is just such a no-no.

 

Funnily enough, I recently had to move overseas and got rid of everything but the RPi. I knew my Euro RGB hat would not work with NTSC so I thought I will give it a rest for a while, but then bought a composite cable on a whim. I mean COMP$HITE 11!1, sorry. Never thought I would actually use it, because as we all know it gives you eye cancer and so on.

 

But then I did, and in the process became a much happier gamer. Before, with my 27" RGB Trinitron, I think I actually spent most of my time poring over the glorious pixels, adjusting countless settings and taking photos - instead of actually gaming.

Now, I have some TV called "Monix" and just play games. They look fine too, not as good as RGB, but fine all the same. Especially when you actually play and not have your nose 5 inches from the telly. Sure, I will upgrade again, but for now I'm quite happy with this underdog setup.

 

Hey, perhaps, it is all in the mind, eh?

 

I'll leave you with this personal anecdote. I think it's safe to say I'm done with this subject for a while (perhaps ever)

[keepdreamin]

I played DC on a high resolution CRT computer monitor. That look to me is basically unchanged on a modern flat panel, despite the huge differences in tech.

 

(I apologize if you're currently responding to my initial version of this post)

Edited June 9, 2018 by keepdreamin

[F34R]

I love my PVM playing. No doubt. The 20" and 19" pair I have, look brilliant. I also have a 27" Sony FV310 (consumer crt). I can definitely tell the difference, the PVM being better defined, but the 27" is a blast to play on due to the size. If you can get a decent consumer CRT, you won't be disappointed, and it's not going to be a price-to-quality loss. If you live in or near South Carolina, I have a spare Sony KV-27FS100 you can use.

[Austin]

*Skipping the previous posts*

 

The PVM is going to give you the best picture quality. However, a lot can be said for size, and larger PVMs are really expensive. If you plan on gaming fairly casually and don't mind composite or s-video, get the biggest consumer set you can of the flat screen type (later Philips, Panasonic or Sony models). They will provide the clearest images that you can get from consumer equipment and are generally cheap (and sometimes free).

[shadowman01]

thanks a lot for the further replies. @Austin I did some more research and it really seems that the PVM give the best image quality but they big ones are rather rare and also quite expensive. It seems that for light gun shooters a bigger screen is better to give the best gaming experience. A big set is also nice to play some early action adventures. I forgot to mention that I have got a PSOne too in the original post I want to use too on my new CRT set. Playing the old Resident Resident Evil Games and Dino Crisis on a a CRT should look nice.

 

I do not mind using composite and S Video. Composite is the signal type I grew up with. was using it with my consoles till the first HDMI Consoles came up. Always looked nice. But I won't bother to upgrade my consoles with S Video if it is feasible for CRT usage.

 

On modern panels LCD Panels S video looks really good.

[Austin]

Yeah, don't get me wrong--PVMs are amazing. I have one. However, it's only 14 inches and it's not ideal for casual gaming. I mainly use it in my recording/streaming chain. When I want to kick back and relax, I use my 2002 consumer Trinitron via s-video or composite and it's great. 25 inches, not the biggest I'd like, but I can sit six feet back comfortably, whereas with my PVM I have to be about two feet away from it for comfortable viewing. Also, the larger sets are better for lightgun gaming. That extra space is *very* welcome for that genre. Anyway, if you happen to nab a PVM at a steal, go for it, you won't regret it. Chances are these days though those good deals on PVMs are rare.

[BydoEmpire]

Pick one off the curb of, if you can still find it, get one cheap from goodwill or a flea market. You should be able to get a fine CRT for almost or literally nothing. I wouldn't go bigger than 27", it makes it hard to keep the whole screen in your visual field if you're seating reasonably close. I like 24" myself.

[keepdreamin]

I wouldn't go bigger than 27", it makes it hard to keep the whole screen in your visual field if you're seating reasonably close.

 

 

Seriously? How close are you sitting to your TV, with your nose to the glass?

 

 

That actually sounds like you're sitting unreasonably close. 27" is not a big screen at all. I've got a 24" CRT for occasional light gun games and I'd have to get my nose within a foot of the screen before it started to surpass my visual field. Sitting 4+ feet back from a 27" + screen is not going to exceed your visual field. Even the biggest CRT made at 40", wouldn't be a problem at all unless you were trying to crawl through the screen like a stargate.

 

I'm sitting about 6 feet away from a screen that's the equivalent of a 55" 4:3 screen. No issues with losing track of stuff on screen and well within my visual field.

Edited June 10, 2018 by keepdreamin