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Intellivision Entertainment : cartridge support?


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Poll: Cartridge support (46 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you want the new console to support cartridges for old/new games?

  1. Yes, built in the console (21 votes [45.65%])

    Percentage of vote: 45.65%

  2. No, I do not care at all (7 votes [15.22%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.22%

  3. I would like an external adaptor sold separately (18 votes [39.13%])

    Percentage of vote: 39.13%

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#1 vprette OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jul 7, 2018 4:31 AM

Since this point is debated in the intellivision entertainment console thread, and I'm personally interested in the item (I vote for producing an additional adaptor) I guess is worth picturing out what is the opinion of the intellivisionnaires here :-)

 



#2 1980gamer OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jul 7, 2018 7:51 AM

I think it can only be built in....

 

I don't care if it is an add-on.  However, an add-on would imply a cart-dumping tool.

I would say at that point, any DRM added carts will not work.  So what would be the point?  We have the ability to buy almost every other ROM already.

 

And this is why we LOVE DRM for a 40 year old console!



#3 DZ-Jay OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jul 7, 2018 8:49 AM

I think it can only be built in....

 

I don't care if it is an add-on.  However, an add-on would imply a cart-dumping tool.

I would say at that point, any DRM added carts will not work.  So what would be the point?  We have the ability to buy almost every other ROM already.

 

And this is why we LOVE DRM for a 40 year old console!

 

Why do you say that "an add-on would imply a cart-dumping tool"?  Why would the implementation between a built-in cartridge port and one exposed by an add-on be different?



#4 MrBeefy OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jul 7, 2018 9:18 AM

I voted no, but if its an expansion sold separately I would be fine with that.

I think adding price to a console that is already going to have a hard time making headway is a bad idea. I really do not think that putting it in the system necessarily mean that it won't be a dumper either way.

Also this isn't a Flashback. This is a mew system that will have its own virtual console. People do not widely remember INTV from the day so why focus on moving backwards? Move forward and they are already saying that they will sell the games cheap and that you will own them on the console.

Since I grew up with the NES this would be like me saying I do not want to buy a Nintendo Switch because I can't shove my NES carts in it. Or my SNES, N64, Gamecube, Wii, or WiiU for that matter.

Virtual console good. An expensive legacy inspired console that doesn't have the Atari name recognition is going to be harder to get in homes of the average household that isn't an INTV freak. This system will need more than this community to be a success and if you want it to be updated and supported they need it in households buying their cheap games.

On a side note I live in a city that not even the retro game store carries Atari games. I asked if that was going to change once they got the Retron 77 in amd they said, "No." Not everyone has those games available at hand. Adding the cart will probably scare some people away that are a little more casual because, "Why buy a system I can't find games for?"

Edited by MrBeefy, Sat Jul 7, 2018 9:20 AM.


#5 CharonPDX OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jul 7, 2018 10:23 AM

What DRM?

The only "DRM-like" feature I know of on the Intellivision is the Intellivision 2 console's check for a valid-looking copyright date in the copyright field in the cartridge ROM.  (Because at the time, only Mattel was using that field, so it blocked out third-party cartridges. Third parties super-quickly figured it out, though.)  There's no security chip like the NES' "10NES/CIC" chip.



#6 1980gamer OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jul 7, 2018 10:43 AM

 

Why do you say that "an add-on would imply a cart-dumping tool"?  Why would the implementation between a built-in cartridge port and one exposed by an add-on be different?

If it is a USB connection,  I would think it would simply dump the rom to a temp file location.  But being usb, I could connect it to a PC and us it to read the same rom.

I would bet the Carts with DRM will not work in this case.

 

However,  If the cart port is built in and have a NON standard connection,  IE may be able to work with content providers that use DRM on cart.???  Maybe.  Still not certain IMHO.

Also, the cart connect can not be used to DUMP the rom to a file location, it would have to read the cart itself to have any chance.   Also,  Any special hardware on cart would then be in play.

 

Yes, special hardware can be emulated, but you would not have too.

 

I don't ROM hunt.  So I don't know if the DRM carts have been dumped?  I simply buy what is available.  Glad that trend has increased. 



#7 Lathe26 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jul 7, 2018 11:39 AM

Just to add to what 1980gamer said, the problem is that USB is great for transferring blocks of data, it is terrible for fast random access (devices are polled about 8000/sec).  Using a USB cartridge port in this manner would result in the emulator running 10-100 times slower than a real emulator would.  This why a USB-based cartridge port will likely only be for dumping, not live execution of the cartridges hardware (RAM/ROM/registers/etc).



#8 DZ-Jay OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jul 7, 2018 1:14 PM

If it is a USB connection,  I would think it would simply dump the rom to a temp file location.  But being usb, I could connect it to a PC and us it to read the same rom.

I would bet the Carts with DRM will not work in this case.

 

However,  If the cart port is built in and have a NON standard connection,  IE may be able to work with content providers that use DRM on cart.???  Maybe.  Still not certain IMHO.

Also, the cart connect can not be used to DUMP the rom to a file location, it would have to read the cart itself to have any chance.   Also,  Any special hardware on cart would then be in play.

 

Yes, special hardware can be emulated, but you would not have too.

 

I don't ROM hunt.  So I don't know if the DRM carts have been dumped?  I simply buy what is available.  Glad that trend has increased. 

 

I guess I do not see why a built-in port would use a non-standard connection while a plug-in adaptor would use USB...  Both could be USB and both could be non-standard.  My impression is that both could be implemented identically, except that one has a removable interface.

 

    -dZ.



#9 Lathe26 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jul 7, 2018 2:28 PM

 
I guess I do not see why a built-in port would use a non-standard connection while a plug-in adaptor would use USB...  Both could be USB and both could be non-standard.  My impression is that both could be implemented identically, except that one has a removable interface.
 
    -dZ.


When he said non-standard connection, it looks like he meant non-USB. Thus a cartridge port can not be implemented as USB and non-USB at the same time (whether internal or external).

The advantage of going with non-USB is that it would be possible to read/write the cartridge in real time (something that can't be done over USB). Of course, the emulator would have to be modified to talk to such hardware but typically software is more malleable than hardware.

While a built-in cartridge port _could_ use USB for the internal communication, such a solution offers little to no advantage over an external add-on.

#10 fdr4prez OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jul 7, 2018 3:42 PM

If there is a cartridge port (whether built-in or add-on), then is it safe to assume that all the existing peripherals (Intellivoice, ECS and System Changer) will also work? 

 

If the cartridge port is developed as an external add-on, then can there be other add-ons that can be developed to use the same connection?  Such as a Coleco System Changer, or some other nifty peripheral that my poor imagination can't imagine?


Edited by fdr4prez, Sat Jul 7, 2018 3:44 PM.


#11 intvsteve ONLINE  

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Posted Sat Jul 7, 2018 4:40 PM

I don't think something like the original System Changer could ever be expected to work, since it was really a full-on Atari that got power from the Master Component and provided the RF output itself. At that point, you've effectively have a cheap old analog TV USB stick.



#12 Lathe26 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jul 7, 2018 4:56 PM

If there is a cartridge port (whether built-in or add-on), then is it safe to assume that all the existing peripherals (Intellivoice, ECS and System Changer) will also work? 

 

If the cartridge port is developed as an external add-on, then can there be other add-ons that can be developed to use the same connection?  Such as a Coleco System Changer, or some other nifty peripheral that my poor imagination can't imagine?

 

If the cartridge port is based on USB, then no.  Such a reader will only be capable of dumping the ROM out of a cartridge, not interact with it live (what would be required for the Intellivoice, ECS, or System Changer to work).



#13 mr_me OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jul 7, 2018 5:12 PM

It would be safe to assume that built-in or external, usb or non-standard, that the cartridge port will be based on cartridge dumping (unless we hear otherwise). I have yet to see any software emulator for any system that interacts with the cartridge directly.

Edited by mr_me, Sat Jul 7, 2018 5:15 PM.


#14 vprette OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jul 7, 2018 6:05 PM

I did not expect so many people asking for the built in solution...



#15 Black_Tiger OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jul 7, 2018 8:32 PM

If it's not using real hardware to run the game, then a cart port is of no interest to me.

I feel the opposite about the reverse though. Using flashcarts or a real hardware solution to directly load roms is fine by me.

#16 Lathe26 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jul 7, 2018 8:47 PM

I did not expect so many people asking for the built in solution...

 

Myself, I don't feel the need for a built-in solution.  An add-on would be nice but isn't a requirement for me.  My main concern is that if it is USB-based (whether built-in or external), that some folks here will be surprised and upset that some carts (ex: LTO FLASH) and external hardware (ex: Intellivoice, ECS) won't work.



#17 swlovinist OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jul 8, 2018 9:05 AM

I would prefer the unit take original carts, but will support this being made either way.  



#18 First Spear OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:44 PM

It's safe to guess that current license holders of games like Tron Solar Sailer and Burgertime and Lock-n-Chase and White Water will not allow inclusion on the next-gen console without a huge fee, which would drive the console cost up. Games like Hockey, etc will already be baked into the console. Having a full cartridge port just sounds expensive and will be nice for maybe 2% of the system buyers.

 

So that means an add-on would be needed for the console.... Really. If I want to play Beauty and the Beast now, I use my LTO Flash (all of my original carts are stored away except for Boulderdash and a few others). If I want to play distributed ROMs like Christmas Carol or Jawcrusher, I use my LTO Flash. 

 

I would like to see an add-on that allows cartridges to plug-in and loads the games into an emulator; even the slowest IO method is 100k per second, that means most Intellivision games load in less than one second.

 

I would imagine that any game requiring voice could get it through software emulation of the SP0256-012 orator chip, just as jzIntv does now. Same for the ECS.

 

 

The Apple IIGS is not an Apple II like its predecessors, it's a custom 16-bit computer with an entire IIe on a chip (https://en.wikipedia.../wiki/Mega_II); hardware and software acts like a IIGS or a IIe based on softswitches. I could imagine that the new Intellivision would behave in the same way - make something completely new that contains a miniaturized version of the old stuff, and flip back and forth as needed. Emulation.



#19 mr_me OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:03 PM

I don't think licensing the old data east games will require huge fees. Imagic will be interesting as we haven't seen any Imagic licensing for a while. In all cases I don't think licensed games would be included out of the box but will likely be extra.

#20 MrBeefy OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:28 PM

I would hope they wouldn't do it for a high price.

Edited by MrBeefy, Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:25 PM.


#21 intvsteve ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:54 PM

A

 

B?



#22 MrBeefy OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:27 PM

 
B?


Not sure what happened there. Was looking at the thread right b4 I went in to my wife's ultrasound. I added a comment lol.

I wonder how many would be open to licensing their old games for cheap.

#23 carlsson OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:31 PM

-"Is it a boy? Is it a girl?"

-"No, it is an Intellivision!"



#24 mr_me OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:08 PM

I would hope they wouldn't do it for a high price.

New games are expected to be between $3 and $7. Old games are expected to be less than that.

Edited by mr_me, Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:08 PM.


#25 MrBeefy OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:44 PM

New games are expected to be between $3 and $7. Old games are expected to be less than that.


I was thinking the licensing fee. The price point for the games they are listing I am digging.




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