mmbe Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 His post (#39) in this closed topic seems to suggest a challenge. http://atariage.com/forums/topic/280535-jaguar-needs-more-3d-games/page-2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 The Fuck ? I didn't drop anything and am working on gameplay and/or related engine updates. I'm just busy working on physics (I thought 2 pages about that in my thread last week would make that obvious) and some related 68000 code rearchitecture (just updated collision detection with lasershots to be more precise and tested on multiple enemies and multiple concurrent lasershots) pertaining to Z-correct order. Not gonna spam my own thread with code changes that don't result in very visible progress. This coming weekend I want to introduce variability to the AI and enemies behavior. 1-2 more weeks and should have a new vid up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 I think he meant "drop a challenge" as "unexpectedly announce a challenge". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 Ok, just googled the phrase - it does indeed mean the opposite of its direct translation, that I had thought it meant... to be fair, there are phrases in my native 3 languages that escape me to this day, so this one doesn't bother me too much I'm glad it wasn't just another attack at my progress, though! So, 150 carts of something like REZ - doable or absurd? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stage_1_Boss Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 REZ is a great game, so if there was a release like that, I'd be on board for sure. One thing I'd love to see make it's way to Jaguar though is a homebrew or port of a turn-based RPG or another Action RPG, I know that style of game requires a lot more than arcade style games though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 REZ is a great game, so if there was a release like that, I'd be on board for sure. One thing I'd love to see make it's way to Jaguar though is a homebrew or port of a turn-based RPG or another Action RPG, I know that style of game requires a lot more than arcade style games though. Rez has quite complex multi-phase monster battles, and is actually more complex (implementation-wise) to a turn-based action game, like Incubation (though, the Incubation requires a lot of level editing - but that's easier than coding and you can subcontract it - I would just give the guy my PC level editor and all game design would happen on PC): Something like Incubation could raise the 3D scene complexity, quite literally, by an order of magnitude, as you don't need anywhere near 60 fps for that (unlike racing games, where framerate is the only thing that matters). You could get away with 6 fps for 3d scene (though keep 60 fps for input, thanks to jag's unique architecture), so it could actually really look beyond what PS1 games used to. Probably even better example is Space Hulk on PS4: https://youtu.be/Wr8qt-l0U20?t=38 - Top-Down view - Extremely simple geometry of the level (like, 2 triangles per square) - the only major polygons are used for the characters - we could have CRY mode for nice shading - just compute lightmaps at level load-time - I would love to see how this would look textured and lightmapped at 768x200 - this would be waaaay beyond PS1 level You know, since all the textures and lightmaps would be computed at load-time, you can apply all kinds of filtering and postprocessing shaders on them, making them look even smoother in that high res, so that once Blitter starts blitting the scanlines, it blits the highest possible quality. I actually implemented the Incubation's turn-based gameplay and initial AI, about 10 years ago, on PC. I still have that C++ code on my drive (I'd just copy paste it to jag, really - as the 68000 wouldn't have to run at 60 fps anyway), we could totally just use the level editor I built for all my PC games (at the time) - I would only build export to the jaguar's *.s format, really (which I already partially have, for 3D meshes anyway). However, the Incubation, as far as I remember, almost nobody played. It was largely ignored in PC circles. Not many people play turn-based games. Not sure, but I doubt this would do 100 units on jag... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gummy Bear Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 Oh man.. You mentioning Space Hulk made me remember an amazing game for PS1 and Saturn: Space Hulk - Vengeance of the Blood Angels. I bet the Jag could run that Get porting, Vlad! My money is waiting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swansea_Mariner Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 There is no doubt in my mind something in the same ilk of Rez would do 150 units. That's the first time I've seen space hulk may have to get a copy of that looks right up my street. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 That particular Space Hulk is from a first-person perspective. So, it would be basically almost a carbon copy of jag's AVP, visually... Besides, that's a completely different type of 3D engine (it's a raycaster, so not really a 3D engine, even), so that's not really an option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stage_1_Boss Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 Sorry, what I meant is just overall game design with RPGs requiring more than Arcade style games. Usually it's assumed the games will be much longer as RPGs, (usually) lots of dialogue, making sure things don't bug out along the stretch and lots of designs. I'm sure it's gotta be more of a pain to polish an RPG style game and make sure everything works well than a high score style game. Please note, I love both kinds of games and I've not made either, so this is just me making an ass out of myself and throwing out an assumption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 (edited) Ouch, you mean that kind of RPG - lots of dialogs, characters, environments. Yes, you're totally right in your assumption - it's much more of a pain to create, let alone polish such huge RPG. Even in C, that would be huge undertaking, let alone assembler. Then again, no need for performance in such game, so a C is very much useable, unlike highperformance racing game... And no, 150 copies wouldn't really finance a significant portion of such development... Edited July 13, 2018 by VladR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 And no, 150 copies wouldn't really finance a significant portion of such development... Indigogo, worked for Atari SA...... 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 Get porting, Vlad! My money is waiting! Oh, no - that's not how that would work. I may be crazy to take a break from corporate world, to work on jag games fulltime, for a year (or as long as I can survive from them), but I'm not that crazy to just blindly work on random game and only after it's done to hope that it sells The idea is, that once (and this is still few months away, assuming no major issues and/or life/job): - at least 2-3 levels are fully playable (meaning import/export tools are fully proven and broken in) - the engine and all interface/gameplay/AI features are working stable - it's at the point of mere art/level design (no more significant coding effort needed, just polishing) - my cart-manufacturing bench is proven and I know I can by myself manufacture all the carts and not depend on anybody else At that point, we would pick 3-4 game candidates that: - would work with the current state of the engine (so, no FPS games) - have very roughly comparable efforts of finishing (a sum of both coding work and 3D modelling work) - of course, it won't be identical between different games - but roughly 3-4 months of fulltime work per game (cart production/shipping will take a lot of additional time too!) - everybody would assign points to each game, as a 1st choice, 2nd choice, 3rd choice, ... - example: StunRunner vs StarFox vs PolePosition vs Road Rash Then, and only then (hypothetically : soonest is September this year, assuming all above points are met), the preorders/kickstart could start. If, say, 100 orders are made (100 for StunRunner, if it was massive RPG, then no - 100 wouldn't work - but I wouldn't go for massive RPG anyway), then I can see that this is a good choice of the game. If only 20 preorders are made, then it's obvious it doesn't make sense to work on that game (and I'd return the preorders that were processed - or if it was kickstarter, it's automatic anyway). Of course, whoever would take a risk in such preorder, would have to be somehow compensated accordingly. Things that currently come to mind (and this is totally for debate) are: - lower price - special welcome screen, since I would be burning the EPROMs, hence can make different builds easily - exclusive simple 8-bit style mini-game (but using my 3D engine), which wouldn't be present on the production carts after the preorder campaign ends From income standpoint, I would be obviously taking an insane paycut (just google C++ salaries in NY), no retirement funding, no health insurance, no vacation, etc. There's also considerable risk that my career would be severely impacted, but I strongly believe that I can find another job even after a year break, given the caliber of companies I worked for in last decade. But I would be fulltime coding what I love most and bring 3D games that are missing on the platform. Food for thought... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gummy Bear Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 I reckon Vengeance of the Blood Angels would be a massive seller. You're missing out there, chief Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 Perhaps, but it would also mean I would literally just throw away all the engine work I did so far. Besides, jag has plenty good FPS games already. Could I make a competent raycaster in a month or two given my current jag experience ? Sure, but those games would hardly bring anything new to the platform. I am however all for the previously mentioned PS4's - style - Space Hulk, even though that would mean animated 3D characters (which I don't yet have), which would certainly add at least a month or two to dev. I can totally reuse my grid-based level editor from decade ago. Of course, it goes without saying, in either case, there's no licensing involved - we can merely talk about game type / genre, not actual licensed universe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmbe Posted July 13, 2018 Author Share Posted July 13, 2018 Ok, just googled the phrase - it does indeed mean the opposite of its direct translation, that I had thought it meant... to be fair, there are phrases in my native 3 languages that escape me to this day, so this one doesn't bother me too much I'm glad it wasn't just another attack at my progress, though! So, 150 carts of something like REZ - doable or absurd? VladR, Sorry for the confusion. Let me state that the purpose of my original post was only to confirm what you had said in the a previous topic. It was in no way intended to be seen as an attack on your progress. I wish you well with your project and look forward to seeing your results. I think you would not have a problem reaching sales of 150 carts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapicco Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 I Ill buy two copies of each cart if that helps Regarding spade hulk, I could never seem to survive more that 5 minutes in the 3do version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredifredo Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 https://osgameclones.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+madman Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 VladR drops a lot of things on here. If you dry them out they can be used as fertilizer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 VladR drops a lot of things on here. If you dry them out they can be used as fertilizer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LianneJaguar64 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Oh man.. You mentioning Space Hulk made me remember an amazing game for PS1 and Saturn: Space Hulk - Vengeance of the Blood Angels. I bet the Jag could run that Get porting, Vlad! My money is waiting! This was an updated version of Space Hulk for DOS and Amiga, the Amiga of course using a 68k processor... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAVE 1 GAMES Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Ok, just googled the phrase - it does indeed mean the opposite of its direct translation, that I had thought it meant... to be fair, there are phrases in my native 3 languages that escape me to this day, so this one doesn't bother me too much I'm glad it wasn't just another attack at my progress, though! So, 150 carts of something like REZ - doable or absurd? Lol. VladR 150 carts for your amazing 3D game is totally doable. I have sold well over 200 copies of Fast Food 64 now, and it is simple game that gets pooped on all the time around these parts. Your work is amazing and I would buy 2 copies of a finished 3d game of yours. Rez was also a very AWESOME game and there needs to be something else out there like it. (I have it on 360) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Lol. VladR 150 carts for your amazing 3D game is totally doable. I have sold well over 200 copies of Fast Food 64 now, and it is simple game that gets pooped on all the time around these parts. Your work is amazing and I would buy 2 copies of a finished 3d game of yours. Rez was also a very AWESOME game and there needs to be something else out there like it. (I have it on 360) Did you say, two HUNDRED ? Really ?!? Although, it's a famous name - I didn't previously know that Fast Food goes as far back as 2600-era. You know, here in Montana, if I did 3 games a year, and each did 200 copies, I could totally survive here on that, and do what I love coding the most... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 I Ill buy two copies of each cart if that helps Regarding spade hulk, I could never seem to survive more that 5 minutes in the 3do version. Yeah, same here. I much prefer the explicit turn-based top-down view, which doesn't force you to just charge forward. Like in Incubation or later SpaceHulk games. This was an updated version of Space Hulk for DOS and Amiga, the Amiga of course using a 68k processor... I played the DOS version a lot, but the basic game design was terrible - FPS view into what is essentially a turn-based mechanics. It was very confusing, you always wanted to instinctively charge forward as in Doom, but that's not at all as the game played. It's like eating Strawberries with Onions. Sure you could theoretically do that, but I'd argue if it's a good recipe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gummy Bear Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Oh it's definitely a good recipe. You just weren't very good at it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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