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What was the Jaguar truly capable of?


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#226 Clint Thompson OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:23 PM

 

I would love to make something like that for the Jag CD where I believe it's possible to have an KI style game with an FMV background and maybe a limited/modest level of real-time 3D in the background. If Sega CD can do, so can the Jaguar; makes sense to me. That's just one thing on the table that's very much possible the Jag can potentially pull off.

 

The plain and simple reality is that it's not going to happen and for multiple reasons. This is why people are getting bent out of shape.

 

I don't know if you've ever tried making a Jag CD program but can rest assured it's an absolute nightmare to do anything on the Jaguar CD. The main reason being is it's not your typical ISO format and is simply an audio cd player hinged to the Jaguar that created a very deep rooted problem from the onset and is also one of the reasons it was so cheap. It's amazing there are as many Jaguar CD games as there are to be honest and there's a reason the CoJag was made for the arcades to run Area 51 with FMV - 4MB+ of RAM being one of them, a custom created controller to stream said FMV from a far much faster medium (HDD) over CD, etc. etc.

 

I like to dream as much as the next person but once you really get into it, you very quickly realize why a lot of things never saw the light of day on the Jaguar. For some people, it's better not to know and continue to live the dream and the possibility that it could have happened.



#227 WAVE 1 GAMES OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:27 PM

I would argue that you made the same judgements on Vladr and his 3D 60 fps demo that he didnt know what he was doing and was "all talk" as well. I have that binary and it looks fantastic and I posted video of it running on MY skunk.

I wonder why he hasnt released a game yet? SURELY it would be welcomed with open arms... Right? .... RIGHT? Lol

Instead of passing judgement on Phillip why not encourage him to do a proof of concept? Then whatever sacred nuggets of knowledge you think you are holding on to he can learn for himself, and then we finally will OTHER people learning and producing content for the jag.

#228 Flojomojo OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:32 PM

I should probably not get involved, but .... why Atari Jaguar? Why THAT particular shitty old console? Why not make a game in Unity or something first, just to show you can design and bring something together? Why would it "need" to be on the Jaguar? What's so interesting about it, apart from branding and failure?



#229 Zerosquare ONLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:38 PM

Instead of passing judgement on Phillip why not encourage him to do a proof of concept?

You mean, like this?

Start small. Experiment. Release things. Listen to feedback. Improve. Repeat.


Then whatever sacred nuggets of knowledge you think you are holding on

You mean the stuff I've publicly released for free, and that is included in rB+, the framework your games rely on?

then we finally will OTHER people learning and producing content for the jag.

I guess all the people who've released homebrews using rB+ don't exist, then.

#230 WAVE 1 GAMES OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:40 PM

I should probably not get involved, but .... why Atari Jaguar? Why THAT particular shitty old console? Why not make a game in Unity or something first, just to show you can design and bring something together? Why would it "need" to be on the Jaguar? What's so interesting about it, apart from branding and failure?


Thats actually a great suggestion. Create something in a more user friendly development environment FIRST. Then if you really want to bring it over to the Jag you have something to show and you can start trying to figure out how to do it. That would be something I would imagine EVERYONE here would be willing to help with.

#231 WAVE 1 GAMES OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:42 PM

You mean, like this?You mean the stuff I've publicly released for free, and that is included in rB+, the framework your games rely on?I guess all the people who've released homebrews using rB+ don't exist, then.


All fair points

#232 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:58 PM

My bloody job cost me aspects of my health.

Serious back injury and loss of upper range of my hearing (high frequency range) and has resulted in permanent tinnitus. |-O

Edited by Lost Dragon, Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:07 PM.


#233 Gummy Bear OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:01 PM

Round and round we go!

WHEEEE!

#234 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:03 PM

I should probably not get involved, but .... why Atari Jaguar? Why THAT particular shitty old console? Why not make a game in Unity or something first, just to show you can design and bring something together? Why would it "need" to be on the Jaguar? What's so interesting about it, apart from branding and failure?


Put it out on Dreamcast with possibility of a Jaguar version if there's enough demand and it wouldn't be comprised too much sounds like a sensible plan.

The DC community seems a little better...ventilated shall we say?

The brand loyalty associated with the Jaguar can be a most curious thing at times.

#235 philipj OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:07 PM

Thats actually a great suggestion. Create something in a more user friendly development environment FIRST. Then if you really want to bring it over to the Jag you have something to show and you can start trying to figure out how to do it. That would be something I would imagine EVERYONE here would be willing to help with.

 

Actually I am learning to program on the PC first using QB64 just to get a basic understanding on programming in general before I get off into tackling the Jaguar... I certainly don't won't the thread to spiral out of control, but it's every post, I get some measure heckling from someone and although Zerosquare has given me sound advise, it was not without some measure of attitude behind it... If some one did him the same way, he would probably do what he's doing now by browbeating the members here. But I do agree with him games never being released for the Jag by dreamers and that has been the problem and you can since my doubling down tone, that's because the thread looks like it's getting a little heated, which is not what I want here.

 

And Clint Thomas I hear you man and I do listen to the experts here and in the past... I wouldn't know what I know except they gave me understanding about so to say that I'm not listening just isn't true Zero would have people believe. It does feel like censorship in some ways because my opinions and expressions here is not without a smart remark or some level of "Nope... You can't do that either" in that type of affect and it gets sometimes hostile as if they don't want me, which I know may or may not be true; I just approach it as lightly as I can, but I had to vent that time.

 

I don't won't the thread to get that "wink-and-nod" again about locking it up... It's a very decent thread and I think it deserves to stay open, but I also think the game enthusiast voice doesn't always sync with the reality of the hardware so I hear you Clint. I got to avoid that wink and nod though... lol  :lol:

 

RadiantSaneGoral-size_restricted.gif


Edited by philipj, Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:09 PM.


#236 CyranoJ ONLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:16 PM

I admit he is right.

I had no idea the Jaguar (or my API) was capable of the shit w1g has produced, even after experiencing supercross.

PS. Thanks for the vote of confidence but I'm not the highest power in this thread. I bow to zerosquare's knowledge and I believe he has already politely called you both moronic imbeciles so I don't have much to add.

#237 WAVE 1 GAMES OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:26 PM

I admit he is right.
I had no idea the Jaguar (or my API) was capable of the shit w1g has produced, even after experiencing supercross.


:)

#238 philipj OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:33 PM

My bloody job cost me aspects of my health.

Serious back injury and loss of upper range of my hearing (high frequency range) and has resulted in permanent tinnitus. |-O

 

Oh man I'm sorry hear about that... Before I had took up CAD I worked at "Home Quarters" before the franchise closed doing all kind of manual labor lifting 40, 60, and 80 pounds of concrete and all sorts of lumber and every other thing you can imagine having to were back braces and what-have-you. I committed to getting an office job in CAD and that's exactly what I did before my back would give in; My doctor warned me and I listened and I'm glad I did. Today I have chronic back pains, but I think it would've been a lot worse if I hadn't followed through. It's manageable today, but I hope things work out for you man. :)


Edited by philipj, Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:34 PM.


#239 WAVE 1 GAMES OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:45 PM

I admit he is right.
I had no idea the Jaguar (or my API) was capable of the shit w1g has produced, even after experiencing supercross.
PS. Thanks for the vote of confidence but I'm not the highest power in this thread. I bow to zerosquare's knowledge and I believe he has already politely called you both moronic imbeciles so I don't have much to add.

Does this look like the face of a moron to you? I AM an Atari Jaguar for Halloween! You are just a werewolf..... Could probably scare you away with loud noises. Lol

received_474191259769805.jpeg

#240 Gummy Bear OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:53 PM

loud.gif

#241 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:59 PM

Changed jobs twice since then and company i work for now was good enough to pay for private health care sessions when my back last gave out and carry out regular hearing tests to minimise hearing detoration best they can.

Working in heavy industry takes it's toll on others a lot more than my limited time in it.

Nowadays i do mixed shifts including nights which are supposed to take years off your life :-))

I do what you do..manage the ailments, little more can be done.

Once the quack tells you the damage is done..it's done.

#242 philipj OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:38 PM

Changed jobs twice since then and company i work for now was good enough to pay for private health care sessions when my back last gave out and carry out regular hearing tests to minimise hearing detoration best they can.

Working in heavy industry takes it's toll on others a lot more than my limited time in it.

Nowadays i do mixed shifts including nights which are supposed to take years off your life :-))

I do what you do..manage the ailments, little more can be done.

Once the quack tells you the damage is done..it's done.

 

:( Awe man sorry to hear that man... Chronic back pain is no joke. Popping them pain pills is serious business especially with the "Ibuprofin"... That stuff can cause "Cirrhosis of the Liver" over a long stretch of time if you take it daily; I only take it if I really need it and some days I just put up with the pain to keep from taking so much of it. A lot of times it could just be stiffness of the muscles where you have to work with the pain until the stiffness goes away... And "Iceyhot and Blue-Emu" always good for pain relief. I don't want to throw the topic off course, but keep fighting man for a better quality of life and try not and wind up bed ridden at an old age because back stress.



#243 Stephen OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:14 PM

I covered this in the past. What are you basing the "but the Jag can handle that" on? Just because they both have a 68k and Z80 doesn't mean a thing. Read up on the Neo Geo's buses and you'll quickly see why this isn't possible...among many other reasons.

Woo - not catching up on 4 pages of surely all arguments.  But I think I can safely say, that phillipj is to the Jaguar forum as "Carmel Andrews" was to the 8-bit forum :)



#244 philipj OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:35 PM

Woo - not catching up on 4 pages of surely all arguments.  But I think I can safely say, that phillipj is to the Jaguar forum as "Carmel Andrews" was to the 8-bit forum :)

 

Who's Carmel Andrews...? I was trying to just blend in and be a regular, that's all.



#245 VintageGamer74 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 1, 2018 10:34 AM

@philipj Good luck on your coding. Baby steps, brother. 👍👍👍

#246 Spider-Dan OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 2, 2018 1:26 AM

The Jaguar hardware itself was limited by Ram and the development teams working on it didn't have the resources, experience or budgets the likes of Sega, Capcom, Treasure, SNK etc could call apon.

[...]

Capcom have spoken about the frustrations of the western markets unwilling to risk backing the 4 meg Ram cart for the Saturn and so they had to look on as compromised versions of their games were released.

The primary benefit of 2D developers like Capcom or SNK making games for the Jaguar would have been the deemphasis of RAM relative to the CD-based consoles. At the most basic level, an accessory like a 4MB RAM cart is completely unnecessary for a Jaguar when the entire game is accessible through the cartridge slot (as opposed to just 4MB at a time). Of course, the tradeoff would be the expense of the cartridges.

Still, you can see a small example where this could have led with Street Fighter Alpha 2 on SNES:



No "load time" per se, but noticeable pauses as the system decompresses data from the cartridge.  Would the Jaguar have been significantly better at the same kind of decompression?  I can't say.

Ultimately, I think the biggest difference between 2D and 3D on the Jaguar is that we have PLENTY of examples of the Jag's 3D capabilities being stretched to the breaking point and beyond, but AFAIK there isn't really an example of the Jag's 2D capabilities being taxed at the same level. I mean, even the mighty Saturn was brought to its 2D knees on occasion:



And that's really the heart of my question... what would it take to max out the Jag's 2D capabilities?


Edited by Spider-Dan, Fri Nov 2, 2018 1:27 AM.


#247 remowilliams OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 2, 2018 11:22 AM

And that's really the heart of my question... what would it take to max out the Jag's 2D capabilities?

 

:D

 



#248 VintageGamer74 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 2, 2018 11:53 AM

Never seen that before. Really cool demo! Thanks for sharing.

#249 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 2, 2018 12:21 PM

:D
 
https://www.youtube....h?v=_eayMWYO-7c



New for myself as well.

Huge thanks for putting that up.

#250 Christos OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Nov 5, 2018 9:02 AM

Re: Neo Geo.... I don't know about the Jag, that's what the falcon can do:

 






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