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What was the Jaguar truly capable of?


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#276 agradeneu OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 7, 2018 6:09 AM

In all seriousness, the jaguar can probably do much more impressive effects than the neo geo due to sheer processing power. But the amount of graphics and data the neo geo could access are on a whole different level.

 

Just an indication that the amount of data of NEOGEO is probably  a "tad" overestimated. A 165 Kbyte background in 16 bit color for a Jaguar game when converted to 4 bit Color is roughly around 1/4 of the data =41 Kbyte.  An 128x128 explosion bmp in 4 bit color  is the same data like 32x32 explosion bmp in 16 bit color (an explosion which is actually used in a Jaguar game btw). Now Keep in mind that Native is using 1.) 16 bit Bitmaps 2.) real time unpacking the data with the DSP "on the fly"

WHILE maintaining a flawless 60 FPS/s!

 

NEO GEO games are all about the artwork and the sheer amount of artwork crammed into huge ROM space. Rayman on the Jaguar still does better with big 16 bit color sprites  and smoother animation ,all with just 2MB ROM space! 


Edited by agradeneu, Wed Nov 7, 2018 6:18 AM.


#277 agradeneu OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 7, 2018 10:05 AM

 

Spoken by someone who actually knows. :thumbsup:

Highly disprespectful of the actual creators of Native. Either you are totally clueless or just too full of yourself to realize the bigotry of your statement. Duranik are proven developers, they used any system they were working on to the fulllest potential - Lynx, Dreamcast and hopefully Jaguar again. It's not a sign of weakness to acknowledge their master class in terms of technical and graphical prowess. Native is the legit benchmark for any 2D game on the Jaguar. PERIOD. Their work and modesty (no BS talk but hard work!) should encourage everyone. Now its time to stop pointless arguments wasting my time and energy I could use elsewhere -  welcome to my ignore list!


Edited by agradeneu, Wed Nov 7, 2018 10:05 AM.


#278 madman OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 7, 2018 10:07 AM

NEO GEO games are all about the artwork and the sheer amount of artwork crammed into huge ROM space. Rayman on the Jaguar still does better with big 16 bit color sprites  and smoother animation ,all with just 2MB ROM space! 

Rayman on the Jag has bigger sprites and smoother animation than every single Neo Geo game? Is that what you mean by the Jaguar doing "better" than the Neo Geo? 



#279 Austin OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 7, 2018 12:30 PM

Highly disprespectful of the actual creators of Native. Either you are totally clueless or just too full of yourself to realize the bigotry of your statement. Duranik are proven developers, they used any system they were working on to the fulllest potential - Lynx, Dreamcast and hopefully Jaguar again. It's not a sign of weakness to acknowledge their master class in terms of technical and graphical prowess. Native is the legit benchmark for any 2D game on the Jaguar. PERIOD. Their work and modesty (no BS talk but hard work!) should encourage everyone. Now its time to stop pointless arguments wasting my time and energy I could use elsewhere -  welcome to my ignore list!

 

Dude, if making a logical comment is enough to get slapped on your ignore list, grow some thicker skin.

 

It's irritating to me when armchair experts become so adamant what a system is "capable" of, willfully ignoring those that actually do have experience (i.e., people like CJ who, oh I don't know.. actually program Jaguar games).



#280 philipj OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 7, 2018 12:30 PM

 

Just an indication that the amount of data of NEOGEO is probably  a "tad" overestimated. A 165 Kbyte background in 16 bit color for a Jaguar game when converted to 4 bit Color is roughly around 1/4 of the data =41 Kbyte.  An 128x128 explosion bmp in 4 bit color  is the same data like 32x32 explosion bmp in 16 bit color (an explosion which is actually used in a Jaguar game btw). Now Keep in mind that Native is using 1.) 16 bit Bitmaps 2.) real time unpacking the data with the DSP "on the fly"

WHILE maintaining a flawless 60 FPS/s!

 

NEO GEO games are all about the artwork and the sheer amount of artwork crammed into huge ROM space. Rayman on the Jaguar still does better with big 16 bit color sprites  and smoother animation ,all with just 2MB ROM space! 

 

One of the things I admired about the Jag was its ability to do high resolution, but I see why a lot of developers never really shot for the 600x400 res style graphics in the beginning... Just looking at Neo Geo specs on Wikipedia and other emulation sites in the past (and I haven't forgotten the links provided on this topic, thanks btw), I think it's pretty impressive what Duranik was able to do with the animation. I guess in my search for a comparison between the two hardware the Neo Geo and the Jaguar was an attempt to find a balance for graphics and animation in a way that helps to free up some of the Jag hardware responsibilities. I remember reading about how Duranik used the DSP to decompress those graphic files and how there wasn't enough cartridge space to finish the game. Just look at the animation YouTube... That's was the game they intended, but never saw the light of day, but the fact that they got that close meant that you do a modest level of good stuff on the Jaguar. I've always known that the Arcade Jamma standard the Neo Geo sported on its hardware using high bandwidth was a big factor, I just didn't know to what degree, but just look at the size of the Neo Geo cartridge versus the Jag cartridge with two output slots at the bottom instead of the typical small mass market game console off-the-shelf cartridge with fewer pins than the Neo Geo. 

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • Neo-Geo-AES-Cartridge-Bottom.jpg
  • AtariJaguar_Cartridge_Front_Rayman.jpg


#281 Gummy Bear OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 7, 2018 12:59 PM

Highly disprespectful of the actual creators of Native. Either you are totally clueless or just too full of yourself to realize the bigotry of your statement. Duranik are proven developers, they used any system they were working on to the fulllest potential - Lynx, Dreamcast and hopefully Jaguar again. It's not a sign of weakness to acknowledge their master class in terms of technical and graphical prowess. Native is the legit benchmark for any 2D game on the Jaguar. PERIOD. Their work and modesty (no BS talk but hard work!) should encourage everyone. Now its time to stop pointless arguments wasting my time and energy I could use elsewhere -  welcome to my ignore list!


And you branded ME defensive?

I love the Jag, but wishful thinking ain't going to make it better than facts demonstrate.

Calm down with your unbridled Duranik worship. You're losing credibility hand over fist.

#282 madman OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 7, 2018 1:29 PM

I've always known that the Arcade Jamma standard the Neo Geo sported on its hardware using high bandwidth was a big factor, I just didn't know to what degree, but just look at the size of the Neo Geo cartridge versus the Jag cartridge with two output slots at the bottom instead of the typical small mass market game console off-the-shelf cartridge with fewer pins than the Neo Geo. 

 

Nonsense...the JAMMA connector has nothing to do with that, it simply supplies voltage, outputs video and reads control inputs. The home console isn't JAMMA and is the same overall architecture.



#283 philipj OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 7, 2018 1:56 PM

Nonsense...the JAMMA connector has nothing to do with that, it simply supplies voltage, outputs video and reads control inputs. The home console isn't JAMMA and is the same overall architecture.

 

Well clearly the home console isn't JAMMA, but thanks for shedding some light on that... It's been years since I looked at anything JAMMA other than Wikipedia specs and emulation sites. The point I was making was trying to find a balance concerning graphics and animation on a limited file size versus what the Neo Geo cartridge was handling; I'm not even talking about emulation any more at this point for the sake of clarity, but just graphics, animation, and file size... Something that Duranik dealt with when they used the DSP to decompress the images; it reminded me of the JagPEG format I read about in the Jag documents that used CRY via the GPU; I use to think Duranik was using that particular format for there graphics to cram in a cartridge.


Edited by philipj, Wed Nov 7, 2018 2:16 PM.


#284 madman OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 7, 2018 2:23 PM

 

Well clearly the home console isn't JAMMA, but thanks for shedding some light on that... It's been years since I looked at anything JAMMA other than Wikipedia specs and emulation sites. The point I was making was trying to find a balance concerning graphics and animation on a limited file size versus what the Neo Geo cartridge was handling; I'm not even talking about emulation any more at this point for the sake of clarity, but just graphics, animation, and file size... Something that Duranik dealt with when they used the DSP to decompress the images; it reminded me of the JagPEG format I read about in the Jag documents that used CRY via the GPU; I use to think Duranik was using that particular format for there graphics to cram in a cartridge.

The only thing JAMMA provides is a common interface for arcade boards. It outputs whatever RGB signal the board generates. It doesn't have anything to do with bandwidth of the Neo Geo or anything of the sort. The multiple buses on the Neo Geo itself are part of what made the Neo so powerful.



#285 PeterG OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 7, 2018 2:42 PM

If I remember correctly the Native Video above is from a planned Nuon version and not for the Jag...



#286 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 7, 2018 3:09 PM

If I remember correctly the Native Video above is from a planned Nuon version and not for the Jag...

Unseen64 confirms your thoughts:
Note that while the videos below say that they are from the Atari Jaguar version, these are actually the NUON demos Duranik had made.
https://www.unseen64...nuon-cancelled/

Edited by Lost Dragon, Wed Nov 7, 2018 3:10 PM.


#287 CyranoJ OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 7, 2018 3:40 PM

Guys calm down. Just enjoy it for what it is.

#288 Zerosquare OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 7, 2018 3:52 PM

A slick grey-and-red fumes generator?



#289 madman OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 7, 2018 4:09 PM

A slick grey-and-red fumes generator?

I think it's an unfounded beliefs and rumors generator these days.



#290 phoenixdownita OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 7, 2018 10:41 PM

Unseen64 confirms your thoughts:
Note that while the videos below say that they are from the Atari Jaguar version, these are actually the NUON demos Duranik had made.
https://www.unseen64...nuon-cancelled/

Interesting that it became Sturmwind on the DC if I have to believe

https://en.wikipedia.../wiki/Sturmwind



#291 MAYAman OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 9, 2018 11:44 AM

I thought the Jaguar did decent 3D, Iron Soldier is great.  I think that they should have done more 2.5D games like Donkey Kong Country and maybe 2D sprite monster games like Neo Geo.  Just my thoughts.






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