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Extron 7SC fan


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#1 jjh76 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:17 AM

Recently bought an Extron 7SC and it's been working great, but the fan is really loud, anyone know of a super-quiet replacement fan that will fit?



#2 -^CrožBow^- OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:24 AM

While I can't directly answer this, I've a few questions about this box..

 

On the front input 7, can you have both composite and s-video plugged in at the same time and still have one or the other work? On my current video selector I use, I actually have two front inputs, but if the select detects a cable plugged into the s-video inputs, it kills the composite input and I get tired of having to plug and unplug my s-video when I swap out consoles for use and testing on that front connector.

 

I see it uses those odd audio input lines in the back designed for essentially connecting in bare wire. Is that a pain to work with when you have multiple inputs on this thing?

 

I see it is a scaler, but I believe it just displays the input picture at the true resolution and then the scaler portion allows you to stretch and fit the image as you want from there correct? 

 

If the above is correct, is there any lag introduced in this? I would suspect there has to be come given it must use a video processor to resize and scale the image as you set it.



#3 jjh76 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:49 PM

For the front panel input, it has composite, s-video and vga, it does auto-select one but you can go into the menu and switch between them without having to unplug anything. However, it only has one audio input for all 3 so you will need to change out the wires unless you're using a separate switchbox for audio.

 

For the audio connections on the back, I bought some of these phoenix connectors:

 

https://www.ebay.com...2oAAOSwjXNbHdZT

 

Here's the wiring diagrams, please note that the input and output need to be wired up differently, and if you are using standard rca/stereo mini jacks then you will need to use the "unbalanced" diagrams:

 

http://media.extron....8-349-01__G.pdf

 

For the output I bought a cheap 3.5 stereo mini jack splitter and cut off one of the female ends. I don't know about ones from other manufacturers, but this one was easy to set up because the internal wires used the standard colors white = left, red = right, with ground using yellow:

20180731_130642.jpg

 

For the inputs I'm temporarily using this setup, but only until I can figure out something better:

20180731_130915.jpg

 

For video, output is selectable to  RGBHV, RGBS, or RGsB done through either a set of 5 BNC connectors or a standard 15 pin vga port,  the lowest resolution it can output is 640x480,  but it can do scaling to the following resolutions (taken directly from Extron's website):

 

640x4801,3,4,5, 800x6001,3,4,5, 832x6243,4,5, 848x4803, 852x4803, 1024x7681,3,4,5, 1280x7682, 1280x10241,3,5, 1360x7653, 1365x10243,5, 480p3,5, 720p3,5, 1080p3,5, 1080i3,5
1= at 50 Hz, 2= at 56 Hz, 3= at 60 Hz, 4= at 75 Hz,
5= locked to the current input's vertical refresh rate

 

I have not noticed any lag myself, but I only because I don't pay that much attention. However I have read on other websites that lag is minimal because the scaling is done on a line by line basis


Edited by jjh76, Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:56 PM.


#4 -^CrožBow^- OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:27 PM

Excellent information! Thanks! 



#5 -^CrožBow^- OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Aug 1, 2018 7:38 AM

In thinking about this...have you tested to see just how hot exactly if at all the 7SC actually gets? I say this because we have network switches with small fans in them and they like most fans will eventually wear out over time and start to squeal..etc. We found that the switches really don't get that hot and just started to unplug the fans completely without any issues so far. And we did this years ago...



#6 -^CrožBow^- OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 3, 2018 6:02 PM

So the 7SC I just received in the mail also has a pretty noisy side exhaust fan. I will crack it open in a bit and see what actually gets warm and if a fan is really needed. Also if I'm reading my lag tests correct, this thing is only about 1.5 - 2fps max on the lag!!! Amazing! And the fact that I can route CVBS, S-vid, RGB, and component all at once and only use a single vga cable out for all of that just ROCKS!!!

 

My only issue is that I have sections of the video that will jitter along with sprite movements. While playing it is that noticable but when watching static scenes with minimal movement it is quite obvious. Still for the super convience of 7 inputs from composite to component or RGB all at once within reason is just insane. Now I need to get some s-video female connections and wire them up to RCAs for my few consoles I have on s-video as the best video output. 

 

And yes, I've tested it connecting the vga out from the 7SC into my OSSC and it doesn't add any lag doing this, but I do lose the 5x ability since the VGA is 640x480 as its lowest res. I've been messing with it locked in at 720p for now. 1080 works, but occasionally gives some odd graphical glitching that is coming from the 7SC processor side. Could also be the VGA out on that through the HDMI converter or OSSC just doesn't present the cleanest signal that the TV will go for. But yeah...the checkerboarding is gone that I usually have from Reds on s-video and I'm digging this. Now to figure out how to rewire the AV setup finally to get this going.

 

This thing may be huge, but it is way more versatile than the Retrotink could ever be and for half the cost in my case. Now if only those phoenix connectors had come in today...

 

But yeah, I will look at how critical the fan really is, and also give you the specs on it. I'm betting I could get replacements for these at my local electronics shop.



#7 -^CrožBow^- OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 3, 2018 10:35 PM

Okay, mine is pretty nasty inside as well.

 

The fan is small at only 60mm x 60mm x 17mm roughly. But it is mighty. It is a 12volt DC 2-wire fan. Should be easy to find a replacement. The exact replacement can be had from Mouser/Digi...but a tad pricey I think.

 

https://www.digikey....-2485-ND/441551

 

https://www.mouser.c...L4zOpPmumU8XA==

 

The fan does appear to be needed as it is designed to cool the internal power supply.



#8 jjh76 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 3, 2018 10:35 PM

I also see the pixel shifting, mostly when things in a game are moving against a static background. Maybe the moving objects are throwing the calculations off slightly for those scan lines? When using component out from my PS2 I've also noticed some noise patterns in the darkest areas of the screen, but I'm not sure if it's from the 7SC or from the component cables I'm using.

 

For wiring up the audio, the output line is the simplest as you only need the three wires for left, right, and ground. I used a female stereo mini jack so I could just plug a set of amplified pc speakers right into it.

 

For the input lines, the wiring is almost exactly the same, except that the two unused pins need to be connected to the ground, unless whatever you're hooking up to it uses balanced audio, whatever that is.



#9 -^CrožBow^- OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Aug 4, 2018 9:00 AM

I also see the pixel shifting, mostly when things in a game are moving against a static background. Maybe the moving objects are throwing the calculations off slightly for those scan lines? When using component out from my PS2 I've also noticed some noise patterns in the darkest areas of the screen, but I'm not sure if it's from the 7SC or from the component cables I'm using.

 

For wiring up the audio, the output line is the simplest as you only need the three wires for left, right, and ground. I used a female stereo mini jack so I could just plug a set of amplified pc speakers right into it.

 

For the input lines, the wiring is almost exactly the same, except that the two unused pins need to be connected to the ground, unless whatever you're hooking up to it uses balanced audio, whatever that is.

 

Pixel shifting is an excellent way to put it. And yes it is when sprites or other moving objects against a static background that I see it. But I also see it happen on the score area in Gunstar Heroes for instance on the Genesis through s-video. I did find out in reading up on this thing, that what we are seeing with the pixel shifting (Mine will sometimes shift an entire line of graphics across the screen btw), it due to the built in Motion mode compensation on this. I however cannot find a way to disable it. I did turn off the smoothing because that will cause the shifting to be even worse sometimes.

 

And yeah I have the PDF from extron on how to wire up the audio. Balanced is usually used in XLR type setups with studio mixers and the like. So most stuff would be unbalanced. BTW...I'm using the exact same type of RCA jacks that I plan to wire up as you did. But how are you protecting the back side of that assembly? Mine have the metal strips that connect to the RCA jacks exposed on the back of it. I can use some shrink tubing on one of the lines but not both so I'm looking into ways to prevent them from shorting against other connectors etc.

 

Also you can't use both the VGA and component output at the same time on the output side. And...the component output can only be used with component inputs. So it looks like the VGA out is the only way to go if you want all sources to come out of a single cable. It isn't an issue as I'm actually using a BNC to vga adapter on the output of mine that I had laying around. 

 

Did you see the above info I posted about the specs on the fan?



#10 jjh76 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Aug 4, 2018 9:59 AM

The one pic I posted for the audio input is the only one I've actually set up atm. I haven't done any others yet because I'm planning to check a few local shops to see if they have anything that would work better. I've also decided to just pull the fan out and take it with me to see if I can find something that matches it.



#11 -^CrožBow^- OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Aug 4, 2018 10:35 AM

The one pic I posted for the audio input is the only one I've actually set up atm. I haven't done any others yet because I'm planning to check a few local shops to see if they have anything that would work better. I've also decided to just pull the fan out and take it with me to see if I can find something that matches it.

 

If you want to try a quieter fan...then perhaps this one can be made to work? It might be too thick, but maybe not..

 

https://www.amazon.c...6ZGWCMTNX&psc=1

 

Again it is actually 25mm in width so it might be too wide. I know it can fit physically into the space, but not sure the threaded studs on the side of the case will be long enough.



#12 jjh76 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Aug 4, 2018 6:53 PM

Picked up a same size fan from the Axe Man (surplus store here in MN) for $3. Not completely silent but much quieter than the old one.

 

Also found an easier way to setup the phoenix connectors. Instead of messing around with the stacked rca jacks, I'm just going to use 3.5mm stereo mini jacks on the inputs, then use mini jack to rca adapters.

 

 

20180804_1934211.jpg



#13 jjh76 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Aug 5, 2018 1:45 PM

Just though of something - do I need to get some bnc terminators for the unused connections on this?



#14 -^CrožBow^- OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Aug 5, 2018 9:27 PM

no..you don't. I've already been messing around with mine (minus sound as my phoenix connectors haven't come in yet), and it will essentially auto detect what is connected and what isn't. If you have more than one thing connected up, for instance like on input 7 on the front, then it will essentially default to RGBHV but you can choose whatever you want. I really like that versatility with this and the only thing I'm going to have an issue with now, is all the s-video devices I have since they use standard s-video 4pin din connectors and I will have to get them split to separate luma and chroma inputs. Not sure how I want to go about that just yet.



#15 jjh76 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Aug 5, 2018 11:01 PM

They're a little expensive, but I have seen s-video to bnc breakout cables on ebay and amazon.

 

Each of the 6 inputs on the back has 5 bnc connectors, I've read that if you don't use all of the connectors on an input circuit the unused ones can act like rf antennas and create noise in the video signal. The terminators put a resistor between the center pin and the ground, which is supposed to filter this out. Since I do see some noise patterns with my PS2 I was wondering if this was the reason.



#16 -^CrožBow^- OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Aug 5, 2018 11:08 PM

Yes, but the manual doesn't mention anything about them being needed? 



#17 -^CrožBow^- OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Aug 6, 2018 8:19 AM

Well using my VGA to BNC breakout cable I have and a few composite connections plus testing of both VGA and s-video on the front input, I didn't see any interference to my eyes. However, I did noticed that the VGA connector on the front does seem to have a slightly more washed out picture as opposed to using the breakout adapter on any of the rear inputs. Also interesting is that the DC appears to provide all h/v sync information because with s-video and composite connections, I can adjust the width and height as I deem fit, but with the DC through the 7SC those options aren't available and display an N/A on the panel when you try and use them. 

 

No issue though as the DC image was razor sharp. Using the 240p test, it would seem that the extron does have about 3 - 4fps of lag if the audio lag test is to be trusted. So that would mean that the manual lag test I've gotten accustomed to the timing of it and am able to make that test look better than it might be. I can tell that there wasn't any perceptible lag when I was playing Gunlord and Re-volt on my DC through the extron and back out through the OSSC.

 

I did test it both with and without the OSSC in the mix, and since the OSSC is in pass-thru mode for the DC VGA resolution, it doesn't add to the lag at all. Even when it wasn't in pass-thru mode, it didn't seem to add any lag according to 240p test suite. So yeah, it looks like I will be able to eventually get this all wired up for my classic consoles and then run the VGA out from it into the VGA in on the OSSC. I then have an extra component connection should that be needed for anything else I wish to run externally into the OSSC. I do have the ability to hook up SCART RGB output for the SNES and the Saturn and might go that route. Could also run the Genesis that way, but the jail bars seemed to be more pronounced than they are through my HDretrovision cables.



#18 -^CrožBow^- OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:31 AM

To bring this back on topic, I did end up getting a cheaper but basically exact spec'd fan from Mouser. Instead of the more expensive Papst brand that originally comes in these, I picked up a Sunon of the same size and voltage requirement. Tt is also still quite audible but at least it doesn't cause the case to vibrate like the original was doing.

 

https://www.mouser.c...-MF60151V21UA99

 

There are even cheaper fans to be had in this size of course, but I specifically chose this Sunon due to the MTBF that is listed at 70,000 hours. That is basically the same as the original Papst branded one and for under $8 I figured that was good deal.

 

If you ever need to replace the lamps in the indicator switches (I had three burned out in mine..), Mouser also has these for the cheapest price I've found thus far. You can get the original exact replacements off ebay, but they are pretty expensive at about $50 for a 10 pack of them. I went with much cheaper ones that still have similar life spans on them and meet the same voltage and amperage specs of the original. I picked up 10 of these to have some spares on hand and you literally cannot tell the difference between these and the originals when they are installed. They look the same minus different printing on the base of course, but otherwise the same. It would be awesome to have LEDs in these sockets instead, and I was able to plug a +5 white LED straight in, but the current for these lights is much too strong and would require some modification behind the control panel to use LEDs since there isn't any room in the buttons to add resistors of strong enough value to reduce the current properly. Still I might look into this in the future, but I doubt the bulbs I got will need to be replaced anytime soon given their 20,000 hour life. The originals have 50,000 hour life but still for 20,000 you have to run the lamps at full 6.3v for 24/365 and it would take over 2 years to burn them out. Since the sockets only put out +5 (Dead on I might add!), these bulbs will last longer than that.

 

https://www.mouser.c...tail/606-CM7381

 

Now I'm just waiting on Phoenix connectors and s-video cabling and adapters to arrive so I can start to redo my A/V setup in the game room.

 

BTW the pixel shift doesn't occur from the Dreamcast at all. So I would say the pixel shifting is due to the auto motion mode that is enabled for all scaled images. Knowing this, it might be worth it to set the 7SC to output at 640x480 only but there would still be some scaling taking place. Just have to see if anything can be done to minimize it. It is really only distracting on cut scenes in games that use static backgrounds with moving objects in front as the shifting or shimmering like effect happen around the movment only.



#19 jjh76 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:43 AM

The firmware is on an M27C512 uv eprom. I wonder if it can be hacked to turn off the DMI?



#20 -^CrožBow^- OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:43 PM

Even if you could turn off the motion mode, it is likely required for the scaler to work properly and could even be a byproduct of the scaler in action that causes it. After all, this thing is taking any video signal you feed into it and spitting it back out as 640x480 and above through the VGA out. So the scaler has to be in use for anything less than that base resolution.






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