Would Commodore have survived if they joined the gaming market? (XEGS etc.)

[JaguarVision]

I hold the controversial belief that the Commodore 64 doing as well as it did marked the end of Commodores computer ventures. In an era of increasing PC clones, where Tramiel Ataris most profitable hardware was TV consoles, and gaming computers were called "toys" by businesses, i firmly believe that there was nothing after the C64 Commodore could have done to give PC's a run for their money in business.

 

 

With that said I know Commodore entered the gaming market, in part, with the CD32. However the CD32 was more like an experiment they were still putting out Amigas and the CD32 was able to be upgraded to a Amiga 1200 iirc anyway.

 

One thing about Commodore is post C64 is that if you wanted gaming graphics at a reasonable price, they were the people you would go to. Their games looked and played better than the software you saw on the Genesis and SNES and i think that if Commodore changed their strategy to be a gaming company they likely would have survived and be possibly a big name even today.

 

Not only could they have made a powerful gaming system, but include media features in it to help further differentiate it from the competition.

 

Look at experiments like the CDTV, which launched at $999!!!! But if that system was stripped of everything except gaming that is an easy $300 console. Remember the CDTV came out in 1991 which would be at the right time to compete.

 

Even today Commodore is remembered more for being a gaming giant than a large computer manufacturer So I think this is something to think about.

 

The reason why i brought up the CDTV is because it was an Amiga 500 with a CD drive. By reformatting the CDTV to be a console by removing irrelevant ports and such, and using later Amiga specs, you have a $300-$400 gaming console more capable than the SNES/Genesis, with polygon support, and CD audio. Add the ability to play music, video, and photo cds and it's a wrap. If Atari can come out with the Xegs and sell out every system they produce at launch with minimal advertising and lack of retailer presence, a company like commodore could actually compete.

[Flojomojo]

How many "what if" threads are you going to make today?

[JaguarVision]

How many "what if" threads are you going to make today?

 

I've only made two threads the other was a bump of an old one.

 

So, what do you think? I personally don't see any future where Commodore succeeds as computer company unless the C64 failed honestly. Sure you can blame poor managing on a lot of commodores issues but Commodore was already "making toys" in businesses eyes before Amiga even released.

[godslabrat]

Im not seeing how this opinion is controversial. A company that didn't succeed would likely have also NOT succeeded until most rational circumstances? Pretty sensible to me.

 

From a US perspective, Nintendo had a lock on the console market in the late 80s/early 90s, and Microsoft had a lock on PCs in the same timeframe. To find a scenario where that wouldn't be the case, you have to upend history as we know it.

 

Of course, maybe then Firefly wouldn't have been cancelled.

[Flojomojo]

I don't know. I think the pure gaming side was in a funk after the big crash, and it was being a computer that kept Commodore going as long as it did.

 

All businesses fail, except for those that don't. It's "nice" that we have a relatively healthy tech sector now.

[JaguarVision]

I don't know. I think the pure gaming side was in a funk after the big crash, and it was being a computer that kept Commodore going as long as it did.

 

All businesses fail, except for those that don't. It's "nice" that we have a relatively healthy tech sector now.

 

Tech sector yes, but i don't know about gaming specifically. Gaming right now is basically a members only club. Price of entry is so high right now only a major tech company could even hope to introduce a new product, and for software, it's getting up there as well with how over inflated AAA development is. The indie wall was a good buffer for awhile but now that's getting inflated to.

[Flojomojo]

Hardware is big-boys only, but software is more democratic than ever. Anyone can make an indie game nowadays -- and small/indie games most resemble "classic" gaming. The real trick is getting noticed.

 

So-called AAA development is more like movie production.

 

I think Commodore would have died sooner or later, just like the rest. If IBM couldn't stay in the consumer PC business, who could?

[Osgeld]

but they did with the C64GS

[mr_me]

A console won't sell if it doesn't have that game that everybody wants. Since commodore didn't make software they would have had no hope. It's too bad; an amiga gaming console around 1987 would have been nice.

[CatPix]

Commodore would have survived if they didn't made so many management errors.

What killed Commodore is poor management of the Amiga and Commodore brands.

Amiga especially. What killed it is that when they (failed to?) realized that the market for computer was going through an always-upgradeable machine and backward-compatibility, instead of doing like Apple that switched from 68K to PowerPC, they stuck with the 68 k and kept adding additionnal boards. Which themselves were non-evolutive; so newer Amiga had to include every popular board, which mean they were expensive to make, expensive to buy, and ultimately, struggled to keep decent performances; comaring with IBM PC where you could pull your old Hercules video card and replacing it with a SVGA card without much trouble, it was a no-brainer choice.

As other said, to make a console, you need to have software.

There would have been software, tho. Tons of games that existed on 16 bits computer never made it to consoles.

But most of those people would prefer to buy a full computer rather than limiting themselves to a console. An Amiga XEGS might have sold a few units, but you also have to take in account the price difference. The price for a NES was 1/4 the price of an Amiga computer, so even if you cut some corners by removing the keyboard, you'd have a very expensive system. Doing this in the 8 bits era was possible, because by the late 80's, 8 bits processors were cheap, and you could shove 64 or 128 ko of RAM in a system for cheap as well.

In the early 90's, it wasn't possible to get 16 bits parts for cheap.

Edited September 8, 2018 by CatPix

[JaguarVision]

Commodore would have survived if they didn't made so many management errors.

What killed Commodore is poor management of the Amiga and Commodore brands.

Amiga especially. What killed it is that when they (failed to?) realized that the market for computer was going through an always-upgradeable machine and backward-compatibility, instead of doing like Apple that switched from 68K to PowerPC, they stuck with the 68 k and kept adding additionnal boards. Which themselves were non-evolutive; so newer Amiga had to include every popular board, which mean they were expensive to make, expensive to buy, and ultimately, struggled to keep decent performances; comaring with IBM PC where you could pull your old Hercules video card and replacing it with a SVGA card without much trouble, it was a no-brainer choice.

As other said, to make a console, you need to have software.

There would have been software, tho. Tons of games that existed on 16 bits computer never made it to consoles.

But most of those people would prefer to buy a full computer rather than limiting themselves to a console. An Amiga XEGS might have sold a few units, but you also have to take in account the price difference. The price for a NES was 1/4 the price of an Amiga computer, so even if you cut some corners by removing the keyboard, you'd have a very expensive system. Doing this in the 8 bits era was possible, because by the late 80's, 8 bits processors were cheap, and you could shove 64 or 128 ko of RAM in a system for cheap as well.

In the early 90's, it wasn't possible to get 16 bits parts for cheap.

 

The Amiga 500 was $600 so a slightly beefer version of that without the keyboard, extra ports, and processors could be around SNES price. I mean Amiga had the software, companies were on board and made many games on it. CDTV was a good idea but not at $999, and it costed that much because it wasn't a real TV experiment it was just a computer that plugged into your TV.

[empsolo]

Let’s be realistic here. Commodore was never going to coast on a games machine unless they were willing to put in the effort and release significant first party software to give people a reason to buy their machines.

 

 

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[mr_me]

As well as having some exclusive games that people want to play, commodore would have to invest in massive marketing to make it successful. I don't see that coming from commodore.

[JaguarVision]

As well as having some exclusive games that people want to play, commodore would have to invest in massive marketing to make it successful. I don't see that coming from commodore.

 

I don't understand this. The Amiga we have now, mismanaged expensive computer Amiga, has over 1,000 games. It wouldn't really cost Commodore anything to have put out a console after the C64. The momentum alone would carry the name, as it did with the current Amiga we got. As a CD Console in launching in 1990 or 1991, it would already have gotten more games at launch than the Genesis or SNES did. You would still have your Zools and such. The only thing Commodore would have had to do is maybe advertise a few key titles in commercials to show it off. That's it.

 

Heck, Commodore could have done that with the CDTV if they made it an actual console and stripped out all the PC stuff.

 

Commodore really wouldn't need a first party as they had support from a ton of developers that neither the Genesis or the SNES would ever get.

 

Don't forget the CD32 was discontinued in 1 year and already had 173 games, so Commodore knew how to get and keep partners for games.

Edited September 8, 2018 by JaguarVision

[empsolo]

What happened to Commodore in real life? Oh that’s right, it got buried by the March of the IBM army on the home computer front and then was eclipsed by the Sega genesis and SNES on by the backs of their First party offerings. You can claim to have a 1000 games but if your marquee third parties are all piss poor ports, then nobody is going to have a reason to touch it. Why should I buy the the Amiga version of Street Fighter II when the Even the PC Engine version is a better conversion than what passes for quality on the Amiga?

 

 

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[Osgeld]

you seem to forget to make a console cheap the company makes money back on software

 

it doesnt matter if the amiga has a 1000 games if you cant collect a fee on any of them

 

see 3d0 for example

 

also one just doesnt rip out the "computer stuff" and make a console, then expect that 1000 games will work without it when it was specifically written for the computer

 

its much easier to make a computer based off a game console than going the other way around

Edited September 8, 2018 by Osgeld

[empsolo]

you seem to forget to make a console cheap the company makes money back on software

 

it doesnt matter if the amiga has a 1000 games if you cant collect a fee on any of them

 

see 3d0 for example

That’s also a true point. Never forget Yamauchi’s adage, Software sells hardware.

 

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Edited September 8, 2018 by empsolo

[Flojomojo]

Maybe they could have bought Psygnosis. Worked for Sony.

[JaguarVision]

you seem to forget to make a console cheap the company makes money back on software

 

it doesnt matter if the amiga has a 1000 games if you cant collect a fee on any of them

 

see 3d0 for example

 

also one just doesnt rip out the "computer stuff" and make a console, then expect that 1000 games will work without it when it was specifically written for the computer

 

its much easier to make a computer based off a game console than going the other way around

 

3DO had fees.

 

As for commodore I still don't understand where you guys are getting this from. All Commodore would have had to do is add some rule so that they get something for each hardware sold and for each disc printed. They were able to get 173 CD32 games on the verge of bankruptcy. They had the developers.

 

Almost every issue mentioned in this thread seems easily solvable if Commodore went into gaming instead of computing after C64. Also I'm equally confused to your comment about "stripped computer stuff", and the parts that run the games would still be in tact. None of the parts that contribute to the Amiga computers high prices involves the parts that run the games.

[Osgeld]

 

3DO had fees.

 

As for commodore I still don't understand where you guys are getting this from. All Commodore would have had to do is add some rule so that they get something for each hardware sold and for each disc printed. They were able to get 173 CD32 games on the verge of bankruptcy. They had the developers.

 

Almost every issue mentioned in this thread seems easily solvable if Commodore went into gaming instead of computing after C64. Also I'm equally confused to your comment about "stripped computer stuff", and the parts that run the games would still be in tact. None of the parts that contribute to the Amiga computers high prices involves the parts that run the games.

 

yea but their consoles cost 6-700 bucks cause the hardware manufacture did not get a part of those fee's

 

that's what you seem to be missing

 

also I don't know why your beating a dead horse

Edited September 8, 2018 by Osgeld

[akator]

Commodore was already in the gaming business from 1981 on. A majority of commercial software for the VIC, C64, and Amiga was games. Commodore released more Commodore branded games for the VIC and C64 than other software. The VIC chip was created for arcade machines and when it didn't sell they made a computer around it.

 

And Commodore was successful as a gaming company as well. When the US video game console crash happened, Commodore was still going strong selling computers and computer games.

 

Commodore died for lots of reasons. Their vertical integration manufacturing model that worked so well in the 70s and 80s didn't in the 90s when hardware grew more specialized and complex. Their management philosophy wasn't suited to competing in the 90s. Microsoft and PCs took over the computer world with little room for competition, even Apple almost went under by the late 90s.

 

I don't think there's anything that could have saved Commodore.

[JaguarVision]

 

yea but their consoles cost 6-700 bucks cause the hardware manufacture did not get a part of those fee's

 

that's what you seem to be missing

 

also I don't know why your beating a dead horse

 

I'm not missing anything. You are not comparing the 3DO to the Amiga which makes zero sense since Commodore would make the hardware. The 3DO was expensive because the manufactures of the machines themselves had to turn a profit. Also 3Do has fees, which you said it didn't.

 

there's literally nothing stopping a Commodore games console, they had the partnership and games. They were the biggest gaming name in PC, once the C64 was successful it was time to abandon computers. Sure they could do thing like bring-in a CD drive early and such and use their hardware team for some nice features, but I don't understand how you don't think Commodore would not have a chance as a gaming console.

 

Amiga 500 was $500-$600, cut some irrelevant PC stuff it's a consumer price game console, add a CD Drive for better games and ability to play music and Video CD's, partner with some developers to throw their games in commercials, done. Easy. Don't forget the SNES/GEN game market is not the same as the post PS1 game market. By the time GEN and SNES started getting over 100 games Commodore would have had 300 or more. They also would have an architecture easier to develop game for than both, They would also have CD technology out the box and built-in save storage.

[JaguarVision]

Commodore was already in the gaming business from 1981 on. A majority of commercial software for the VIC, C64, and Amiga was games. Commodore released more Commodore branded games for the VIC and C64 than other software. The VIC chip was created for arcade machines and when it didn't sell they made a computer around it.

 

And Commodore was successful as a gaming company as well. When the US video game console crash happened, Commodore was still going strong selling computers and computer games.

 

Commodore died for lots of reasons. Their vertical integration manufacturing model that worked so well in the 70s and 80s didn't in the 90s when hardware grew more specialized and complex. Their management philosophy wasn't suited to competing in the 90s. Microsoft and PCs took over the computer world with little room for competition, even Apple almost went under by the late 90s.

 

I don't think there's anything that could have saved Commodore.

 

If Commodore thought about their gaming idea with the CD32 earlier I think they may have had a chance of survival.s. However with what actually happened in real life, I kind of agree that outside of massive changes internally Commodore may have been always screwed.

 

One benefit Commodore did have was the Tramiels leaving, so Atari arguably was on the worse end of that stick.

[empsolo]

You are simply not getting it. Why would I buy an Amiga this when the library as it stands is 90% shovelware compared to their Console counterparts? Unless commodore was going to get serious about QA, the Amiga library was never going to attractive to all but the die hard PC gamers here in the United States.

 

 

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[JaguarVision]

You are simply not getting it. Why would I buy an Amiga this when the library as it stands is 90% shovelware compared to their Console counterparts? Unless commodore was going to get serious about QA, the Amiga library was never going to attractive to all but the die hard PC gamers here in the United States.

 

 

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What console counter parts? They would all release around the same time (outside japan) you're acting like Amiga would come out 3 years later before the SNES/MD are relevant in the US UK.

 

In the UK, SNES wasn't that relevant and came out late. Genesis may be a problem but Commodore was a big name in Europe and had a ton of developers.

 

In the US the NES would not come out until 91 and the genesis would coast until it got a boost in 91 with Sonic and others games.

 

The Amiga would have 3x the launch titles with CHEAPER games than both the MD and the SNES due to it having games on CD. Why would a U.S. parent (or even a UK parent) by their kid a console with more expensive games and with a slow burn release rate?

 

A Commodore game console would do well in Europe and would likely go crazy in the US because in the US it would have cheaper games, CD audio was overhyped, and it would have a ton of developers and would likely grap some of the western devs the Genesis would get years later earlier.

 

not to mention the American Western devs which still were cautious about putting games on Japanese consoles because of the NES the Amiga console would grab that way before the genesis did.

Edited September 8, 2018 by JaguarVision