alortegac Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 Looking to purchase 1 good U29 IC to try bringing a computer with black screen back to life. After a thorough check with logic probe and testing main ICs on my 5200 ( I do not have another 800Xl to test with), I have narrow my options to bad ROM, U30 and/or U29 delay. I have a rom and u30 on their way. But I Could not find an U29 anywhere other than Best E. I was hoping someone in this forum will sell me a good U29. Thanks a lot! Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nezgar Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 That's BASIC Rev B. For troubleshooting, the computer should run fine without it inserted. Only minor issue is the 8K RAM region will still be allocated to nothing unless you hold option on powerup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alortegac Posted September 15, 2018 Author Share Posted September 15, 2018 (edited) Nazgar, I show U5 CO61598 as OS 8k x 8 ROM Rev B and U4 as CO60302 BASIC 16k x 8 OS ROM. I am looking for a U29 Delay. CO60472. Or maybe I misunderstood your suggestion. Thanks, Al Edited September 15, 2018 by alortegac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 There are off-the-shelf delay line equivalents but no idea if a current day one exists that's a plugin or easy adaption for the Atari. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nezgar Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 Nazgar, I show U5 CO61598 as OS 8k x 8 ROM Rev B and U4 as CO60302 BASIC 16k x 8 OS ROM.s D'oh, yes that is indeed delay line.. Embarassing google-fu failure on my part there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roydea6 Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 Jumper empty socket pin 6 and pin 7 http://atariage.com/forums/topic/249405-new-4mb-ram-expansion/?p=3535338 Check if it will boot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 you want basic revision c in all Atari computers... B is for buggy, crashes and trashes... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alortegac Posted September 15, 2018 Author Share Posted September 15, 2018 (edited) I will try jumper on empty socket as suggested. Quick comment, perhaps could lead on to something else. All D lines from D0 to D7 are High instead of Pulse...accross the boad U4, U5, Pokey, etc..... Is this significant? Or could it be a symptom/confirm from bad U5 ROM, U29 or U30.? Assuming antic,gtia, cpu worked fine on a atari 5200 test. Ram is all new ics, mutiplexer are new as well. Thanks for any feedback. Edited September 15, 2018 by alortegac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 (edited) What does the display do? Most XLs will power up initially reddish brown at least 20% of the time and you'll get a click and change to black within 2 seconds. If that occurs it's a sign that the CPU should be good and that the OS Rom is at least partly working - if there's a hang after that it's probably bad Ram or select logic. A steady non-rolling display means Antic is at least able to send the VSync commands to GTIA. Rolling display can mean a failed Antic. Edited September 15, 2018 by Rybags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alortegac Posted September 15, 2018 Author Share Posted September 15, 2018 (edited) Hi! I get a brownish/black screen when I turn it on every time and all the time. No signs of any clicks, mode steps/changes, no blinking, no sounds.. I tried the jumper on pin 6-7 empty U29. No change at all. Turning a bit the Color control does not make any difference either. Edited September 15, 2018 by alortegac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alortegac Posted September 15, 2018 Author Share Posted September 15, 2018 (edited) What does the display do? Most XLs will power up initially reddish brown at least 20% of the time and you'll get a click and change to black within 2 seconds. If that occurs it's a sign that the CPU should be good and that the OS Rom is at least partly working - if there's a hang after that it's probably bad Ram or select logic. A steady non-rolling display means Antic is at least able to send the VSync commands to GTIA. Rolling display can mean a failed Antic. Antic worked fine in a 5200. Appears to be good. Gtia and cpu as well. I understand this is not the best test but all I can do with what I have.Thanks! Edited September 15, 2018 by alortegac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1050 Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 Quick comment, perhaps could lead on to something else. All D lines from D0 to D7 are High instead of Pulse...accross the boad U4, U5, Pokey, etc..... Is this significant? Or could it be a symptom/confirm from bad U5 ROM, U29 or U30.? Assuming antic,gtia, cpu worked fine on a atari 5200 test. Ram is all new ics, mutiplexer are new as well. R23-30 on the 800XL pull the data lines high so it's not unusual to see that unless you were expecting data. How can a machine function if it's not using data? It can't. Without a working U29 you have no ram or even stack for the CPU. The CPU is likely stuck doing something internal forevermore? Best is probably the only one that stocks it, so outside of killing other Atari for it there is the below circuit that is supposed to be the equivalent. I got this from across the pond from a site where they don't speak english. And I didn't save the url for it either so you could find it today. At any rate it is using one 74LS14 Hex Inverter with Schmitt Trigger Inputs plus a handful of discrete parts such as resistors and capacitors to generate time delayed signals that purportedly work as well as the stock U29. I've never built it so I've never tested it to see if it does work. I can see that it does have potential too or I never would have saved it. http://www.futurlec.com/74LS/74LS14.shtml Only thing wrong with your swap it method is the lack of a full complement of ammo to work with. It is the fastest way to find a faulty IC that there is. And almost anybody can do it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 The eventual outcome of a runaway situation is usually execution of an illegal "kill" opcode, so "The CPU is likely stuck doing somethinginternal forevermore?" is a pretty true description since the internal 6502 PLA Rom tables cause certain instructions to put the CPU into a nonrecoverable idle state https://www.pagetable.com/?p=39 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1050 Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 If you don't have phase 2 clock on pin 1 of U29 with a pulse then the problem is even more rudimentary with phase 2 clock and U29 might be an innocent here. Lack of phase 2 clock would be a bad U18, a 74LS08 AND chip. I do strongly suggest it be replaced with 74HCT08 AND chip for the better/stronger clock signal shape that this chip will provide over the LS version. HCT08 even when it's not a problem is the rule in my house. OR the lack of phase 2 clock could be a bad ANTIC U7. Short list. I see where your swapping to a 5200 should have ruled this one out entirely. Further, pins 6 and 8 of U30 need to be showing some logic state changes in order for ram to work as well. U29 is not solely responsible for no ram situation which is what you have when all data lines are high on the 800XL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 Better still, use a 74F08 . 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alortegac Posted September 16, 2018 Author Share Posted September 16, 2018 (edited) If you don't have phase 2 clock on pin 1 of U29with a pulse then the problem is even more rudimentarywith phase 2 clock and U29 might be an innocent here.Lack of phase 2 clock would be a bad U18, a 74LS08 ANDchip. I do strongly suggest it be replaced with 74HCT08AND chip for the better/stronger clock signal shapethat this chip will provide over the LS version. HCT08even when it's not a problem is the rule in my house.OR the lack of phase 2 clock could be a bad ANTIC U7.Short list.I see where your swapping to a 5200 should have ruledthis one out entirely.Further, pins 6 and 8 of U30 need to be showing somelogic state changes in order for ram to work as well.U29 is not solely responsible for no ram situationwhich is what you have when all data lines are highon the 800XL.Thank you so much for your response. I swapped U18 for a fresh IC I had in my stash. I read all U18 pins again with the probe, they are still all correct. Still no change. As I said before (I think), I have a new ROM U5 and a U30 on the way. Thanks a lot! Edited September 16, 2018 by alortegac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1050 Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 U29. U30 is just the puppet of U29. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alortegac Posted September 19, 2018 Author Share Posted September 19, 2018 Well, it is not the ROM chip or U30. I just ordered a U29 from Best. I will report back once I receive it. Thanks!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alortegac Posted September 21, 2018 Author Share Posted September 21, 2018 Thank you so much all!! Your support throughout this process has been tremendous!!! Computer with all black screen of death. Is now Alive and well!!! ....the last and final suspect was U29. And it was the sole culprit apparently. Why did it fail? I do know. All seems ok now. Thanks so much all!!! Al 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 as usual it comes down to delay line or mmu or memory... glad to see it working https://atariage.com/forums/topic/253024-co60472-delay-line/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alortegac Posted September 21, 2018 Author Share Posted September 21, 2018 (edited) Thank a lot! This is the pic. All put back together. Edited September 21, 2018 by alortegac 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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