Justin Payne Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 (edited) I've got a couple 800's. One works fine and the other doesn't so I figured I'd start to do some troubleshooting. I took out the the 3 16K carts &1 ROM board from the non-working machine and replaced all of the bare cards in my working 800. Turn it on and I get a black screen. Great, I have a bad RAM card...but which one. So, one by one I added the cards. Just an FYI. Since one 800 has bare boards and the other has the RAM/ROM in cartridges, I'm going to call that out so you'll know which RAM I am using. Put the 16K cartridge in the second slct(1st one has the ROM cart) and IT WORKS. Put the 2nd 16K cartridge in the third slot, IT WORKS Put the 3rd 16K cartridge in the 4th (and last) slot, BLACK SCREEN Remove the 16K cartridge from the 3rd slot and replace it with the 16K cartridge from the 4th slot. The forth slot is now empty. IT WORKS. Put the 16K cartridge I took out and put it in the forth slot BLACK SCREEN. Take out the 16K cartridge in the last slot and replace it with a 16K board. IT WORKS. So, I'm a little confused. I've proven that all 16K cartridge are good but the machine will not start up if I put a 16K cartridge in the last slot but putting a 16K board in the last slot is completely fine. Any ideas? Edited October 14, 2018 by Justin Payne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClausB Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 (edited) ...the machine will not start up if I put a 16K cartridge in the last slot but putting a 16K board in the last slot is completely fine. Any ideas? Try it again, BEFORE drinking the beer. Edited October 14, 2018 by ClausB 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Payne Posted October 14, 2018 Author Share Posted October 14, 2018 OK. I've taken your advice and have grabbed a Goodlife Descender IPA. Pretty hoppy, which is what I like in a beer. Try it again, AFTER drinking the beer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClausB Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 Damn you're quick. Before I could edit my mistake! Guess I need a beer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Payne Posted October 14, 2018 Author Share Posted October 14, 2018 LOL! Yeah, I get a little slower when I've had too many beers. That's when I stop working on things and start watching YouTube videos, mostly ones that don't require a lot of though. That would go in line with your advice of not drinking before testing RAM boards. Still, I was sober at the time I was testing all of the scenarios so we know inebriation isn't the issue and I'm pretty sure my steps for testing is solid. Any other ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 (edited) what you a call a cartridge is just a cased board... I would label each card and write down what's in what. a possibility would be a card with different refresh than the others... odd man out shuts you down.. the Antic chip could come into play possibly as well. it is not uncommon for cards to need to be installed in a certain order, more so with larger upgrades... I personally went with 32k cards and left last slot for Fullview card if remembering correctly. Full view was faster in 80 columns than the Atari in native 40... very strange! and was even faster when the 40 column screen was shut off. It was like having a 50 to 60 percent faster machine... sorry about that, just missing something that your post somehow reminded me of.... somewhere on these threads is a group of discussions and diagrams on why the cards need to be in what slot. the traces being attached in a fashion to attempt most cards to be in either two or three but slot 4 are a somewhat special case.... Edited October 14, 2018 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClausB Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 Were there any ROM carts in the left or right cart slots work you tested? If not, did it go to memo pad when it worked? I would try BASIC in the left cart slot and then test each RAM board/cartridge by itself in the slot behind the 10K ROM. If it comes up READY, then type ?FRE(0) and Enter. If it reports 13 or 14 thousand-ish then that RAM is likely OK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Payne Posted October 15, 2018 Author Share Posted October 15, 2018 (edited) "what you a call a cartridge is just a cased board..." Correct.That's why I said this. "Just an FYI. Since one 800 has bare boards and the other has the RAM/ROM in cartridges, I'm going to call that out so you'll know which RAM I am using." Maybe that wasn't as clear as I hoped it to bel. "a possibility would be a card with different refresh than the others... odd man out shuts you down.. the Antic chip could come into play possibly as well. it is not uncommon for cards to need to be installed in a certain order, more so with larger upgrades..." I'm not quite clear on what you mean by this so I'll need to explain further but I'll try to answer the best I can but please forgive me if it's not the answer you are looking for. So, I've confirmed that all of the RAM cards in the cartridges do work, just not all together. This machine has already had a full 48k (3 16K boards) so I know all slots are in working order. It's just when I try to use all 3 slots with the cartridges RAM cards that it goes black. If I use two cartridge RAM and one non-cartridge also works just fine. "somewhere on these threads is a group of discussions and diagrams on why the cards need to be in what slot. the traces being attached in a fashion to attempt most cards to be in either two or three but slot 4 are a somewhat special case...." That's a thread I'd be very interested in reading. "Were there any ROM carts in the left or right cart slots work you tested? If not, did it go to memo pad when it worked?" Yes, actually, there was. I had a Ultimate Cart in the left slot. I would hope that that wouldn't be an issue but I'm glad you mentioned it. I'll give it a shot w/o it. Thx. Edited October 15, 2018 by Justin Payne 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nezgar Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 I wonder if one of the RAM boards was modified to be 32K. If it's still inside the shell, it may not be obvious without opening it up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 That's a thought - does the last slot still get the passthru if an earlier one is modded for 32K? My suspicion is either that or the slot itself has a bent or bad contact or a signal isn't getting through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geister Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 I'd open the closed ram boards also. Look for mods and possibly mis-matched ram. Like -12 mixed with -15, or even -20. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 He seems to indicate though that the Ram modules are fine, it's just the last Ram slot that's the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geister Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 The distance of the slot on the bus can cause timing issues if the refresh rate of the chips is marginal. I had cards on the PC that would work fine in one slot and not in another. The only reason I could see was bus timing issues affecting marginal chips. This was back when memory cards on the PC were populated with individual chips. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 (edited) solution just to get both working is simple enough... machine A- gets 16k carts in slots 2 and 3 with 16k card in 4 machine B- gets 16k cart in slot 2 and 16k cards in 3 and 4 both machines should would... then it's time for a memory tester and exerciser from one of the threads in the forums.. and run a bunch of thing to see how they work... You can of course look at each memory module to find the differences and drill down on the why of it if you like.. Edited October 15, 2018 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Payne Posted October 15, 2018 Author Share Posted October 15, 2018 Nezgar - I'll open them up to see if that is the case. Rybags - The slot looks fine. I thought the same thing as well but no, they look great. I also looked at the contacts on the boards. Looks great as well __The Doctor__ - Yes, that IS a solution but I don't think that is the only issue with my broken 800. When I turn that one on, the screen is all wonky (Best word I can use to describe it). I need to pick up a logic probe and check all of the chips. Geister - Well, I did exchange the board in the 4th slot and put it in the 3rd and then put the board that was in the 3rd slot and put it in the 4th. Neither of those scenarios worked so if it is a timing issue, it's an issue with both of those RAM boards. As for cards in a PC, that's a whole different beast. You could have had an IRQ conflict. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Bad 800 is wonky with full deck of good cards? Please check to see if both 800's have the cartridge port modification done... This would show some wire to traces connecting to cart port... It sounds like you are loading from cartridge, yes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Payne Posted October 15, 2018 Author Share Posted October 15, 2018 Bad 800 is wonky with full deck of good cards? Please check to see if both 800's have the cartridge port modification done... This would show some wire to traces connecting to cart port... It sounds like you are loading from cartridge, yes? Yes. I had an Ultimate cart in there. I'll at least check to make sure the one I have apart has had the modification done. BTW: What was the point of this modification? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Payne Posted October 16, 2018 Author Share Posted October 16, 2018 So, I'm looking at all RAM cartridge and if I were to open them to look at the boards I would have to damage the labels. Unless someone was really good at opening these up w/o damaging the labels, I doubt these have been opened ever so I don't suspect that these have any more than 16KB in them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) gentle penetrating heat and constant slow pressure is the only way to lift labels without damage.. I don't remember if it need damage the labels to disassemble, The boards were all taken out of carts to prevent heat from damaging them... later we shipped them that way.. not cased... it kept the machine cooler and damage free in all environments (it also lowered costs). If you took it in for service you generally got it back with the cards uncased. Edited October 16, 2018 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Payne Posted October 16, 2018 Author Share Posted October 16, 2018 Yeah. I heard about the heat issue. Sucks because I do like the look of the cartridge version of the RAM/ROM cards. Of course, who is actually looking at the stuff when it's in the machine. I'll try to do some further testing this weekend and hope to start troubleshooting the 800 itself by the end of this month so the issue with the RAM isn't too important right now. I just figured it was a very strange problem and though maybe someone might have run into this already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) Do you have any other method to load with other than the ultimate cart? all the newer storage devices generally have issues without cartridge port modifications.. I was about to write up the simple mod but there is more than one way to skin this cat... there are a few fix methods but 2 popular ones are listed here I think... https://www.wudsn.com/index.php/productions-atari800/tools/thecart/atari-800-fix Edited October 16, 2018 by _The Doctor__ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Payne Posted October 18, 2018 Author Share Posted October 18, 2018 Do you have any other method to load with other than the ultimate cart? all the newer storage devices generally have issues without cartridge port modifications.. I was about to write up the simple mod but there is more than one way to skin this cat... there are a few fix methods but 2 popular ones are listed here I think... https://www.wudsn.com/index.php/productions-atari800/tools/thecart/atari-800-fix Yes. I have some other carts that I can give a shot. Would be disappointing that this would happen with the Ultimate Cart but not devastating. I'll give that a shot this weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) if other regular carts work and disk work then it's just a fix up and you are golden Edited October 18, 2018 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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