ubersaurus Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Chalk this one up to new to me, as I was completely unaware that such a console was ever in the development stages. Earlier today a bunch of documents from Mattel's Dave Chandler's memorial website were put up on archive.org, including one regarding a meeting between Mattel and North American Philips in March 1983. Apparently the two companies were talking about information/technology sharing on their at-the-time confidential Intellivision IV and Odyssey 4 projects. Not only does this essentially confirm NAP was working on one, but it includes some basic specs for the machine. You can see for yourself here: https://archive.org/details/19830325NorthAmericanPhilipsMeetings/page/n25 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Who would gain what on cooperation at that stage? I assume Philips had a lot of production capacity, in case Mattel needed a such partner and then would listen to what joining forces would do against Atari and Coleco. Now Philips was (and probably still is) a very large company, and the notes specifically mention the North American division, essentially Magnavox I presume. To put things into perspective, during 1982-83, Philips was working with French manufacturer Thomson on an European home computer standard but as nothing happened, Philips joined the Japanese MSX standard and released the VG-8000 in 1984. Now video games and home computers are two different markets, and what happens in Europe and what happens in North America were two different markets. I assume the Videopac section were busy over in Europe too, not to mention the VG-5000 home computer also released in October 1984. Previously I have mentioned a what-if scenario in which Mattel never released the Aquarius, but instead just like Philips had joined the MSX standard. With all those connections in place, it hadn't been entirely unthinkable, though of course that story has absolutely nothing to do with the Odyssey... unless of course the ^4 would have been a MSX computer as well, with or without Mattel. That is a variant I have never thought about. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Wow, that's neat -- Philips and Mattel were sharing (limited, high-level) notes with each other. It could just be my lack of engineering expertise, but the legal agreement between the two groups seems a lot more developed and mature than the hastily sketched system diagram. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hwlngmad Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Crazy! However, when you think about that RCA had future console plans beyond the Studio II (Studios III, IV, and V), then this is not too shocking, but damn surprising that's for sure. Chalk this one up to new to me, as I was completely unaware that such a console was ever in the development stages. Earlier today a bunch of documents from Mattel's Dave Chandler's memorial website were put up on archive.org, including one regarding a meeting between Mattel and North American Philips in March 1983. Apparently the two companies were talking about information/technology sharing on their at-the-time confidential Intellivision IV and Odyssey 4 projects. Not only does this essentially confirm NAP was working on one, but it includes some basic specs for the machine. You can see for yourself here: https://archive.org/details/19830325NorthAmericanPhilipsMeetings/page/n25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LS_Dracon Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) So cool! Thanks for sharing it! Odyssey 4 System Specs : 4bpp background capability (15 colors - Master System like) 8 Sprites 2bpp 16x16 pixels (3 colors each, NES like) with support for RLE (Zoom/Scaling support?) 12 bit color palete (4k possible colors - Game Gear like) Variable screen resolution - up to 640,480 (Dreamcast resolution) Edited October 18, 2018 by LS_Dracon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masschamber Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 I wonder if the 1 MB is rmaximum rom size, ram or maybe address space? regardless any of those would be huge even a few years later for a console Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LS_Dracon Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Yeah, I think it is about the ROM limit without bankswitch - "8Mb" (megabit) cart. Not bad. I wonder which processor it is going to use... It refer to "Hitachi" but I don't know if it is the processor or video chip. If it is the processor, it should be a variant of Motorola 6809 (Vectrex processor). It is a competent 8bit processor with multiplication capability, a step up from Z80 or 6502. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opcode Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 So cool! Thanks for sharing it! Odyssey 4 System Specs : 4bpp background capability (15 colors - Master System like) 8 Sprites 2bpp 16x16 pixels (3 colors each, NES like) with support for RLE (Zoom/Scaling support?) 12 bit color palete (4k possible colors - Game Gear like) Variable screen resolution - up to 640,480 (Dreamcast resolution) Really interesting. RLE is a sort of simple compression algorithm. Did they have a target date for the O4? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LS_Dracon Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 (edited) RLE is useful for display large graphics and save rom, as you can stretch an image horizontally, specifying the color and how many pixels in a row it should draw before pick a new color. If you increase "how many pixels" every frame, you make the scale-in effect. This is also a common drawing method for flat shaded polygons. And for quick and simple data compression. According the doc, O4 was going to be released around 84/85. Edited October 27, 2018 by LS_Dracon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opcode Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 RLE is useful for display large graphics and save rom, as you can stretch an image horizontally, specifying the color and how many pixels in a row it should draw before pick a new color. If you increase "how many pixels" every frame, you make the scale-in effect. This is also a common drawing method for flat shaded polygons. And for quick and simple data compression. According the doc, O4 was going to be released around 84/85. 8 sprites was a little too little for 84/85, but otherwise pretty good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubersaurus Posted October 29, 2018 Author Share Posted October 29, 2018 8 sprites was a little too little for 84/85, but otherwise pretty good. Isn't 8 sprites the limit for the NES and SMS? I know the PC Engine got 16 sprites per scanline but that was in 1987. 8 sprites per scanline in 84 would be pretty standard. Now if they mean 8 for the whole screen... that would be a weird move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatPix Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 Philips was working with French manufacturer Thomson on an European home computer standard Do you have more infos on that? I never, ever heard of that anywhere. I know Thomson released almost confidentially a computer before the TO/MO series. Could it be linked to that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 I found that information here, take it with as much salt as you need: https://www.msx.org/wiki/Philips_VG-8000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatPix Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 Hmm, I see. It would be strange that it happen to be compatible with a Japanese standard, isn't it? I always heard that the VG-8000 was a cheaped-down MSX. Anyway, unlike that, we have proof on the Videopac 2 or Odyssey 4. It's funny to see that they didn't learned from Atari's failure and planned to work on the next generation of systems when the previous one barely hit the shelves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 I didn't understand that page as the VG-8000 was the fruit of a failed cooperation, more that if work on a joint venture failed, Philips looked to the far east instead of next neighbour in the south. Although it really doesn't matter in this discussion, if the two had any intent of creating an European computer standard, one would have thought several of the British manufacturers to have been invited too, like Sinclair, Acorn, even Tangerine/Oric, perhaps Dragon Data, as well as various other computer manufacturers across the continent. Two manufactuers may have a cooperation, but it will take a lot for them to form an open standard. That is what is amazing about the MSX, how ASCII Corp managed to get so many competing manufacturers on board the same project, but I suppose they all had NEC, Sharp and perhaps Fujitsu to challenge and realized they didn't stand a chance one by one. Anyway, wasn't the Intellivision IV quite a bit more advanced according to old documents than what Magnavox/Philips may have planned with the Odyssey^4? Unless they were looking to join the two projects, I still wonder who would have gained. I understand that Mattel put quite a bit of work into getting the KCS ready to ship which it never really did and they released the ECS in order to avoid further fines. We have the Odyssey^3 that never was released in the US but was sold as Videopac+ G7400 in Europe, so it is not like neither of them waited for the warehouses to empty before planning the next step. When it came to software licenses, developers etc the two may have been in the same boat. I think around then the need for licensed arcade conversions and alike was becoming more and more important, something Coleco already made a big deal about with their Colecovision released in August 1982. I know both Intellivision and Odyssey^2 "enjoyed" a small amount of third party software, which of course they may have tied even closer with a strong console in late 1984 if the market still existed. I can't help but think about Hi-Toro as well, founded in September 1982 and working on the Lorraine games machine during 1983. Now Jay Miner and the others had just left Atari and probably wanted to do their own thing, but I wonder how much was bubbling about what various companies were sketching on. ISTR that the Intellivision IV also was planned to be based on the 68000, and if Magnavox/Philips had manufacturing capacities, they may just as well have been interested in investing/supporting the Lorraine project instead of developing their own Hitachi 6309 based system, depending on which one looked to be most cost effective for the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatPix Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 I got interested in the Intelli IV when there was that project to make an expansion module that would live the original Intelli the same power, and the Intell IV was quite beefy; I don't remember everythng but it wouldn't have paled facing the NES; the biggest issue would have probably been the use of the CP-1610 uncommon CPU instead of something more common, Z80 or 65c02, which would have slowed development. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubersaurus Posted October 30, 2018 Author Share Posted October 30, 2018 If you look around that document they have a fair amount about the Intellivision IV as well. It does indeed sound like they were aiming for a lot of the same things, but the Intellivision Iv had that proprietary MAGIC chip in it too. Maybe they did want to try and merge the projects or share technology/distribution networks or something? I know that someone is trying to track down some of the other names in the document (since Chandler obviously has passed away), hopefully that'll shed some light if it succeeds. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSG Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 If one came out today I would be interested in it, but not one of those flashback type consoles. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 Unless signficantly more information emerges, it probably will be very sketchy trying to implement or recreate an Odyssey^4, not to mention there won't exist any software to run on it so everything needs to be written. More or less inventing a brand new format with limitations according to what they were aiming for in the early-mid 80's. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opcode Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insertclevernamehere Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 Serendipity be praised! I don't normally visit here in the Odyssey pages but just thought I'd take a gander and here you are with clue 5 (you must've seen my comment on the Omni elsewhere). Ok, so I'm off by one number. Apparently there's already a very limited release Odyssey 3. Well I'll say no more. I don't want to spoil your surprise to everyone. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 On 10/29/2018 at 6:43 PM, CatPix said: Do you have more infos on that? I never, ever heard of that anywhere. I know Thomson released almost confidentially a computer before the TO/MO series. Could it be linked to that? I stumbled upon another reference, the Wall Street Journal in January 1984, though it says that Philips and Thomson would have an agreement about video games (Thomson partnering with Brandt to make Jopac games) which is a little different than setting a standard for a new home computer. Perhaps the talks had started off like that and moved into making Videopac compatible games instead? https://www.the-nextlevel.com/odyssey2/articles/atariphilips/ Also it'd be interesting if Philips and Mattel had meetings in March 1983 about possible cooperation, and then Philips was in talks with Atari by the end of the same year about possible cooperation. It would seem like Philips tried to pull one American manufacturer of video games at a time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatPix Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 That would be interesting. Jopac ultimately ended being just the Brandt brand for Videopac+ games. It's possible that Philips and Thomson tried to see if they could co-develop a computer system and used the Videopac+ to see what level of cooperation they could get. It's most likely that Philips got more interested in selling MSX computer, which, being already their own standard, could'nt be "improved" by Thomson so they could't sell it to the French State under their own condition and control (man, France having MSX computer at school? like the USSR did? That would have been epic). Thanks for the information, it's very interesting to see what things happened back then! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubersaurus Posted December 2, 2019 Author Share Posted December 2, 2019 Forgot to note this, but last year Earl Green did a podcast about the death of the Odyssey3 and how it links to the Odyssey4/Intellivision IV crossover project. He has a little timeline of events implemented on the page for the podcast, too. http://www.thelogbook.com/selectgame/2018/10/21/303-odyssey3/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Spear Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 On 10/17/2018 at 11:40 AM, Flojomojo said: Wow, that's neat -- Philips and Mattel were sharing (limited, high-level) notes with each other. It could just be my lack of engineering expertise, but the legal agreement between the two groups seems a lot more developed and mature than the hastily sketched system diagram. I wonder if the legal battle that Mattel lost to Magnavox earlier is also wrapped up in that. Hmmm. https://digitalcommons.law.uga.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1035&context=jipl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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