+slx Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Since it provides it's own driver which gets downloaded at boot time, it can work totally different to the 850 under the hood. Isn't that the case only if no bootable floppy is present? If yes, there would need to be drivers for all programs that don't rely on the built-in driver. An easy-to-use SIO to RS-232 unit would be great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+David_P Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Cart port has no interrupt signalling, making it problematic for a driver - meaning your driver will instead have to conduct frequent polling. Not insurmountable, but if we want to Build A Better Serial Interface, we should try to avoid inherent problems like that. Conceptually, treating it like a "black box" on SIO that behaves properly - like Sanny suggested upthread - would be a better solution. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanny Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Isn't that the case only if no bootable floppy is present? If yes, there would need to be drivers for all programs that don't rely on the built-in driver. If no bootable floppy is present, or it gets downloaded later in (e.g. via AUTORUN.SYS in DOS25). From the SIO sound it appears that also SpartaDOS's RS232.COM just downloads the builtin driver. IDK, if there are programs which use their own driver, or if always the downloaded driver gets used. If programs are using their own driver, it could (I guess) still be made backward compatible. Means this stupid "concurrent mode". But it wouldn't be real concurrent mode, the device would still do its RS232 handshaking and only serve the contents of the input buffer in concurrent mode. regards, chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 (edited) But, But... What will I ever do without my teletype port and my old printer that prints so fast, the roll fed paper shoots up into the air when it exits the VW bug sized printer? (I never really had one). David some people still access the internet that way http://rtty.com/itty/ see also your Atari 8 bit can do this too Edited October 31, 2018 by _The Doctor__ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 cart = partial pbi... pass thru would of course be possible Yes, a partial PBI that is available to all Atari computers including the 400/800/1200/65XE*/XEGS...half the models out there. *sum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 (edited) If no bootable floppy is present, or it gets downloaded later in (e.g. via AUTORUN.SYS in DOS25). From the SIO sound it appears that also SpartaDOS's RS232.COM just downloads the builtin driver. IDK, if there are programs which use their own driver, or if always the downloaded driver gets used. If programs are using their own driver, it could (I guess) still be made backward compatible. Means this stupid "concurrent mode". But it wouldn't be real concurrent mode, the device would still do its RS232 handshaking and only serve the contents of the input buffer in concurrent mode. regards, chris yes, there are terminals and such that use built in code to access the 850... there are also R:bins to that effect as well... nothing downloads from the 850 at all... we only use the two polling types with the 850 to trigger the download and most drivers are derived from it. there is more to do here.... or not if it's lost to time and no one can figure it out... Edited October 31, 2018 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 An easy-to-use SIO to RS-232 unit would be great! Wasn't that already done with the original SIO2PC designs like the one I still use that I installed in my 1050 nearly 20 years ago? Available for about 25 years? Schematics to build your own available? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+slx Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Wasn't that already done with the original SIO2PC designs like the one I still use that I installed in my 1050 nearly 20 years ago? Available for about 25 years? Schematics to build your own available? Does SIO2PC allow hooking up to a modem? I always thought it only works with a PC at the other end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanny Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 yes, there are terminals and such that use built in code to access the 850... there are also R:bins to that effect as well... they do not download from the 850 at all... Do these programs work with a P:R:? (Disclaimer: don't know about this device). we only use the two polling types with the 850 to trigger the download and most drivers are derived from it. there is more to do here.... or not if it's lost to time and no one can figure it out... Sorry, not my native language. I don't really understand what you want to say :-) regards, chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 (edited) Does SIO2PC allow hooking up to a modem? I always thought it only works with a PC at the other end. I just mentioned it because what you described sounded just like it...but I don't see why not, the APE system on the PC uses an R: handler through it. But probably not a direct connect to a modem, might have to have something else in-between still...but then we graduated to USB and blue-tooth SIO2PC devices, and I've sort of been wondering in the back of my mind through this whole thread why we want to make a device that reverts back to RS232 ports at all. I think it was mentioned about a true multi i/o with modern ports earlier...or similar through SIO with divisor 0 speeds... Edited October 31, 2018 by Gunstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tschak909 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 You can use an SIO2USB as an R-Verter. I did this while developing PLATOTerm to test the R-Verter handler compatibility. The SIO2USB shows up as a serial device, and you can e.g. point tcpser to it: tcpser -d /dev/ttyUSB0 -s 1200 -i "&K4" #xon/xoff -Thom 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 (edited) By the way, I've been having a discussion with someone who is in the early stages of planning/designing a network box for networking many Atari's together like LAN and what the advantages and disadvantages of all types depending on what I/O port is used, from PBI/Cart to SIO to the controller ports as even a possibility. Anyway we were discussing the speeds that modern devices obtain through the cart port and SIO port, but neither of us could find any information on the actual speeds possible throught the PBI. I found numbers for Multi i/o and BB devices for RS323 and average speed range in Kilobytes per second, depending on old-school drives attached, but nothing about the PBI buss's potential speeds. Anyone know? We were looking for Kbps rates to compare to 126Kbps SIO divisor 0 or the MyIDE 2 MyBIOS 4.9 is stable at speeds upto 128Kbps through the "partial PBI" cart port. How fast is the IDE+ 2.0 able to load software for example? Edited November 1, 2018 by Gunstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tschak909 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 PBI runs at bus speed, so you'll have a theoretical max of ... 360KB/s ? (somebody pls correct me) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidMil Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 some people still access the internet that way http://rtty.com/itty/ see also your Atari 8 bit can do this too How in the name of God did you find this? I reminds me of high school (in 1970) when we had a connection to the single computer that the school district had downtown, and all we had was a keyboard a printer and a modem. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+ZuluGula Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 At some point, Atari offered 850 in kit version http://atariage.com/forums/topic/272181-atari-850-bare-boards/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathy Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 Hello guys (m/f) Imagine a device with 64k input/output buffers which autonomously handles all the RS232 details. The serial line would be disconnected from the SIO bus, and the computer would just read/write the device's buffers. That reminded me of Rudolf Cornelissen's IOCOMP V3. (You have to scroll down a bit) Yes, it's a very crude design, but based on the 850 and can work stand alone. Some of its features might be incorporated into the new device, although the Motorola MC6802 should be replaced with something more modern or more "Atari". And the device only has 8kB of RAM.... Sincerely Mathy PS I never used the device, but it should be here somewhere (probably in a box in the attic). 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathy Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 (edited) Hello Gunstar By the way, I've been having a discussion with someone who is in the early stages of planning/designing a network box for networking many Atari's together like LAN and what the advantages and disadvantages of all types depending on what I/O port is used, from PBI/Cart to SIO to the controller ports as even a possibility. Would that be one box for all Atari's or one box per Atari? BTW the biggest advantage of the SIO port is that all 8 bit Atari's have one. If you want to use the cartridge port or the parallel bus interface, you'd be in the way of other stuff that might be in either port. Sincerely Mathy Edited November 1, 2018 by Mathy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Ripdubski Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 I am considering taking a dive into recreating a mini-version of the Atari 850. I'm not that familiar with the 850, never having owned one in the day and not really ever working with one either. I have some documentation on it and the rom code. Specifically it will have 1 parallel and 1 serial port. Maybe two versions - one with industry standard wired DB9 and DB25 ports and one with Atari wired DB9 and DB15 ports. What are the strengths and weaknesses? I would rather see an SIO to Ethernet LPT or WiFi LPT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle22 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 Why don't we just use the signals provided on SIO? Use Motor Control (output) to stop the modem when the computer is busy or doing SIO. Use Proceed or Interrupt (incoming) to generate an IRQ to let the computer know that the modem wants the computer to halt. These signals could be multiplexed to provide all (or enough) control lines to make a proper RS-232 interface. I would like to see a simple R:Verter type interface with the proper handler. This could be expanded to include a joystick port plug that would provide even more lines, but that would (most likely) not be necessary. I believe SIO (if correctly programmed) can provide all the necessary signals for proper high speed modem operation. Use the other input to SIO (Proceed / Interrupt) for RI or CD, (Actually PIA inputs) or whatever works best. Most modern BBS's and terminal software don't care about RI and CD. I'm running Pro! on an 850 at 9600 baud with no problems. I just with we could get the hardware handshaking functioning properly, then we could go FASTER on an R:Verter type device. This is possible with SIO. To get the FULL RS-232 set, it will require more I/O lines. But, after looking at all this, I think a 'normal' solution could be had using only SIO. PoKey is faster than the IBM PC serial chip that maxed out at 115200. We are more than fast enough. This is not that complicated. It just needs to be done. Sure, a new device would be great, but in this day and age, we need full flow control in hardware. This is easier that you think.Just make a Super R:Verter with appropriate R:handler, and it's all good. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 (edited) Hello Gunstar Would that be one box for all Atari's or one box per Atari? BTW the biggest advantage of the SIO port is that all 8 bit Atari's have one. If you want to use the cartridge port or the parallel bus interface, you'd be in the way of other stuff that might be in either port. Sincerely Mathy I do believe he is looking into both ways, one central box or each with their own and even talk of an 800 just used as a hub too, with it's 4-joystick ports if he goes the controller port route. And yes, even though the PBI and cartridge ports might be faster, he is concerned about blocking PBI and cart ports. And actually, the computers he wants to network are 800's and 1200XL's without the PBI anyway, but if it's a one-box design then he's considering that one box connected to a 1200XL with a PBI upgrade as the main server and go from that with either SIO or controller port output possibly to all others on the network. The 800 cart port is a difficult proposition too, but we were discussing all possibilities. In any case, this isn't about making a network box to sell, but just one proto-type for his own personal network of a bunch of 1200XL's and maybe an 800 thrown in, ultimately as a big BBS system I think, with online multi-player games. Something not unlike the old Atari only 'Games Computers Play' (GCP) network that was advertised in old Antic and Analog magazines. That's not some kind of hint that it will be GCP back up and running, just something hopefully like it but much more advanced. But now I may be going out-of-bounds with repeating all of this at this point, I'm not sure he wants the cat out of the bag yet, hence my not naming names, etc. Edited November 1, 2018 by Gunstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+David_P Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 Networking via joystick ports? Tom Hudson wrote about doing something similar for the ANALOG TCS, using a collection of 400s. After using two joystick ports for a CORVUS interface, and a third one to implement write access control to the CORVUS, they used the final port to permit chat between the various clients logged in. You can read about it on his website at: http://analog.klanky.com/funstuff.htm#TCS EDIT: I reread the article, and removed the reference to 48K 400s... they were 16K machines. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 pass thru connectors exist on cartridges, pbi cards (ECI and XL), and other devices... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nezgar Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 I appreciate the offer. In the event that it turns out to be a 'MCU' that needs to be read, are you willing to hazard harm to it? Without that the only thing I could do would be to signal trace the board and reproduce schematics. A board could be made, but the user would have to salvage the 'MCU' from an original board to use it. With a rom dump of the MCU I could devise substitute circuitry. If the other thread trying to identify the MCU results in some confidence and a method can be devised to somehow dump the mask ROM, paving a path to reimaged hardware... that may be a worthwhile sacrifice.... And something new that can then go back into the old box I just posted some high res pictures of the PCB there too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarland Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 (edited) If it's elegant and fast, SIO is okay, but if given a choice I'd rather PBI or ECI. I'd like Ethernet as much as serial/parallel. Wireless is probably easier still. That removes the need for physical connectors and that makes the case easier to make or 3d print. Either wireless or wired, virtual serial and parallel connections could be directed to telnet/SSH or wireless printers accordingly. Also could include some sort of network driver support as a 'freebie' since it's already doing wireless Ethernet. I'm not familiar with A8 on ethernet as far as existing software or drivers. Another dial method could be implemented to create a virtual 'hard physical link' between two machines that would not hang up but would be more or less permanently established even when power cycled. So for example lets say R2 is a virtual null modem to your other Atari or a friend's machine across the country.... So ATDN<ipaddress> for Attention Dial Nullmodem or something like that. If ATDN isn't already used I forget now. Or ATNC for 'Attention null connection'. What about an upgrade under Pokey or PIA as another option? It's not convenient but every A8 has one. Could be done as a ribbon cable to PCB to allow more installation flexibility. Edited November 1, 2018 by Sugarland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropcheck Posted November 1, 2018 Author Share Posted November 1, 2018 You also have the cartridge port. -Thom Naw...... Not really practical, particularly for an 800XL. I'm not saying it couldn't, but PBI would be far more versatile and faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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