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PWMish sound in a tracker

pokey tracker TMC raster

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#26 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:28 AM

oh emkay, just show us some of your excellent tunes using the techniques and let him look at your files with a note where to look etc... That will likely give much understanding. cool stuff.


Edited by _The Doctor__, Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:29 AM.


#27 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:26 PM

 
BTW. Music ProTracker is interesting alternative as well. In addition to pokey sounds, samples can be used too. Old one, but still impressive.

Me forces often Miker to use it.

https://youtu.be/RZ_s4n7S-a8

Edited by Heaven/TQA, Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:28 PM.


#28 makary OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:02 PM

Me forces often Miker to use it.

 

 

Right. I know, I keep an eye on your works guys.

 

I think I've got quite reliable and effective way to convert .wavs into .smps. I mean the key point of the process, that is choosing the right resampling algorithms. You know to keep the best of the initial sound when played in MPT. I hope I'll share some sample sets in the near future. 



#29 R0ger OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:53 PM

And why does it work in 4x speed ?

 

Sadly it does not. Here is example: I have instrument using 15kHz mode, I'm switching 0 frequency and the note frequency as fast as possible. I have RMT speed set to 4 times per frame (PAL). That means RMT evaluates instrument command every 0.005s, and the pattern should repeat after 0.01s.

 

On the left side of the screenshot you can see the instrument with note C4. That's reasonable fast, and will flip several times between the RMT calls. You see 1.5 of the wave, and then there is expected frequency switch to 15kHz. Note the spacing of the pattern is indeed 0.01s.

 

On the right side it's the same instrument, but this time the note is C1. Even if the zero frequency (15kHz) is set at the same moments, every 0.1s, as in the previous case, the counter will not flip, and will not load the new value, so the frequency change is ignored. With tone C1 the frequency change will succeed every other attempt, and the pattern repeats after 0.02s.

 

Different tone will give different patterns, and it's basically uncontrollable situation.

 

But you made me realize one mistake. That 'more than 1 NTSC frame' applies for the whole wave. But the flip happens twice during that time.

So the 0 frequency has to be set for half of the frame on PAL. In other words, using 2 instrument commands per frame should get you basically the best possible results. On 15kHz that is.

 

test.png


Edited by R0ger, Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:57 PM.


#30 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:19 PM

Sadly it does not.


OK. I never checked it on a real machine. So I got the 32 cycle switch from someone who tested it there.
But, if it is that timer depending, the software could switch both channels to 1.79MHz to do that "filter start".

#31 R0ger OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:48 PM

OK. I never checked it on a real machine. So I got the 32 cycle switch from someone who tested it there.
But, if it is that timer depending, the software could switch both channels to 1.79MHz to do that "filter start".

 

That's more like it ! But I think the 1 frame is not big problem. The tracker could simply start the note 1 frame sooner, to get the real attack right. 



#32 makary OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:14 PM

@Heaven

 

here is another MPT tune example. I was just testing some alternative frequency tables for 15 kHz mode and different sample conversion tools. Kick, snare and bongos are taken from FL Studio as far as I remember:

 

https://soundcloud.c...odkarpacka-nuta

 

XEX, SAP and source files included.

Attached Files



#33 R0ger OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:04 PM

We were analyzing it with PG when you have released it. I even ripped it so I could load it into MPT, and check how you've done it. :-)

Very well done !


Edited by R0ger, Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:06 PM.


#34 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:50 PM

@Heaven
 
here is another MPT tune example. I was just testing some alternative frequency tables for 15 kHz mode and different sample conversion tools. Kick, snare and bongos are taken from FL Studio as far as I remember:
 
https://soundcloud.c...odkarpacka-nuta
 
XEX, SAP and source files included.


Very nice!

#35 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:24 PM

We were analyzing it with PG when you have released it. I even ripped it so I could load it into MPT, and check how you've done it. :-)
Very well done !


That's where the world gets divided ;)
4 Channels, even a digi voice used, but where is the music? It's an interesting arrangement, but there is no melodic part.
Same with development tools. Instead of doing the "needed" stuff, like a fully working PC Tracker, they found the solution in using an obsolete tracker on the real machine, and tell to the world how "new" this is. But it is the re invented wheel ... on and on... and POKEY music still stucks in a world where no other want to have a listen to it.

#36 R0ger OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:38 PM

Ok .. I'm adding 'make sure Emkay can't use it' to feature list for new tracker :-D

PS. just kidding, Emkay will emkay .. such is life ..



#37 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:46 PM

Ok .. I'm adding 'make sure Emkay can't use it' to feature list for new tracker :-D
PS. just kidding, Emkay will emkay .. such is life ..


Yeah. Seems there exists a RMT 1.30 hidden from the surface.
There is also the rule that people tend to fly in circles, avoiding to get the point ;)

#38 makary OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:43 PM

Ooh, I remember this guy. I think I don't see his posts so I don't get the context.



#39 R0ger OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:20 PM

Ooh, I remember this guy. I think I don't see his posts so I don't get the context.

 

Nothing important. He's weird. But he's Atarian as well. He even makes music for Pokey time to time. So he can't be all that bad. I guess ? :-)



#40 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:31 PM

Ooh, I remember this guy. I think I don't see his posts so I don't get the context.

If you don't see his posts, he might be set in your preferences on the forum to be ignored... you might see a link saying read anyway tucked in spots.. click and you should see him



#41 makary OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:02 PM

Right, I've sorted this out. Thanks! I've been digging into some old pokey threads the other day and filtered out some content I suppose.

 

I'm far from judging anyone really. Cheers!



#42 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:25 PM

If you don't see his posts, he might be set in your preferences on the forum to be ignored... you might see a link saying read anyway tucked in spots.. click and you should see him


If he can read my posts or not, doesn't change his recognition. I'd always prefer people put themselves away, so silly discussions were not going on.
The "context" he also never will understand, like some other of "those". But the "context" really is that easy and simple, if someone wants to get it right.
Possibly, it's too much to think about, that if all goods and bads of the POKEY chip can be gathered into a PC POKEY tracker that also allows to edit music like a usual Tracker is offering. So people, who don't have the slightest clues about POKEY could have fast results when doing a 1st try there.
To say "hey, buy an original machine and fucking learn to do the stuff there" is not everyone's , if you understand.
Accidently looking (again) toward the C64 scene, most advanced games get developed with PC tools only. Even if none of the most participants have ever seen a real C64.

But , it's easier to have a look at that "bad emkay guy" ;)

#43 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:51 PM

But a8 scene lacks coders doing a PC tracker with understanding POKEY.

Or more with taking all possibilities into account and code from scratch.

Edited by Heaven/TQA, Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:53 PM.


#44 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:04 PM

But a8 scene lacks coders doing a PC tracker with understanding POKEY.


That's right.
That's also the cause for the need of people doing the "best" using the available stuff.
What's missing till today is particular that style of using a digi channels for basses, and the software controlled hardware PWM that I propose since decades as "Hardsynth" , for doing the best possible sounding music on the Atari.
There ARE multi platform Trackers, but they don't seem to see a cause for adding POKEY support. I'd bet, it's all about that they don't "understand" what's going on.

Edited by emkay, Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:08 PM.


#45 makary OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:10 PM

If he can read my posts or not, doesn't change his recognition. I'd always prefer people put themselves away, so silly discussions were not going on.
The "context" he also never will understand, like some other of "those". But the "context" really is that easy and simple, if someone wants to get it right.
Possibly, it's too much to think about, that if all goods and bads of the POKEY chip can be gathered into a PC POKEY tracker that also allows to edit music like a usual Tracker is offering. So people, who don't have the slightest clues about POKEY could have fast results when doing a 1st try there.
To say "hey, buy an original machine and fucking learn to do the stuff there" is not everyone's , if you understand.
Accidently looking (again) toward the C64 scene, most advanced games get developed with PC tools only. Even if none of the most participants have ever seen a real C64.

But , it's easier to have a look at that "bad emkay guy" ;)

 

I don't like your attitude dude. You're crossing the borders and starting to insult others with this 'it's too much to think' etc. because of... your vision of Pokey developement??? You kidding me???



#46 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:19 PM

I don't like your attitude dude. You're crossing the borders and starting to insult others with this 'it's too much to think' etc. because of... your vision of Pokey developement??? You kidding me???


You kidding me?

#47 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:47 PM

btw:

A more than 10 year old edit... recorded by Analmux for me from a real Atari.




Back then, the old POKEY library was only available..

#48 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:22 PM

.xex?



#49 makary OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:24 PM

You kidding me?

 

No I'm not at all. Don't cross the borders when sharing your views. It's pretty simple.



#50 R0ger OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:46 PM

But a8 scene lacks coders doing a PC tracker with understanding POKEY.

Or more with taking all possibilities into account and code from scratch.

 

I think I have enough experience to do it, and more than few ideas. But such project will take lot of time, don't expect results soon. I don't even plan to start any time soon.







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