Improved Atari TOS versions available

[leech]

It would be nice to not go off topic.

And what I did is not that kind of TOS replacing . Even comparing this with EmuTOS is bad idea. Complete different approach, very different aims and ideas how to make it more user friendly and support for new ways of storage.

Does user base size really matter ?

So, I will say clearly: This is not TOS replacement, this is TOS improving. Keeping it's original design, fashion, and fixing some not good solutions (FAT16), adding new features, while maintaining original RAM layout, way of booting from disks and so on - yes, mostly in purpose of good SW compatibility. EmuTOS will be never much SW compatible with their current "we do all according to TOS DOCs" approach. + despite all bad what I said about TOS and it's flaws, it is done on high level - those programmers at DR knew something. Disk code is where it is still much better than in EmuTOS , and VDI ...

Yeah, that was within the same scope of what the new AmigaOS was, basically they just updated a bunch of their libraries, added better CPU support and larger disk handling.

 

Not sure if some of those things are possible within the constraints of 192KB, but fixing storage limitations is a huge benefit.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

I updated main page about: http://atari.8bitchip.info/tosimav.html

Whole idea about this is to keep main concept and features, look of original TOS. Improving some not really good solutions, code optimization. + adding diverse useful features. Giving support for floppy less usage.

Not even trying to compete with some new, and 100x larger OS-es. Just good old 1985 TOS, early GUI concept, what, if we look it better did not change really much - most of it goes in same way with new OS versions too. Surely, not talking about mobile devices Aim is running well good old Atari SW, easier work for creative people, and using some new storage ways, which are now cheaper and much more reliable.

[TheNameOfTheGame]

Looking good. I am interested in a TOS 1.04i OI, but could you make a USA version along with the UK? And I would need a 6-chip version for my old ST; how much would that be?

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Made YT demonstration with US TOS 1.62i :

[TheNameOfTheGame]

Thanks for the video. The speed of the save state function is very fast! That will be very useful. This is a great TOS upgrade!

[ngtwolf]

Made YT demonstration with US TOS 1.62i

 

This looks good. I'm in the process of burning new 1.04 roms to my 520STFM since a couple of the TOS chips went bad (leave your childhood ST in storage for 25+ years and everything goes to hell..haha). Would be good if you eventually offer an option to burn our own chips since I don't really need to buy rom chips or shipping across the world.

Edited January 31, 2019 by ngtwolf

[ParanoidLittleMan]

 

This looks good. I'm in the process of burning new 1.04 roms to my 520STFM since a couple of the TOS chips went bad (leave your childhood ST in storage for 25+ years and everything goes to hell..haha). Would be good if you eventually offer an option to burn our own chips since I don't really need to buy rom chips or shipping across the world.

On page about it says: "Sending TOS image files is possible too, but that needs talk via e-mail." . So yes, it is possible, and I already sent/sold that way to some people.

The price is 15 Euros then, for single version. Who wants more of it may get it cheaper per piece.

Currently adding integrated hard disk driver - for start UltraSatan and basic ACSI versions - that will make possible work with 0 extra RAM usage of driver - useful especially for 512 KB machines.

And I really need to stop now with adding more stuff

[David Hefner]

On page about it says: "Sending TOS image files is possible too, but that needs talk via e-mail." . So yes, it is possible, and I already sent/sold that way to some people.

The price is 15 Euros then, for single version. Who wants more of it may get it cheaper per piece.

Currently adding integrated hard disk driver - for start UltraSatan and basic ACSI versions - that will make possible work with 0 extra RAM usage of driver - useful especially for 512 KB machines.

And I really need to stop now with adding more stuff

 

Is that integrated hard disk driver for the US and ACSI by chance in the one you're configuring for me? I don't think that was an option when we talked about it.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

 

Is that integrated hard disk driver for the US and ACSI by chance in the one you're configuring for me? I don't think that was an option when we talked about it.

It was not option then, but I decided to add it in this stage (but is not mandatory, of course) because need to make all those options working well together (virtual floppy, quick boot, floppyless work, statesaves, etc) . Most of it using same low level driver core as Virtual Floppy, and can be done with no long plus code. But all this configuring, programming goes pretty slow because must take care for all possible situations.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Added manual for impr. TOS:

http://atari.8bitchip.info/imprtosmanual.html

Still not complete, working on it ...

[6BQ5]

Wow, I am becoming more and more and more interested in your TOS improvement! I may surrender sooner than I thought!

 

Your guide is very nice. Thank you for putting it together. Can I ask questions and offer ideas?

 

1) Would it be possible to update the start up screen? I know it is purely cosmetic but cosmetics are fun. I would love to see a big Atari Fuji symbol fill the screen upon powering up. No text - just symbol. Low resolution, medium resolution. Doesn't matter. It could look like the graphic you have in your Desktop Info screen shot. That would be super cool! Then screen clears and a real boot menu appears prompting users to enter 1-9, P, N, or I. A small timer, 10 seconds, can count down.

 

2) You mention an integrated hard disk driver. Would your TOS be compatible with HD DRIVER from Uwe Seimet?

 

3) Could some functions be customized to run external program? It could be like Hot Key functgion. For example, perhaps the Format Floppy code could be changed to run an external application like your own FloFor program. You could require users to have a [bootdisk]:\HLPRAPP folder with generic file names. FORMAT.PRG, DISKCOPY.PRG. Then users could download their own programs (or make their own), rename the file to the generic name, and use that. This could help clear space in the ROM for other functions in the future. Personally, the examples I give here are functions I don't use very often so I don't need them sitting in memory consuming valuable space. I understand that this would require users to have some sort of mass storage device like a hard drive or UltraSatan. But ... how many floppy-only users do we have?

 

4) Have you thought about sharing your work on something like Github?

 

Thanks for your great work!

[TheNameOfTheGame]

Thanks to Peter I received the image files and have burned my new TOSi ROMS.

 

 

No problem booting up and I like the boot screen:

 

 

And it works with my VoFa adapter in high resolution:

 

 

Looking forward to trying some of the advanced features.

 

Nice work by a great Atarian!

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Wow, I am becoming more and more and more interested in your TOS improvement! I may surrender sooner than I thought!

 

Your guide is very nice. Thank you for putting it together. Can I ask questions and offer ideas?

 

1) Would it be possible to update the start up screen? I know it is purely cosmetic but cosmetics are fun. I would love to see a big Atari Fuji symbol fill the screen upon powering up. No text - just symbol. Low resolution, medium resolution. Doesn't matter. It could look like the graphic you have in your Desktop Info screen shot. That would be super cool! Then screen clears and a real boot menu appears prompting users to enter 1-9, P, N, or I. A small timer, 10 seconds, can count down.

 

2) You mention an integrated hard disk driver. Would your TOS be compatible with HD DRIVER from Uwe Seimet?

 

3) Could some functions be customized to run external program? It could be like Hot Key functgion. For example, perhaps the Format Floppy code could be changed to run an external application like your own FloFor program. You could require users to have a [bootdisk]:\HLPRAPP folder with generic file names. FORMAT.PRG, DISKCOPY.PRG. Then users could download their own programs (or make their own), rename the file to the generic name, and use that. This could help clear space in the ROM for other functions in the future. Personally, the examples I give here are functions I don't use very often so I don't need them sitting in memory consuming valuable space. I understand that this would require users to have some sort of mass storage device like a hard drive or UltraSatan. But ... how many floppy-only users do we have?

 

4) Have you thought about sharing your work on something like Github?

 

Thanks for your great work!

1. Doing some other logo is of course possible. I made couple before this, and were not popular If you can give me exact pic, bitmap, I can convert it for Atari. You meant Fuji logo with Rainbow effect ?

I don't think that we need it at start too Large B/W Fuji logo appears at start of TOS 2.06 . So better something other here

Timer showing remaining time for enterings is good idea. Putting there instructions ... will see what others say.

 

2. Improved TOS is compatible with usual, popular hard disk drivers. Integrated driver is optional, and off by default. And it will work only with DOS partitions - low RAM usage related.

 

3. Your suggestions would change way of using TOS pretty much. Mouse is normal way of Atari ST usage. Well, I added some hotkeys - for statesaves, for Virtual Floppy active image change, but that is because it is better to do it so than with mouse. Performing floppy format is not something what needs simple key action. That's longer operation, and used not much, especially now. Surely, format in TOS (Desktop) is limited, and is better to use some specialized SW for it. But it really takes not much space in TOS. I think that with that dialog together all it is less than 1 KB .

What I did is removing complete floppy code, for people not using floppy at all - that's still experimental, and even that did not free much space - less than 2 KB. More benefit of it is faster boot

 

Free space in TOS ROM: in 1.04 there is not much - less than 1 KB in original. I made some optimizations to make space for new functions, and that gave about 15 KB space. From what big part is already used now.

There is much more in 1.62 - what is basically 1.04 for STE, just little longer, but ROM size is 256 KB instead 192, so there is some 60 KB free in original 1.62 .

In 2.06 there is couple KB free space - it is longer mostly because much more functions in Desktop.

Well, at moment I really don't want even to think what more could add. Already added more than planned. And many things need supporting SW - that's what I need now to finish.

With fast mass storage people can do things comfortable and quick - no need to search for floppy with SW and slow loading . What need is well organized directories on hard disk

[6BQ5]

1. Doing some other logo is of course possible. I made couple before this, and were not popular If you can give me exact pic, bitmap, I can convert it for Atari. You meant Fuji logo with Rainbow effect ?

I don't think that we need it at start too Large B/W Fuji logo appears at start of TOS 2.06 . So better something other here

Timer showing remaining time for enterings is good idea. Putting there instructions ... will see what others say.

 

2. Improved TOS is compatible with usual, popular hard disk drivers. Integrated driver is optional, and off by default. And it will work only with DOS partitions - low RAM usage related.

 

3. Your suggestions would change way of using TOS pretty much. Mouse is normal way of Atari ST usage. Well, I added some hotkeys - for statesaves, for Virtual Floppy active image change, but that is because it is better to do it so than with mouse. Performing floppy format is not something what needs simple key action. That's longer operation, and used not much, especially now. Surely, format in TOS (Desktop) is limited, and is better to use some specialized SW for it. But it really takes not much space in TOS. I think that with that dialog together all it is less than 1 KB .

What I did is removing complete floppy code, for people not using floppy at all - that's still experimental, and even that did not free much space - less than 2 KB. More benefit of it is faster boot

 

Free space in TOS ROM: in 1.04 there is not much - less than 1 KB in original. I made some optimizations to make space for new functions, and that gave about 15 KB space. From what big part is already used now.

There is much more in 1.62 - what is basically 1.04 for STE, just little longer, but ROM size is 256 KB instead 192, so there is some 60 KB free in original 1.62 .

In 2.06 there is couple KB free space - it is longer mostly because much more functions in Desktop.

Well, at moment I really don't want even to think what more could add. Already added more than planned. And many things need supporting SW - that's what I need now to finish.

With fast mass storage people can do things comfortable and quick - no need to search for floppy with SW and slow loading . What need is well organized directories on hard disk

 

1. Yes! Fuji logo, especially with rainbow effect! I always thought that was so cool! Put it on a black background and I'm in heaven! But, I understand some think it is too much 1980's influence. What can I say? I am never outgrew the loud fluorescent colors from my youth.

 

2. All of my questions about integrated vs. non-integrated mass storage drivers come from a question of migrating and upgrades. If I insert new ROMs with my ancient Megafile 30 will my system boot? Then if I enable integrated driver will my system still boot? Once enabled, can I add UltraSatan and use >512MB partitions with my current Megafile 30? Perhaps I should have stated my question more clearly like that upfront.

 

3. Oh! You removed all floppy code? That's a very bold experiment. I still have my floppy drive and even though it is a dinosaur I cannot imagine it being disabled. For me it is integral part of the machine and the user experience. I use floppies with my son and he is amazed at how the ST works. "Where's the hard drive, Papa?" and I hold up a floppy. Going back to to my original thought, I thought removing some TOS code and linking to external applications would free up lots of space and simplify the structure. It sounds like very little is used so you are right - why bother removing it? Another good external helper app would be replacing the Print Screen function. How about it calls a program to save a BMP on the root of the boot drive. I never used that function, even in the 80s and 90s. But, maybe it doesn't save much space too?

 

I'm sure there are enough cool apps out there that can be linked to menu items. I hope you know I'm not asking you to write those apps. Well, some you already did like your floppy format program.

 

I actually use Hot Keys quite a bit. Maybe 50/50 with the mouse. Old habits die hard, I suppose.

[TheNameOfTheGame]

 

1. Yes! Fuji logo, especially with rainbow effect! I always thought that was so cool! Put it on a black background and I'm in heaven! But, I understand some think it is too much 1980's influence. What can I say? I am never outgrew the loud fluorescent colors from my youth.

 

2. All of my questions about integrated vs. non-integrated mass storage drivers come from a question of migrating and upgrades. If I insert new ROMs with my ancient Megafile 30 will my system boot? Then if I enable integrated driver will my system still boot? Once enabled, can I add UltraSatan and use >512MB partitions with my current Megafile 30? Perhaps I should have stated my question more clearly like that upfront. |

 

3. Oh! You removed all floppy code? That's a very bold experiment. I still have my floppy drive and even though it is a dinosaur I cannot imagine it being disabled. For me it is integral part of the machine and the user experience. I use floppies with my son and he is amazed at how the ST works. "Where's the hard drive, Papa?" and I hold up a floppy. Going back to to my original thought, I thought removing some TOS code and linking to external applications would free up lots of space and simplify the structure. It sounds like very little is used so you are right - why bother removing it? Another good external helper app would be replacing the Print Screen function. How about it calls a program to save a BMP on the root of the boot drive. I never used that function, even in the 80s and 90s. But, maybe it doesn't save much space too?

 

I'm sure there are enough cool apps out there that can be linked to menu items. I hope you know I'm not asking you to write those apps. Well, some you already did like your floppy format program.

 

I actually use Hot Keys quite a bit. Maybe 50/50 with the mouse. Old habits die hard, I suppose.

 

I am using 1.04i and the floppy drive works fine. I still use floppies sometimes so this is important to me.

 

Btw, your idea for fluorescent boot colors is hideous.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

6BQ5:

1. I can go on that rainbow effect with big Fuji logo - and that will certainly take more space than complete floppy code in TOS

Black background ? People will think that it is some C64 or PC

 

2. How you think to create >512 MB partitions on Megafile 30, which has 30 MB capacity ?

Your Megafile will boot with new ROMs, because they are compatible with regular hard disk drivers. But better detach that Megafile and use only UltraSatan, There are functions which need plenty of disk space.

What is cheap now.

I

3. Removing floppy code is just in my experimental test version, not in what I distribute currently. I was not clear enough about it. But I guess that it will be of interest, especially for people with TOS switcher.

Myself use floppies barely. Practically only to test when I do dome SW for floppy.

 

I will thinking about how adding couple custom menu items, for starting some special APPs - frequently used APPs - but only for 1.04, 1.62 - not for 2.06/2.14/2.16 .

But it may come some months later.

[6BQ5]

 

Yes, I know I have many strange tastes including fluorescent colors and old mechanical drives.

 

I know my Megafile 30 has a limited life span. It must be over 25 years old. I dont know how many hours it ran and how many are remaining. Certainly the drive is not cost effective to operate when considering something like UltraSatan. The Megafile is like ice cream. One day it will melt and spoil and I will have to move into the 21st century with solid state tech. So, for now I will enjoy it.

 

One day I will have an UltraSatan ... well, maybe like next month. I will need to run both the Megafile and the UltraSatan together to transfer files, make backups, etc.

 

I agree that TOS 2.06 may not need many external helper/utility application functions compared to previous TOS. In TOS 2.06 we have programmable hotkeys F1 - F10 and Extended Control Panel with CPX files. In fact, this where I might have gotten my inspiration for external helper apps, especially in low use cases. Functions like floppy formatting, disk copy, calculator, etc. It feels like TOS should be as clean, small, and simple as possible performing on very basic functions to the user. Yet, leave it open to external helper applications that can run independently. TOS is almost like this already which is why it was and still is a pleasure to use.

 

But, you said that removing some of those functions barely saved any space. So maybe as you said it is better to leave that code alone.

 

Maybe a nice feature would a desktop text clock in the upper right hand corner of the display. Right now I use a program called Menu Info. It has lots of possible display features - more than I need. This would be a nice to have feature.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Made last week.

[6BQ5]

 

That is so cool!

 

I'm sold. Are the ROMs production-ready? How do I order a set?

 

Also, if I had my own EEPROM programmer then would you be able to provide updates and fixes?

[ParanoidLittleMan]

 

That is so cool!

 

I'm sold. Are the ROMs production-ready? How do I order a set?

 

Also, if I had my own EEPROM programmer then would you be able to provide updates and fixes?

I have ready EPROMs in 2 and 6 ROM variants. And even multiple TOS versions at once - TOS switch.

Here will describe how to have 2 TOS versions in some ST, Mega ST with 6 EPROM chips:

Need to use 27512 EPROMs instead 27256 . Pin 1 is by 27512 highest address line A15, and that pin is connected to +5 V in case of 27256 .

Switching active TOS version is by changing voltage on pin 1 - GND or +5V . So, needs only 1 switch, 1 resistor and little soldering.

2 ways possible: bending pins 1 of all 6 EPROMs, so it goes not in socket, connect all together to switch. That's how to do it in early STs without 74LS11 and soldering pads for setting 1M or 256K EPROM usage (2 or 6 chips).

If there are soldering pads then need at pad marked with A16 to desolder both shortcuts, and connecting switch to pad which leads to pins 1 - that saves from bending and connecting all 6 pins.

 

Best you contact me in PM or e-mail (petari@8bitchip.info). Surely, I will provide updates, fixes to people who ordered it.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

This is dual TOS in Mega ST, with 6x 27C512 EPROMs . Connecting W3 middle pad to GND (that's why there is wire) will select other half of EPROMs, so other TOS version. Of course, there goes some switch, accessible from outside normally.

[Lynxpro]

 

1. Yes! Fuji logo, especially with rainbow effect! I always thought that was so cool! Put it on a black background and I'm in heaven! But, I understand some think it is too much 1980's influence. What can I say? I am never outgrew the loud fluorescent colors from my youth.

 

 

 

I'm a big fan of a proportional Atari Fuji logo cycling the rainbow colors. I guess it would remain all-black in monochrome mode. Maybe add a quick YM2149 version of the old Have You Played Atari Today? jingle like the Jaguar had with its start-up.

 

I'm assuming ROM size would have to scale up to 256K or 512K to add GDOS to the mix like how Atari should've done themselves by 1987.

[6BQ5]

I have ready EPROMs in 2 and 6 ROM variants. And even multiple TOS versions at once - TOS switch.

Here will describe how to have 2 TOS versions in some ST, Mega ST with 6 EPROM chips:

Need to use 27512 EPROMs instead 27256 . Pin 1 is by 27512 highest address line A15, and that pin is connected to +5 V in case of 27256 .

Switching active TOS version is by changing voltage on pin 1 - GND or +5V . So, needs only 1 switch, 1 resistor and little soldering.

2 ways possible: bending pins 1 of all 6 EPROMs, so it goes not in socket, connect all together to switch. That's how to do it in early STs without 74LS11 and soldering pads for setting 1M or 256K EPROM usage (2 or 6 chips).

If there are soldering pads then need at pad marked with A16 to desolder both shortcuts, and connecting switch to pad which leads to pins 1 - that saves from bending and connecting all 6 pins.

 

Best you contact me in PM or e-mail (petari@8bitchip.info). Surely, I will provide updates, fixes to people who ordered it.

 

This sounds right. You basically load one TOS version in lower half of ROM and the other TOS version in the upper half of ROM.

 

My STe accepts two ROM devices. I'm sure many others have STe like this. Could you describe the connection to the switch in this case?

 

I was thinking of inserting another socket and bending the address select line pin of this second socket. So, socket in socket. Bending a pin on a EPROM risks breaking it.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

All STEs have 2 32 pin ROM sockets. If want TOS switch need to detach pins 30 - A17 and pin 1 - A18 - case of Flash EPROM like 29F040

In case of using 4 Mbit EPROM like 27C4001.need to detach pins 30 - A17 and 31 - A18 .

That gives 4 TOS versions selectable with 2 switches. 27C2001 has no A18, of course, so need to deal only with pin 30 - A17.

I don't think that bending pins little to outside is dangerous. They will survive at least 10 such bendings. More harm happens when pin is bended not to outside, but to side - like when pulling out EPROM starting at one end - then opposite side pins can bend pretty much. Or worse - when pushing in socket by force not well aligned pins - then can bend a lot.

 

Of course, another socket is not bad idea. Just need to take care to insulate bended pins from lower socket.

 

Switching address lines A17, A18 - connect them to +5V via 1K resistor (will need 2 resistors for 2 lines), and to one pole of switch. Other pole to GND (so don't must be alternate switches) . With it when switch is off address lines will be on +5V, When is on, will be on GND - and that actually selects ROM sections.

[David Hefner]

Here's a writeup on a 4-tos switcher, it appears to be similar to Peter's post above:

 

http://atari4ever.free.fr/hardware/zip/4tos_swc.zip

 

This is the setup I'm going to use on my MegaSTE, I may work on this sometime this weekend, keep a stock 2.06, the 2.16i from Peter, the 1.62i, and I'm not 100% sure what on the last (Emutos maybe?).