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What do we do with Sonic?


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#1 HoshiChiri OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 8, 2019 11:14 PM

So this is where you'd expect a long post about the evolution of Sonic, his highs and lows, and where the series should go- but you'd be wrong! This is where I promote a video by one of my favorite Youtubers, despite his very sporadic postings, Mr. Antony C! Honestly though, the guy has some interesting thoughts in this 35 minute long (?!) rant, so I thought I might share. (You can skip the last 10, it's unrelated content.)
 
Warning for click-happy types: the fellow made his name in the world of Brony. This video barely makes a passing mention of it, but venturing to other links will likely drown you in pastel colored horses.
 

Edited by HoshiChiri, Tue Jan 8, 2019 11:39 PM.


#2 power OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 8, 2019 11:49 PM

Hire Christian Whitehead, make him the head of Sonic Team, leave him and whoever else he wants to hire alone with the IP. Profit?



#3 Newsdee OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jan 9, 2019 3:03 AM

He makes some great points. I loved the ending wink to Majora's Mask.

#4 HoshiChiri OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jan 9, 2019 10:01 AM

Hire Christian Whitehead, make him the head of Sonic Team, leave him and whoever else he wants to hire alone with the IP. Profit?

 

Who? *stops by Google*

 

OH! Yes, that. They should do that.  :-D



#5 derFunkenstein OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jan 9, 2019 11:11 AM

Hire Christian Whitehead, make him the head of Sonic Team, leave him and whoever else he wants to hire alone with the IP. Profit?

 

Yeah, this. I don't think we needed a half hour to get to this point. Sonic Mania is amazing.



#6 Austin OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jan 9, 2019 11:11 PM

Note: I haven't watched the video.

An issue with Sonic is you have the people that grew up on the 2D games, yet there's a whole other generation that was raised on the 3D Adventure-era titles and this is what they expect from the series. I think about this occasionally and I almost feel there's not much of a straight direction Sega can go in with Sonic without completely alienating one side of the fanbase.

Personally speaking, whether a Sonic is 2D or 3D, I just want to see Sega treat it with respect, and this has been a major point of contention over the years. They milk the series with mediocre release after mediocre release (with a few gems sprinkled here and there), as opposed to truly taking their time with the core series like Nintendo does with their mainline Mario games. Contracting passionate fans to craft the future of the core 2D series was a fantastic move and it shows, but I'd like to see this same sort of effort put into the 3D side of things. Quit treating Sonic like he's some kind of Saturday Morning Cartoon, and just make a damn good game for once. One that truly stands the test of time like many of Mario's 3D titles do.

Side note, I busted out the first two Genesis Sonics along with Sonic CD last week, ran through them all and had a lot of fun. They still look, sound and play great and it was awesome to revisit them. Looking forward to doing Sonic 3 and Knuckles soon.

Edited by Austin, Wed Jan 9, 2019 11:12 PM.


#7 spacecadet OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jan 9, 2019 11:53 PM

I don't really know why Sonic has to be 2D when Mario made the transition to 3D a long time ago and has more or less never looked back.

 

Personally, I just think the games need to be good. But we live in a 3D gaming world now and to me it just seems anachronistic to have new Sonic games be in 2D. Not to say they aren't good, but they're obviously trading on nostalgia among those who played the original games, and not trying to push the series forward.

 

As someone who grew up with the original Sonic games, I loved Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, as well as Sonic Rush on the DS (probably the last new 3D game I played). Those games felt like they were moving the series forward. I understand that some other 3D games turned people off, but that doesn't mean there can't be any good 3D Sonic games. Really, the main series should be in 3D at this point, just like Mario is. The whole point of Sonic to begin with was to literally outdo Mario at his own game.



#8 derFunkenstein OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:15 AM

I don't really know why Sonic has to be 2D when Mario made the transition to 3D a long time ago and has more or less never looked back.

 

Personally, I just think the games need to be good. But we live in a 3D gaming world now and to me it just seems anachronistic to have new Sonic games be in 2D. Not to say they aren't good, but they're obviously trading on nostalgia among those who played the original games, and not trying to push the series forward.

 

As someone who grew up with the original Sonic games, I loved Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, as well as Sonic Rush on the DS (probably the last new 3D game I played). Those games felt like they were moving the series forward. I understand that some other 3D games turned people off, but that doesn't mean there can't be any good 3D Sonic games. Really, the main series should be in 3D at this point, just like Mario is. The whole point of Sonic to begin with was to literally outdo Mario at his own game.

 

A 3D game with as much care and love poured into it as Christian Whitehead put into Sonic Mania would be an outstanding and incredibly fun game. The first level of Sonic Adventure on the Dreamcast made me a believer in that. But there's all the extra crap. I JUST GOTTA GO FAST and if a game does that well, then I'll be happy.



#9 godslabrat OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:17 AM

I don't really know why Sonic has to be 2D when Mario made the transition to 3D a long time ago and has more or less never looked back.
 
Personally, I just think the games need to be good. But we live in a 3D gaming world now and to me it just seems anachronistic to have new Sonic games be in 2D. Not to say they aren't good, but they're obviously trading on nostalgia among those who played the original games, and not trying to push the series forward.
 
As someone who grew up with the original Sonic games, I loved Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, as well as Sonic Rush on the DS (probably the last new 3D game I played). Those games felt like they were moving the series forward. I understand that some other 3D games turned people off, but that doesn't mean there can't be any good 3D Sonic games. Really, the main series should be in 3D at this point, just like Mario is. The whole point of Sonic to begin with was to literally outdo Mario at his own game.

While I enjoy the 3D Mario games, I think there's something in the forumula that benefits from strong 2D-only installments. With Mario, I look back all the time, and I think Yoshi's Island, NSMBU and Mario Maker are signs that Nintendo isn't going to leave the 2D world behind. I think a lot of people agree with me.

Sonic, on the other hand, had his best days in 2D and the results of taking him to 3D are mixed at best. I think we've arrived at a point in gaming history where 2D and 3D are simply distinct "styles" rather than a metric of how "advanced" a game is. In the past year alone, we've seen 2D games with the artistry of a symphony, and 3D games with the depth of a Bathroom puddle.

Edited by godslabrat, Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:17 AM.


#10 Flojomojo OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:28 AM

I don't really know why Sonic has to be 2D when Mario made the transition to 3D a long time ago and has more or less never looked back.

 

Personally, I just think the games need to be good. But we live in a 3D gaming world now and to me it just seems anachronistic to have new Sonic games be in 2D. Not to say they aren't good, but they're obviously trading on nostalgia among those who played the original games, and not trying to push the series forward.

 

As someone who grew up with the original Sonic games, I loved Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, as well as Sonic Rush on the DS (probably the last new 3D game I played). Those games felt like they were moving the series forward. I understand that some other 3D games turned people off, but that doesn't mean there can't be any good 3D Sonic games. Really, the main series should be in 3D at this point, just like Mario is. The whole point of Sonic to begin with was to literally outdo Mario at his own game.

 

Because Sonic Adventure and its sequels were stinky-poo: uneven pace, weird choices. I honestly tried to like it. The "running" stages were beautiful, but the exploratory pieces, infinitely less so. His signature move is "speed" and the best way to realize that is with 2D. But you liked it, so we must agree to disagree. 

 

Mario is more deliberately paced and has more of a focus on exploration. I'd say there are just as many 2D Mario games as there are in 3D. 

 

They could also retire the character for a while, but unfortunately he's the most iconic thing SEGA owns, by far. 



#11 HoshiChiri OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:07 AM

 

A 3D game with as much care and love poured into it as Christian Whitehead put into Sonic Mania would be an outstanding and incredibly fun game. The first level of Sonic Adventure on the Dreamcast made me a believer in that. But there's all the extra crap. I JUST GOTTA GO FAST and if a game does that well, then I'll be happy.

 

 

 

Because Sonic Adventure and its sequels were stinky-poo: uneven pace, weird choices. I honestly tried to like it. The "running" stages were beautiful, but the exploratory pieces, infinitely less so. His signature move is "speed" and the best way to realize that is with 2D. But you liked it, so we must agree to disagree. 

 

 

This is where most of my thinking on the whole subject goes... people expect Sonic to go fast, but attempting to put that into 3D creates something that is divisive at best.

 

Having watched Mr. C up there go on about a proper Sandbox game though, it makes me wonder- what if, instead of just pure running speed, we let Sonic do something more akin to parkour? You could keep up the sense of movement without it needing to be in the form of breakneck speed. Couple that with well-designed sandbox world that runs together design elements from Tony Hawk & the new Spiderman game... you could end up with something where you can just merrily send Sonic free running through the world like a blue ping pong ball. Could be fun.

 

Alternately, go full cheese and make a GTA clone starring Shadow. Hijack Eggbots! Blow up buildings! Woodland creatures running for their lives! Make Big the Cat a drunken, slightly psychotic side character! I mean, the absurdity value alone would be worth it.  :grin:



#12 Flojomojo OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:36 AM

I think you just described Jet Set Radio, at least the way I play it. Pity that series isn't more popular, especially the second game. It blows my mind that it's almost 20 years old now. 

 



#13 JBerel OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:45 AM

UgML3LO.jpgbaked.hedgehog2.jpgHedgehog-Sandwich.jpg



#14 godslabrat OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:57 AM

Not a taco. F--

#15 KeeperofLindblum ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:09 PM

Would probably help if Sega gave Sonic more than 1 game of a new "series" before abandoning it and trying another reboot. It's like we get one decent game (Colors, Lost World, Generations), but then they don't try to make a sequel to improve or expand upon it.

 

I also would like to see an attempt at an open 3D world with Sonic kind of running around a fully realized world. I'm no full expert on Sonic lore, but I know Mobius could probably be fleshed out in-game and work fine for a full 3D world.



#16 frankodragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:27 PM

I'm just glad he didn't mention that guy who thinks he's now a woman that created a fuss in a GameStop about Sonic's arms being blue.



#17 JBerel OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:38 PM

First thing to do with Sonic is make him his own controller....

gripone_s3_schalter_300.jpg

Red= Right
Green= Jump

Edited by JBerel, Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:39 PM.


#18 spacecadet OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:15 PM

Sonic, on the other hand, had his best days in 2D and the results of taking him to 3D are mixed at best. I think we've arrived at a point in gaming history where 2D and 3D are simply distinct "styles" rather than a metric of how "advanced" a game is. In the past year alone, we've seen 2D games with the artistry of a symphony, and 3D games with the depth of a Bathroom puddle.

 

2D and 3D are distinct styles, yes, but there's nothing inherent in the Sonic series that means it should be stuck in 2D. And no one is going to convince anybody that, as good as Sonic Mania may have been, it was anywhere near as *popular* as Super Mario Odyssey. 3D games are just what most people want to play. You may not; most do, and Sonic is not some niche series catering to the gaming elite. It was always intended to be Sega's most mass market game series.

 

And Sonic as a series doesn't exist in a vacuum. It was developed specifically as a competitor to Mario, and was used specifically to bludgeon Nintendo over the head with for the first 3 or 4 releases in the series. I think this retreat away from directly confronting Nintendo with what many of us consider a superior mascot is just defeatist. That's especially true to me when I see the exact same stuff in SMO that made Sonic such an appealing alternative to SMB in the first place. I want a game that's like SMO, but faster, cooler, and better looking. And that's exactly what Sonic was created for, and still should be.



#19 Flojomojo OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:25 PM

I want a game that's like SMO, but faster, cooler, and better looking. 

Strong words. Who's gonna build it?



#20 godslabrat OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:01 PM

 
2D and 3D are distinct styles, yes, but there's nothing inherent in the Sonic series that means it should be stuck in 2D. And no one is going to convince anybody that, as good as Sonic Mania may have been, it was anywhere near as *popular* as Super Mario Odyssey. 3D games are just what most people want to play. You may not; most do, and Sonic is not some niche series catering to the gaming elite. It was always intended to be Sega's most mass market game series.
 
And Sonic as a series doesn't exist in a vacuum. It was developed specifically as a competitor to Mario, and was used specifically to bludgeon Nintendo over the head with for the first 3 or 4 releases in the series. I think this retreat away from directly confronting Nintendo with what many of us consider a superior mascot is just defeatist. That's especially true to me when I see the exact same stuff in SMO that made Sonic such an appealing alternative to SMB in the first place. I want a game that's like SMO, but faster, cooler, and better looking. And that's exactly what Sonic was created for, and still should be.


But that isn't what Sonic ended up being. Sonic hasn't been a viable alternative to Mario since Seinfeld was on the air. It's nice to think about what Sonic was "Supposed" to be, but in 2019, what Sonic is, is a franchise with far more bad entries than good. And the ones that are good are 2D.

It's understandable to take a defeatist attitude when you literally have been defeated.

#21 thetick1 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:14 PM

Sonic will always be remembered by me as that racing guy I played at lunch on my Unix workstation.  I never had a Sega console.  Anyway what is cooler than a window with Sonic racing on a vintage 1994 .. $100,000 Unix workstation. 

 

I just never see Sonic being anything more than that... and well I also remember how bad the Sonic cartoon was.  It was just horrible.

 


Edited by thetick1, Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:17 PM.


#22 derFunkenstein OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:11 PM

I just never see Sonic being anything more than that... and well I also remember how bad the Sonic cartoon was.  It was just horrible.

 

My daughter (10 years old) LOVED the 90s Sonic carton. She watched it on Netflix a couple years ago. There's probably a reason they only made on season of it, but she watched it straight through three or four times in one summer.



#23 frankodragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:22 PM

There was that other cartoon of Sonic which started a meme called "PINGAS" and was used with countless YouTube Poops.

 



#24 DragonGrafx-16 ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:28 PM

There was that other cartoon of Sonic which started a meme called "PINGAS" and was used with countless YouTube Poops.

 

lol






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