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A Poll about doing an OutRun for A8...

outRun

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Poll: About doing an OutRun for A8... (56 member(s) have cast votes)

If is more simple and a possible way to have it then would you consider a 'dirty' and 'quicker' version similar to C64 with all wide single colour with no sides own colour (like grass, water) but still gfxs (trees, rocks, signs, buildin...

  1. Yes, is better than having nothing (12 votes [21.43%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.43%

  2. No, it needs to have the sides floor (8 votes [14.29%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.29%

  3. Make it without the sides floor colour by now maybe it'll help for a future version with it (8 votes [14.29%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.29%

  4. Any of the two is good for me (14 votes [25.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

  5. Don't do it because an A8 version will never be good and similar to the arcade version (9 votes [16.07%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.07%

  6. I don't have any opinion (5 votes [8.93%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.93%

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#1 Josť Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:21 AM

What's your opinion about this?

I was thinking and really can't decide...

:?


Edited by Josť Pereira, Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:39 AM.


#2 Gunstar ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:47 AM

I don't exactly understand what you mean, could we get screen shots or some kind of example? Ok, I looked at the C64 version, so I know what it looks like, but still don't know what you mean by "any two."

 

Not having it because it's not just like the arcade is a pretty dumb option for anyone to pick, IMHO, since no 8-bit, or even 16-bit version looks like the arcade anyway. It's all about game play and smooth scrolling, IMHO, as long as it has that, the C64 looking version would be ok with me I guess, but it needs to have smoother animation than the C64 version or it probably wouldn't be worth it, though, since the Atari is faster than a C64, I don't think that should be a problem. I have no doubt the Atari version could be better than the C64 version, in the right programming team's hands...

 

But I'll wait for more clarification before I vote.


Edited by Gunstar, Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:59 AM.


#3 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:04 AM

Yawn. If people started to listen to emkay ;)

Outrun wouldn't be "impossible" , if coders started to use the PMg for the road.
Every visual "detail" could be done using Character Mode then.

#4 R0ger OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:37 PM

I'm just in process of making road effect for intro .. with PMG used for a road .. and it's certainly doable.

But outrun ? Hahaha .. Emkay and his empty words ..



#5 Mclaneinc OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:44 PM

I'd imagine its very do-able BUT there's lots of data for the track side / covering objects to pull in, I'd put it in the Space Harrier league..

 

We have enough track racers that show a track type thing can be done, how close, good knows but I suspect our boffins could think of a way..

 

Who knows, maybe its already in the works, its been an idea for a long time and these devs are devious ;)



#6 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:28 PM

I'm just in process of making road effect for intro .. with PMG used for a road .. and it's certainly doable.
But outrun ? Hahaha .. Emkay and his empty words ..


Yes, I know. If The C64 version was done that way, it would run on the Atari as well.
Creating new code is a different level.

Reminding of Stunt Car Racer. "Not possible" to most of asked people, FANDAL did a very great Job with converting the C64 version in character mode. But it could run even faster in a real "native" version.
It's really a pity that most of the Atari scene is based on people who want to show that the Atari is better than the C64 by chasing the features of the C64, instead of using the Atari with it's own superior features.

Edited by emkay, Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:40 PM.


#7 kiwilove OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:56 PM

Something spectacular? should be done along these lines - a generic road racer that is A8 specific in how it is done - to the coder's advantage and tastes.  Showing how it ought to have been done.

Don't be bogged down by trying to convert an impossible game to hardware which simply cannot do it justice - so do your own thing which the hardware can handle - just make it fast, furious and a joy to play!

 

Harvey



#8 VladR OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:22 PM

What's your opinion about this?

I was thinking and really can't decide...

:?

It's a pretty funny coincidence, just couple days ago I was doing a breakdown of cycles that would be spent on 6502 Test Drive and accidentally steered left to analyze OutRun. For some reason, I thought of you, now I know why  :lol:

 

I realized that for best effect it'd be best to alternate between side props and cars (e.g. don't have them at the same time on screen, as that would require another set of DLIs, removing another ~1,000c from CPU each frame). The trees and foliage should be combined from SW sprites and PMGs - this way you have maximum amount of colors and detail. A tree foliage created from 4 players and 4 missiles could indeed look fantastic.

 

For road, I don't think we can beat 12 DLIs for about ~1,300 cycles (each DLI changing color for the "grass" strip and a "road strip"). On a plus side, regardless of the final framerate, the flipping of the colors (that's what will create the shaded stripes) can always run at 60 fps, and you can't beat that.

 

Since we have 128 colors, we can have nice shading into the distance (for both grass and road), so that's a nice side effect.

 

We would have to have each sprite drawn at several sizes (depending on distance), which is a complication with PMGs, but not impossible (just a lot of work to break down each sprite to SW layer and a PMG layer).

 

I'm definitely not a fan of PMG road and the implications it has on everything else, so I definitely don't advocate going down that road.



#9 Mathy OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:40 PM

Hello guys

 

 - so do your own thing which the hardware can handle - just make it fast, furious and a joy to play!

 

And don't forget to put in a MultiLink/GamelinkII routine, so we don't have to race against the computer but can choose to connect multiple computers together and race against each other.

 

Sincerely

 

Mathy



#10 Marius OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:01 PM

The music KJMANN did for the existing Outrun project was outstanding. Years ago I pointed out that there is one important wrong note in one of the arrangements that is currently in use. Did Sal finally gave his authorisation for using his RMT stuff? And if yes, are the developers known of the wrong note, and do they have the fixed version?



#11 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:19 PM

We would have to have each sprite drawn at several sizes (depending on distance), which is a complication with PMGs, but not impossible (just a lot of work to break down each sprite to SW layer and a PMG layer).
 
I'm definitely not a fan of PMG road and the implications it has on everything else, so I definitely don't advocate going down that road.


That's exactly the point. People without any coding experience claim to do things on the Atari as they wish to do, not as the Atari is capable of... to do.
I'm really standing by, waiting for a running peace of code from your side. But, be sure, my expectations get very low there.
The Atari CANNOT do a lot of details in PMg . But EVERY detail can be done, using the needed graphics mode.
If you have a look at Atari Blast! , you REALLY should keep in mind that Paul Lay is an experienced coder on the Atari, using every trick to have the engine running that well, including a huge memory usage. Just to have the PMg Multiplexer working !
But, copying a character and character clusters to the screen costs almost nothing.


...


On the C64 it is done in several solutions on one screen:
Sprites were used for zooming, because it only needs some address changing for the VICII to read the new data and to put it on the screen (up to 1 frame per vertical blank). Then there is the color ram on the C64, which is veeeeeeryyyyy slow. The characters for the objects get a slow update and do 3 to 8 fps, which needs the "sprites" to be handled slower as well.

The Atari can show a moving "Street" with very low CPU usage, and Chars can be set every frame 4 times.

So the real replay speed of the C64 version of "all" car racing games is between 3-8 fps . The Atari REALLY could do that as well, if not better...

Edited by emkay, Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:23 PM.


#12 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:30 PM

Or in other words: If you chose to to PMg for the Road and Charset modes for the graphics, you don't need any bit calculations for the graphics. How much faster could things be ?

Edited by emkay, Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:30 PM.


#13 Stephen OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:08 PM

Just do it in mode 7 (ANTIC D).  Anything's possible if only people would use mode D!!!



#14 Rybags OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:20 PM

Doable but with plenty of compromises.

 

IMO if a driving game is to be developed, Vroom is the one (or Lotus Esprit Turbo Challenge).


Edited by Rybags, Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:22 PM.


#15 Yautja OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:40 PM

Master Lee said:

 

lee.jpg

 

So, don't hesitate anymore. Just do it, Jose!

 

.: Y :.

 

What's your opinion about this?

I was thinking and really can't decide...

:?



#16 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:20 AM

Just do it in mode 7 (ANTIC D).  Anything's possible if only people would use mode D!!!


I know, why you wrote that, but it's absolutely correct.
An Antic 7 version could run fluent at 12-15 fps, but people want the look of the C64 version. As the C64 version is build up on character movement, why shouldn't the Atari version cheat there as well?
The "fluent" street animation plus blocky character movement ... et voilà ...

#17 VladR OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:25 AM

I'm really standing by, waiting for a running peace of code from your side. But, be sure, my expectations get very low there.

That is absolutely not how I roll, and you should have figured it out a long time ago, my dear :)

 

I'm only going to release a video of something [6502] that is either:

- next-gen or

- previously unseen on Atari 800 or

- runs in a drastically improved framerate

I've spent 3 weeks [in last month] working on 6502 code, so I've enriched my 6502 codebase significantly, but prior to that, I had a 10-month long break from 6502. I'll try to do better this year and spend couple days here&there more regularly ;)

 

I most certainly already have code that fulfills my criteria No 1 and No 2, but I'm not seeking validation here, and most certainly not from somebody like you (no offense).

 

I think we can all agree it's generally better if there's no teaser vid released and then a silence for half a year (or more), right ? I don't want to feel guilty for raising people's hopes up and then getting back to my Jaguar work, which is primary (because it's full-time).



#18 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:22 AM

I personally don't see the point in trying to do a better version of OutRun on the A8 that proves it could of been better than the C64 version, as the C64 version itself is widely known as being pretty dire and rushed out.

Games like OutRun Europe,Turbo Outrun, S.C.I,Powerdrift,Buggy Boy,Turbo Charge and the driving sections from Vendetta all showed what could be done on the C64.

You might as well try and do WEC Le Mans and Chase H.Q on A8 as well,as both were terrible on C64.

As others have said, rather than try and out do the C64, efforts far more better spent on making a great looking,fun to play racing game A8 owners can enjoy.

#19 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:24 AM

Oh and there was another OutRun game on the C64, never released though..

OutRun Europe (not to be confused with Europa):





Neil Coxhead speaks to GTW about work on Outrun Europe…

“Actually, I’ve just looked through your web page again and I brought it back to me in a better light than I had in my mind.

The game was done in a mixture of bitmap mode and character mode which is why the screen update is quite slow, which is what spoils it really. But it enabled the car sprite to be much better looking that it would have been otherwise (not that that makes it a good decision). I was proud of the horizon background 2 dimensional scrolling when going round corners and up/down over hills. The backgrounds were very nicly drawn by Steve Crow in character mode.

The roadside objects and other cars were multiplexed sprites which is why they are thin and but they move very smoothly. And they didn’t sort very well (or at all) with the main car. The tunnels I think worked quite well, it was a bit of trickery to create the effect (combination of changing horizon background and roadside colour I think).

The presentation looked pretty good (apart from the well done screen), probably bitmap mode again. We had an in-car radio with changable tracks which GTA has ripped off since. Music by ex Maniacs Of Noise’s Jeroen Tel was good.

So visually and technically it was not bad, but gameplay wise it was horrible. Outrun Europa was all character mode which was much faster to draw and so the gameplay improved. I also did Sega’s Galaxy Force for Activision around that time, and that had a good character mode based 3D engine which I was proud of.

When I sold the development disks on eBay to Mr Fox a few years ago (instead of chucking them in the bin as I nearly did) I never imagined they would actually end up being reanimated. Perhaps I should have binned them !”

Neil Coxhead.

Edited by Lost Dragon, Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:26 AM.


#20 Irgendwer OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:19 AM

Don't contradict emkay:

 

Reminding of Stunt Car Racer. "Not possible" to most of asked people, FANDAL did a very great Job with converting the C64 version in character mode. But it could run even faster in a real "native" version.

 

 

Wait until emkay contradicts himself:

 

 

But, copying a character and character clusters to the screen costs almost nothing.

 

:rolling:



#21 Mclaneinc OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:02 AM

I'll give you one very good reason to DO Outrun, because no one else has so far done it on the Atari, the music yes, the game, no...

 

I've seen games technically beyond Outrun make it to the Atari and its one of those games that almost every system has bar us...

 

That in itself is reason enough to give it our (devs, I can't code out of a paper bag) best shot....

 

Can't be done....Bah, I don't believe it....Make it Arcade near perfect, maybe not but a mostly flat in to the screen racer with course choices and the odd bit of big on screen stiff....There's got to be a way....If no other comparable systems had got it then I'd agree that the consensus says its obviously too hard to do but its out there in various forms, some good, some not..

 

Hell, Emkay has even done music for it :)    (yes, I just listened to them old man...Sounds good to me but there's a great selection of musical folks who could give us a great arcade version of those classic tunes as well..(Hopefully not too FM synth based, it grinds my ears :) )

 

Edit: Atirra was playing up when uTorrent was running and picked a different tune to emkays, sorry mate, just had a re listen to the right ones and it was some sort of white noise test from 2005 and it sounded er er not so good...Tried the other updated variations from you around the same time and well it sounded like the line from Eric Morecambe, (google him if you don't know Morecambe and Wise) where talks to Andre Previn re piano playing, "I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order.."

 

:)


Edited by Mclaneinc, Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:13 AM.


#22 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:43 AM

Don't contradict emkay:
 
 
 
Wait until emkay contradicts himself:
 
 
 
:rolling:



Irgendwer tried to quote something

 

:dunce:



#23 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:20 AM

Don't contradict emkay:

 

emkay, on 11 Jan 2019 - 3:28 PM, said:snapback.png

Reminding of Stunt Car Racer. "Not possible" to most of asked people, FANDAL did a very great Job with converting the C64 version in character mode. But it could run even faster in a real "native" version.

 

 

Wait until emkay contradicts himself:

 

 

emkay, on 11 Jan 2019 - 5:19 PM, said:snapback.png

But, copying a character and character clusters to the screen costs almost nothing.

 

:rolling:

Posted Today, 9:43 AM

Irgendwer, on 12 Jan 2019 - 06:19 AM, said:snapback.png

Don't contradict emkay:
 
 
 
Wait until emkay contradicts himself:
 
 
 
:rolling:



Irgendwer tried to quote something

 

:dunce:

 

I can see his quoting just fine... is maybe some of the disconnect when we talk on forums that not everyone sees the same output due to browser or system or phone or something?


Edited by _The Doctor__, Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:20 AM.


#24 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:05 AM

Don't contradict emkay:

...
 
I can see his quoting just fine... is maybe some of the disconnect when we talk on forums that not everyone sees the same output due to browser or system or phone or something?


Useless quotes over useless quotes ;)


What to say?


One is getting rather speechless, if you get things quoted by a "Coder" who don't understand the coding differences ;)

There was no contradiction in my posts, as they were based on different solutions. If someone who "just read the content" was writing that . I'd tried to explain things. But "Irgendwer" is a coder on the Atari.
At the end it explains a lot ...

#25 Irgendwer OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:25 AM

I can see his quoting just fine... is maybe some of the disconnect when we talk on forums that not everyone sees the same output due to browser or system or phone or something?

 

Some people blocked emkay, I wouldn't wonder if he blocked himself too, so that he doesn't have to read what he writes...







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