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New Dragon Ethernet cartridge interest check

DragonCart Dragon Ethernet Internet

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#126 ivop OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:20 PM

Nobody said anything different - apart from you ;-)

 

Well in the end it's not that different. I just didn't think about the PBI ROM window and thought about a way to bootstrap a thin client over a network in just 1-2kB by replacing the international character set or selftest in the OS itself. But if you can bank 16+kB of PBI ROM, you can put all the handlers there and there's no need to bootstrap over TFTP.

 

BTW this thread is about a cartridge and not your PBI/ECI device, so I reckon that's the main reason why I was thinking about a small and "trivial" solution that can be done solely in the OS ROM. Your hardware design is way more versatile and could handle higher level protocols "out of the ROM" ;)

 

Edit: oh, forgot to add that the naming confusion of both new Dragon Carts really has to be resolved. As they are both in no way backwards compatible (hardware-wise) with the original Dragon Cart (like MyIDE, SIDE, etc.. were), I suggest picking a completely different name. Both of you :D


Edited by ivop, Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:27 PM.


#127 Mathy OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:52 PM

Hello Ivo, guys

 

... the naming confusion of both new Dragon Carts really has to be resolved. As they are both in no way backwards compatible (hardware-wise) with the original Dragon Cart (like MyIDE, SIDE, etc.. were), I suggest picking a completely different name. Both of you :D

 

I couldn't agree more.  Please choose a different name for both devices, using the same name for two different things is confusing, as we are already experiencing.

 

Sincerely

 

Mathy



#128 danwinslow ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:47 PM

been trying to follow these threads....are there really 2 sets of people developing DragonCart II or whatever....? I thought it was just two threads by the same folks. That seems a bit much. I don't care about one of them being DC II, but not both, that's just silly. And the 'dragon' part anyway came from the Dragon IP chipset that was in our cart, seems these folks are talking about the wxxxx boards from WizNet, which are totally different implementations. I'm glad to see interest in this topic again, I think it's a very interesting development but two things named DragonCart II we don't need. Maybe NetWiz or AtariWiz or something.

 

Anyway it's a good chip, and it will be interesting to see what happens. I also prefer a PBI/ECI device but a cart would be OK especially if it has a pass-through.



#129 Gandor OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:44 PM

Interested in one cart



#130 ol.sc OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:19 AM

been trying to follow these threads....are there really 2 sets of people developing DragonCart II or whatever....? I thought it was just two threads by the same folks. That seems a bit much.

 

So you want one of the two projects to stop? Which one?

 

I don't care about one of them being DC II, but not both, that's just silly. And the 'dragon' part anyway came from the Dragon IP chipset that was in our cart,

 

At least I do certainly know where the name came from. But with the artwork done on the shell of the original Dragon Cart this was already "abstracted away". So at least to me 'Dragon' has by now nothing to do anymore with the hardware used.

 

I always felt that puppetmark didn't want to earn money, own the market or whatever. There are design files on the website inviting others to continue where he left off. My idea was to honor that attitude by carrying on with the name. I asked him before doing so. So much for the background.

 

However, I understand that at the point we decided to go for a PBI/ECI device the name "Dragon Cart" wasn't exactly great anymore. But I still wanted to keep it for the reasons given above. By the time I noticed that there's another Ethernet project actually being a cart and - as far as I can tell - not having come up with any own name so far I of course knew it would cause confusion.

 

So maybe it would be nice to get together. But I don't see the "other" producer represented here. Maybe he has a totally different naming idea. May he will decide to migrate from a cart to a PBI/ECI too. We don't know.

 

And this brings me to an even more general aspect:

 

Why is there no communication? Is it uncool, boring, old-school to talk to each other? I mean, from the translation of the http://www.atari.org.pl/thread I get that the decision for the W5100 was driven by the fact that there's W5100 support in Contiki and/or IP65. I've implemented that code. If I would have been him I'd contacted me long ago asking about adding "official" support for his upcoming device in my code. What will happen instead? Let me tell you:

 

Users of 8bit-Slick will complain that the game isn't working with their nice new gadget. 8bit-Dude contacts me asking me to support it. I can't deny it because I like his work and want him to be successful. So I look up "somewhere" how the W5100 is mapped and implement "something". Me catching up with fulfilling expectations. Me the stupid guy nobody needs to talk to as I'll do whatever needs to be done anyhow? Do you have an idea how demotivated (aka fed up) I'm playing this game?

 

Oliver



#131 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:39 AM

I posted some name ideas in one of the threads, but if it's all the same...

 

the W5100 based cart might aptly use a name along the lines of...

 

Wiznet Cart. or some other play on the chipset or manufacturer name...

 

gave alternative names for the eci/pbi device as well...


Edited by _The Doctor__, Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:40 AM.


#132 Gunstar ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:54 AM

been trying to follow these threads....are there really 2 sets of people developing DragonCart II or whatever....? I thought it was just two threads by the same folks. That seems a bit much. I don't care about one of them being DC II, but not both, that's just silly. And the 'dragon' part anyway came from the Dragon IP chipset that was in our cart, seems these folks are talking about the wxxxx boards from WizNet, which are totally different implementations. I'm glad to see interest in this topic again, I think it's a very interesting development but two things named DragonCart II we don't need. Maybe NetWiz or AtariWiz or something.

 

Anyway it's a good chip, and it will be interesting to see what happens. I also prefer a PBI/ECI device but a cart would be OK especially if it has a pass-through.

While I also prefer a PBI/ECI based solution, and agree they should not both be named the same thing, I do want to see the one in this thread continue as a cartridge version so we don't still have two essentially identical devices with different names both using the PBI/ECI or they might as well be named the same and damn the confusion since in the end either way you end up with a near identical item.

 

We also need a cartridge Ethernet solution for the Atari's without PBI/ECI which includes some 65XE's and XEGM's as well 400/800/1200, and for some people that just because the way they have things set up, a cartridge version is more preferable with several devices already clogging up the PBI/ECI port. Isn't using the PBI/ECI leaving out a good proportion of the user community anyway? So far as a community, we've managed quite nicely with both cartridge and PBI based solutions for new devices so no one has to be left out. I'd like to keep it that way.

 

Yes, it because of the 400/800/1200 that the PBI/ECI got near zero support from Atari historically, but we are getting it all now, and why not continue to allow the non-PBI/ECI users a cartridge solution if it is possible. Atari and others back in the day should have had multiple solutions for different machines too; fine, make an XEP80 tha works through the joystick port, but make a PBI/ECI version too, with more/better features for those with the ports too? PBi/ECI based PR:Connection anyone? Or cartridge/controller port based MIO, maybe not as good or versatile as a PBI/ECI one, but it better than nothing isn't it? Parallel printer interfaces are about the only device that versions were made using every I/O port possible on the A8 line...there were cartridge based legacy printer adapters too weren't there? Well, even if there weren't, there is now with Atarimax/Abbuc USB cartridge interface...

 

At first I was a bit put-off when I had just put myself on the interest list for 1 cartridge here, and then this PBI version pops up and in my case, for my main machine, PBI would be better. But after pondering it for a bit, I decided I want one of each, one for my PBI upgraded 1200XL and one to use with my no-PBI 1200XL and possibly the 800. (my 800 is already modded so it stays on with the cartridge door open)

 

I also do think, regardless of PBI/ECI or cartridge solution, even SIO, that the devices should have pass-through ports.


Edited by Gunstar, Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:23 AM.


#133 chouimat OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:17 AM

Hi, I'm interested in 2 carts



#134 ZuluGula ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:13 PM

I started this thread to motivate one person to work. I didn't anticipate that I will motivate someone else. I was unaware of another project being developed currently at the same time (as anyone on atari.area forum). This project started about 13 months ago with someone asking basically for a rerun of original Dragon Cart. The conversation turned quickly in the discussion about designing an improved Ethernet cartridge for Atari. Today, I spoke briefly on a phone with Duddie about the current status of his work. He told me that he made two prototype cartridges, which went to atar.area users: Draco030 and grzybson, who are working on a software (new and conversions of existing programs). This prototype is different from planned production version, which supposes to have a pass thru cartridge port and Ethernet port on a side. The side Ethernet connection and available cartridge cases might become problematic for 800/400 and 1200XL users. Please understand that those computers are not very popular and widely available in Poland, which may make testing difficult. He said that he will continue his work, despite of another similar existing project.

 

Oliver, do you have any working prototype? How about working software? Can You share with us? 

If I understand correctly, your plan is to make a dedicated board for PBI and another for ECI computers. Or you will have one universal device for most XL and XE computers?



#135 Philsan OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:36 PM

Oliver is Contiki OS for 6502 based computers author.

Therefore he is a key person.

 

Regarding Dragon Cart II (PBI and ECI device), I think all informations are in these two posts:

 

Hardware:

http://atariage.com/...dragon-cart-ii/

 

Software:

http://atariage.com/...t-ii/?p=4203077



#136 davidcalgary29 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:33 PM

Hello Ivo, guys

 

 

I couldn't agree more.  Please choose a different name for both devices, using the same name for two different things is confusing, as we are already experiencing.

 

Sincerely

 

Mathy

 

Or keep the same name...but have one in Polish and one in English. Problem solved! :)



#137 Mathy OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:07 PM

Hallo David

 

 

Or keep the same name...but have one in Polish and one in English. Problem solved! :)

 

According to Google Translate, the Polish word for Dragon is Smok...

 

It might be a better idea to use the name of a famous Dragon.  Like "Falkor" or "Saphira".

 

Sincerely

 

Mathy



#138 leech OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:53 PM

Hallo David
 

 
According to Google Translate, the Polish word for Dragon is Smok...
 
It might be a better idea to use the name of a famous Dragon.  Like "Falkor" or "Saphira".
 
Sincerely
 
Mathy


Or Smaug of course.

#139 davidcalgary29 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:58 PM

Or Smaug of course.


Great idea, but you know the IP lawyers will be all over that one...

“Smok” will be fine, as long as I can get the proper Polish pronouciation. :)

#140 ZuluGula ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:00 PM

Dragonet in English which means Smoczek in Polish which also means this:

smoczek-dla-dziecka.jpg

Edited by ZuluGula, Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:00 PM.


#141 mono OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:03 PM

Smoczek in Polish is of course a child of Smok (mature/adult dragon) too :)


Edited by mono, Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:04 PM.


#142 ol.sc OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:53 AM

@ZuluGula: First of all thanks for you detailed posting !

 

I started this thread to motivate one person to work. I didn't anticipate that I will motivate someone else.

 

If "someone else" refers to Glenn and me then this isn't the case. We started our project totally independently.

 

This project started about 13 months ago with someone asking basically for a rerun of original Dragon Cart. The conversation turned quickly in the discussion about designing an improved Ethernet cartridge for Atari.

 
The idea of Glenn's and my project goes back to mid 2015 - see: http://atariage.com/...e-wiznet-w5100/
 

Today, I spoke briefly on a phone with Duddie about the current status of his work. He told me that he made two prototype cartridges, which went to atar.area users: Draco030 and grzybson, who are working on a software (new and conversions of existing programs).

 

Do you happen to know if "existing programs" refers to anything I mention in http://atariage.com/...t-ii/?p=4203077 ?

 

This prototype is different from planned production version, which supposes to have a pass thru cartridge port and Ethernet port on a side. The side Ethernet connection and available cartridge cases might become problematic for 800/400 and 1200XL users. Please understand that those computers are not very popular and widely available in Poland, which may make testing difficult. He said that he will continue his work, despite of another similar existing project.

 
Thanks for providing this relevant information here :-)
 
So it seems we can put on record that:
 
* Duddie's project stays a cart device (about to change into a pass through cart).
* Glenn's and my project is a set of two pass through devices, one PBI, one ECI.
* Both projects are supposed to be continued regardless of the other existing.
 

Oliver, do you have any working prototype?

 

Nope.

 

How about working software? Can You share with us?

 

What do you consider "working software"? Working on the Atari? About all my software works on the Atari. Working with the W510? All my software works with the W5100. Working with Duddie's prototype? Surely not without knowledge, how/where the W5100 is mapped. I asked you about that 4 days ago without any response - see: http://atariage.com/...i/#entry4203122

 

What do you refer to with "share with us"? All my software is open source.

 

Conclusion from my POV:

 

The Atari community can be happy to very likely be able to choose from three Ethernet devices soon:

* Pass through cart

* Pass through PBI

* Pass through ECI

 

All three device use the same W5100 Ethernet chip. This asks of course for software interoperability. I'm willing to commit to support with my software all three devices if the same commitment comes from the people coding primarily for the cart.

 

I presume that the cart maps the four W5100 registers to four successive addresses in the $D5 page. I presume that those addresses are fixed as it is supposed to be hard enough in the first place to find four addresses providing a high compatibility with carts plugged into the pass through port.

 

The PBI and ECI devices will have DIP switches to select the PBI device ID. Being activated by writing that device ID to $D1FF they will map the four W5100 registers to $D1F0-$D1F3 (at least until we learn that these addresses are a bad idea for some reason). I guess the coders in question know that they should set $0248 just before setting $D1FF.

 

So the software needs to know the PBI device ID to access the PBI and ECI devices. We could even go so far to agree on a common way to tell it so the user doesn't need to to it for every software again. E.g. I could see a file named W5100.CFG. It would contain just a single byte. This byte would be either binary $0-$8 or ATASCII '0'-'8'. $0 / '0' would mean the cart while $1-$8 / '1'-'8' would mean the PBI device ID.

 

Furthermore I'd like to point to https://github.com/a...0-Shared-Access

 

All my software follows the convention for "the program". If the programs primarily written for the cart would follow that convention too then it would become possible to create a RAM-based OS-driver/handler that e.g. provides access to a network drive by following the convention for "the system" - and have that driver/handler use the W5100 simultaneously to the the program using the W5100. On the Apple II I demoed a HTTP download program saving the data to a file - and that file being located on a network drive. The W5100 serves both the HTTP download program as well as the network drive handler.

 

I hope you agree that there's great potential in cooperstion here...



#143 ol.sc OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:00 AM

Given that we now know that Duddie's device is supposed to stay a cart device it's obviously too confusing to name the two non-cart devices "Dragon Cart II" ;-) I'll provide the new name for the PBI/ECI devices in the respective thread.

 

Regarding Duddie's cart I'd personally ask to give it some name that's different from just "Dragon Cart" in one way or another in order to allow e.g. configuration programs to clearly differentiate between the original Dragon Cart and the new cart without having to resort to something like "Dragon Cart (2019)" or alike.



#144 ol.sc OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:22 AM

Oops, I forgot one aspect about the software: In the lack of great alternatives programs tend to set the Ethernet MAC to just some fixed value. All my programs do so. I suggest to use the same fixed value for all programs following that approach. All my programs use

00:08:DC:11:11:11

with the first three bytes being the OUI of WIZnet. Using the same addr avoids unnecessary duplicates in the DHCP server database and in general simplifies things for users.

Regards, Oliver

PS: I'm fully aware of the downsides of fixed MAC addrs. No need to discuss them here.

#145 code_blazer OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 1, 2019 3:57 PM

1. davidcalgary29 - 1 cart
2. xrbrevin - 1 cart
3. skriegel - 2 carts
4. Marius - 2 carts
5. brenski - 1 cart
6. AtariSociety - 1 cart
7. Mathy - 2 carts
8. Haightc - 1 cart
9. Markk - 1 cart
10. Sleepy - 2 carts
11. Nezgar - 1 cart
12. Gunstar - 1 cart
13. Chaosfaktor - 1 cart
14. Wadeford - 1 cart
15. sanny - 1 cart
16. DNA128k - 1 cart
17. Senor Rossie - 3 carts
18. KlasO - 2 carts
19. NML32 - 1 cart
20. CharlieChaplin - 1 cart.
21. slx - 1 cart
22. David_P - 1 cart
23. Rainier - 1 cart
24. AtariPortal - 2 carts
25. patjomki - 1 cart
26. Allan - 1 cart
27. Toddtmw 1 cart
28. TheNameOfTheGame 1 cart
29. adam242 1 cart
30. Dan Winslow - 2 carts
31. Jinroh - 1 Cart
32. Philsan - 1 Cart
33. Lastic   - 1 Cart
34. invisible kid - 1 cart
35. gozar- 1 Cart
36. pixelmischief - 1 cart
37. BigBen  -  1 cart
38. Soulbuster 1 Cart
39. Ransom - 1 cart
40. TemplarXB - 1 cart
41. tuf - 1 cart
42. mariusz - 1 cart
43. leech - 1 cart
44. Firedawg - 1 cart
45. mani - 2 carts

46. code_blazer - 2 carts

 



#146 Defender II OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 2, 2019 11:48 PM

1. davidcalgary29 - 1 cart
2. xrbrevin - 1 cart
3. skriegel - 2 carts
4. Marius - 2 carts
5. brenski - 1 cart
6. AtariSociety - 1 cart
7. Mathy - 2 carts
8. Haightc - 1 cart
9. Markk - 1 cart
10. Sleepy - 2 carts
11. Nezgar - 1 cart
12. Gunstar - 1 cart
13. Chaosfaktor - 1 cart
14. Wadeford - 1 cart
15. sanny - 1 cart
16. DNA128k - 1 cart
17. Senor Rossie - 3 carts
18. KlasO - 2 carts
19. NML32 - 1 cart
20. CharlieChaplin - 1 cart.
21. slx - 1 cart
22. David_P - 1 cart
23. Rainier - 1 cart
24. AtariPortal - 2 carts
25. patjomki - 1 cart
26. Allan - 1 cart
27. Toddtmw 1 cart
28. TheNameOfTheGame 1 cart
29. adam242 1 cart
30. Dan Winslow - 2 carts
31. Jinroh - 1 Cart
32. Philsan - 1 Cart
33. Lastic   - 1 Cart
34. invisible kid - 1 cart
35. gozar- 1 Cart
36. pixelmischief - 1 cart
37. BigBen  -  1 cart
38. Soulbuster 1 Cart
39. Ransom - 1 cart
40. TemplarXB - 1 cart
41. tuf - 1 cart
42. mariusz - 1 cart
43. leech - 1 cart
44. Firedawg - 1 cart
45. mani - 2 carts

46. code_blazer - 2 carts

46. Defender II - 2 carts


Edited by Defender II, Sat Feb 2, 2019 11:48 PM.


#147 atari frank OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Feb 3, 2019 9:22 AM

So will this cart alow me to telnet to Atari bbs via cat5 e patch cord into router using 800xl? Will bob term or ice t software work doing this? looking to get to bbs using real Atari hardware,there are no dial up Atari bbs to call like when I was a kid. Thx for your support.



#148 ol.sc OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Feb 3, 2019 10:30 AM

So with one week since my posts http://atariage.com/...heck/?p=4206370, http://atariage.com/...heck/?p=4206372 and  http://atariage.com/...heck/?p=4206458 without any reaction whatsoever I see that I'm asked to come to the conclusion that no coordination and/or collaboration in order to foster software interoperability are wanted.

 

So I'm doing as I'm asked for: My upcoming releases will only support the Dracarys. Thanks for clarifying this before I actually invested effort to do otherwise ;-))



#149 flashjazzcat ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Feb 3, 2019 12:53 PM

Just give the hardware to someone who knows the A8 and isn't intent on making the hardware work in some absurd proprietary manner. I'm not entirely sure what question was being posed in the referenced posts, or to whom.

#150 ol.sc OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Feb 3, 2019 1:54 PM

Just give the hardware to someone who knows the A8 and isn't intent on making the hardware work in some absurd proprietary manner.

 

I don't know if it makes any sense to talk about technical details with you. Just trying...

 

If you have one device requiring to be selected via $D1FF and being addressed via page $D1 and have another device "just" being addressed via page $D5 (?) than no software will out of the box work with both devices, will it? I certainly don't see an "absurd proprietary manner" in that.

 

Apart from that I don't think your advice will work. E.g. several persons have shown interest in using an Ethernet device for playing http://8bit-slicks.com/- and I don't see if giving any hardware to "someone who knows the A8" will make that game automagically work with that hardware.

 

But maybe I'm wrong - after all it's not that hard to grab my open source software and change it to work with another device. That's the difference between my software and other ;-)

 

I'm not entirely sure what question was being posed in the referenced posts, or to whom.

 

Reading the posts helps ;-)







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