Unreleased Jaguar Games.

[Lost Dragon]

It was hard to ground T.H.G.M claim that Doom II was rumoured as a Jaguar Duo exclusive as he made no attempt to name the source or sources of the claim for his viewers,just presented it as speculation.

 

A viewer asked for the source in the comments section after the video went up and that question has remained unanswered ever since.

 

Whilst it's straight forward enough to find quotes from I.D saying Jaguar Doom II was under consideration (they would monitor Jag Doom sales), they would not be doing any more ports of Doom 2 themselves as focus was now on PC Quake and it was unlikely Doom II would be coming to Jaguar..for the life of me i cannot seem to find any UK magazine at least, speculating it'd head up the launch of the Jaguar Duo and be a cartridge and CD title.

 

At least when asking,the person putting the question of Jaguar Doom II to I.D had the common decency to quote the source of the claim.

 

 

 

These Lost Console videos that seem all the rage at present on YT from a number of channels, seem high on speculation and low on actual detail and are little more than a collection of magazine clippings.

 

Little effort made to try and contact anyone from the R+D departments of the company involved.

 

 

That might be deep enough for the target audience though as i see a lot of comments about how well these videos have been researched :-))

 

 

It's becoming click bait..

 

 

The untold story of...(erm your using magazine clippings from the time,ergo the story was being reported, even if it was at that point just pure speculation),The #### console you never knew existed (insert unofficial non western clone here), The amazing ##### arcade hardware that never was...(that's because it was only a patent).

 

There seems to be a run on trying to get milage out of the most obscure hardware suggestions,failed projects and hardware the Eastern Block etc saw that the Western world never did.

Edited February 14, 2019 by Lost Dragon

[Lost Dragon]

At the rate YT channels are pumping out these unreleased or obscure consoles/coin ops you never heard of...videos, it's only a matter of time before someone does a 10 minute video on the Codemasters console.

 

Over 9 minutes detailing back story of Codemasters and then 30 seconds explaining they once thought about doing their own console, The Game Genie Engineering team came up with several design concepts, but Codemasters abandoned any such ideas when it became apparent the sheer level of resources required to enter the console market.

 

I'm being cynical, but given how wafer thin some of the content covered on YT of late has been..this could happen :-))

[Lost Dragon]

@Jenovi:Hopefully the damn thing sent (it was on my PS3 HDD), but i have just emailed over (fingers crossed), the Imagitec Design snippet from Atari Entertainment Magazine.

 

It has a very brief Q+A with their P.R Guru..codenamed Piglet..

 

A few B+W screens of Freelancer 2120..In Game stuff looks very high res,so i would assume taken from the PC version running on Argonauts BRender software.

 

Piglet also talks of Imagitec working on a Space Strategy game,very different to anything ever done before, it being in early development stages.

 

It doesn't sound like Space Junk..

 

It's not even confirmed for the Jaguar.

 

It might,might not be this mythical Cyber Knights game Martin Hooley has claimed was planned for Jaguar.

 

It's typical Imagitec Design..start hype for yet another project whilst giving no details and at a time people were still waiting for the earlier titles they had hyped up.

 

|-O

[Lost Dragon]

Shaun Mcclure has kindly offered his views on what that space strategy game Piglet was talking about might of been:

 

"I vaguely remember them designing a space strategy game based around some table top figures you could get that looked like gigers alien but with snake tails but nothing ever came of it. "

 

Not too big a leap of faith to make the assumption this might well of been Cyber Knights that Hooley mentioned. .

 

Whatever this things working title was, it joins the already hefty list of annouced but never to appear, projects Imagitec have become associated with.

 

No wonder it's so hard to find fresh information on what else they might /might not of been working on.

 

Their Atari platform work alone is a long list of abandoned projects.

 

Shesh.

[Lost Dragon]

Brief snippet from Rebellion:

 

Just so y'all know; Skyhammer is well-nigh finished; as ever, it's in

Atari's hands, not hours, but it ought to be in production, um, real

soon now. And I mean _real_ soon now. (but that's just our opinion, of

course).

 

Plans: like this says (hey, someone got it right for a change), no

plans for anything on the JagCd -- no plans for JagAvPII, blah blah

blah. Said it before, and I'll say it again.

 

-- dan (@ rebellion

[Kalani]

On 1/20/2019 at 6:21 PM, jenovi said:

Just a country boy who can't pronounce Jaguar... Then again, who but the British can?

Americans since the animal is from here.  Jagu wire

[Lost Dragon]

On 1/23/2019 at 7:14 PM, Major Havoc 2049 said:

 

I see where you're coming from. Does AVP2 even reach the status of a "cancelled game", when it was only ever story boarded and never given the go ahead by Atari? I recently watched a video from Rare about Sea of Thieves and they said they had proposals and story boards for like three or four games, before deciding to go ahead and make Sea of Thieves. Are all those other games Rare thought about making now considered cancelled games? I don't think so. But I would consider Donkey Kong Racing a cancelled Rare game, because actual work was done on the game and it was announced by Nintendo.

 

I do remember Atari announced that they were working on Alien vs Predator CD for the Jag CD at E3 in 1995, but just like AVP2, it never made it past the planning stage. So shouldn't AVP CD be considered a cancelled game and included in jenovi's video? Did Atari even announce to the public that they were working on AVP2 for the Jag? Maybe AVP CD could be considered more of a "cancelled game" than AVP2, because at least Atari announced it to the public.

I would say AVP CD is actually more of a "cancelled game" than AVP2 because Rebellion put together a pretty comprehensive "wish list" of features they wanted to include in the game-so we at least get some idea how it would of differed from the existing cartridge version.

 

AVPII actual gameplay details seem a lot thinner on the ground.

 

But both are not true lost games in my personal opinion.

 

It's a crying shame Whittaker has proven to be possibly the most unreliable source in gaming history as we now have no idea if talk of Aliens climbing the walls,  Predator having a net gun weapon, let alone this easter egg version (gets knackered and stops for a fag) and Virtuality having a modified version of AVP for their VR set up, internally, holds even a grain of truth or is just yet more Whittaker fabricated nonsense.

[Lost Dragon]

@Jenovi:emailed you a snippet that might help future lost Jag Game vids..

 

Plus a little extra.

[Lost Dragon]

Just revised your first 2 videos ?

 

Couple of points came to my attention.

 

Atari's Jon Correl was of the mindset Rebellion were unable to deliver Hammerhead/Skyhammer and Legions Of The Undead on time and of a quality standard Atari expected and producer Ted Tahquechi advised cancelling both, so they were unlikely to approach Rebellion for AVP II

 

Rebellions PC ( and at 1 point Saturn and Playstation) AVP was based off the Jaguar AVP "WISH LIST" , Not the Beyond Games design documents for AVP II.

 

 

BC Racers was just merely on a wish list of titles Core Design considered bringing to the Jaguar.

 

Soul Star coders and others have confirmed Soul Star was the only Jaguar title in development and Jeremy Heath-Smith told US Press Jaguar would only get Mega CD conversions.

[Lost Dragon]

Some info for future videos:

 

A second Hand Made Software source has confirmed Rob Nicholsons comment years ago that Akira was NEVER in development by them for the Jaguar.

 

I won't name the source publically as the usual suspects will only waste his valuable time pestering him,  but you know me well enough to know i back up my claims from direct sources.

 

 

Please Do Not be taken in by anything Jim Gregory of Hand Made Software tells you.

 

I learnt a very hard lesson with Jim who rather than detail the money and staff conflicts that blighted HMS from the off, he would rather have everything blamed on Atari.

 

He is not a Credible source,  thankfully many others from HMS have been willing to talk, some publically,  most in private.

[Lost Dragon]

On 1/21/2019 at 1:08 AM, skip said:

Nice video. Very well put together and balanced A couple of things / questions:

 

- Is Aretemis any relation to Power Crystal? PC was going to be on the 3DO M2. They look very similar.

- That 2.5 million preorder in the EU is a figure Ive seen twice recently, and also back in the day. I do find it a bit unbelievable. Are / were there any sources other than Atari?

- Rober(th) Martinez (if that is indeed who you mentioned toward the end) is problematic. Despite his enthusiasm, he doesnt even own a Jag and has caused issues with some people. He is KGRAMR. I will leave it at that.

Recovered Power Crystal Assests if your your interested:

 

https://www.gamesthatwerent.com/2019/10/power-crystal-assets-3do-m2/

[Andrew Rosa]

Oh fuck... Not Power Crystal. *shivers*

[Lost Dragon]

22 hours ago, Andrew Rosa said:

Oh fuck... Not Power Crystal. *shivers*

Hell yes. 

 

And it's only thanks to the kindness of others from the team coming forward,  we learnt the REAL story of how far along the game actually got.

[Lost Dragon]

Great to see a new instalment to your series go up Jenovi:

 

 

 

I agree with comment someone left, that to do Joust in 3D whilst no doubt technically very impressive, you would have to overhaul the basic play mechanics to the point where it simply becomes too far removed from the 2D classic, to really be Joust as we know it.

 

 

I did chuckle at the Dracula comment.

 

No source given, just comment of "I was told" by your viewer, that game would use prerendered graphics similar to Jaguar Highlander and it never got beyond simple slideshow..

 

 

Well for starters without a credited source, claim lacks validity and if the source was Jim Gregory , LMAO.

 

Jim is currently being outted by multiple ex-HMS coders and artists who Jim had create fake static screens and rolling demos of annouced games on multiple formats, just so he had something to give the press and show investors.

 

It's indeed very plausible he had someone create such screens for Dracula, it'd be in keeping with him if he did, but you need a source to go with the claim.

 

 

As for the aspect of Atari cancelling it because HMS had taken on too many projects..

 

Indeed they took on and farmed out certain 16 bit titles in what has been described as some shady buisness dealings by ex-buisness partners of Jims..so again there is a degree of potential plausiblity there, but the next aspect ..that Atari wanted them to focus on key titles....

 

Kasumi Ninja 2?

 

Jack N.Cyber Golf?

 

Your poster doesn't state any.

 

Akira never even progressed beyond a brief consideration, so that can be struck off..sources within HMS and Black Pearl have confirmed this, so the Wikipedia etc entries need updating. 

 

Battlezone 2000 is still unconfirmed.

 

Carl at Songbird might know more on Dracula-Jim Gregory refused to even answer anything on it when I asked him.

 

We've Put the Q to our contacts from HMS and await a reply.

 

But given the staffing and financial conflicts blighting HMS, It's more likely they resulted in the death of planned Jaguar projects than Atari.  

 

Edited October 16, 2019 by Lost Dragon

[Lost Dragon]

The big issues facing getting more information from Hand Made Software staff have been numerous:

 

Jim and Rob totally disagree as to why the solid 3D version of Battlezone 2000 was hidden on the Lynx version.

 

Numerous employees were promised bonus pay and basic wages they never recieved. 

 

Jim has been accused of lying just to get development contracts. .Fabricating material to get milestone payments...

 

No direction given to teams..months and months of development time being wasted with projects going nowhere..

 

Jim messing up everything he was involved in etc.

 

Has blamed Atari for everything rather than admit HMS from the start had money issues, being founded from the ashes of Mr Micro left Jim with debts from that company remaining to be paid, Jim was believed to of been in poor health at various points. ..

 

Handmade Software has been described as a second Tier developer at best by buisness partners of theirs..Jim given a project with promise of more contracts if he performed well on the inital one, but dismal performance saw it and future contracts killed..Jim would apparently rather have history remember the fault being that of others.

 

 

Not everyone wants to talk at length if at all, let alone publically,  about lost HMS titles as there are a lot of old, festering wounds.

 

But for the purposes of your videos, people wanting to help flesh out your research really do need to start naming sources and provide deeper explanations than ..I was told...

 

 

Investors were pulling projects as HMS was delivering nothing of quality or showing signs of real progress and it had nothing to do with having taken on too many projects..

 

 

I've forwarded you some examples , trust you to keep them private but they are intended to back up my claims. 

Edited October 16, 2019 by Lost Dragon

[PlaysWithWolves]

3 hours ago, Lost Dragon said:

I agree with comment someone left, that to do Joust in 3D whilst no doubt technically very impressive, you would have to overhaul the basic play mechanics to the point where it simply becomes too far removed from the 2D classic, to really be Joust as we know it.

 

This was an homage, rather than 100% 3D conversion, but World of Warcraft's Joust quest chain was fun:

 

 

 

[Lost Dragon]

Regarding Dungeon Depths:

 

This was the marketing hype:

 

 

Dungeon Depths by Midnite Software, Inc. Long ago in an ancient,
uncivilized world, man built great castles to close himself off from the
grunts of the earth. And beneath these castles he built miles of dungeons
to imprison you and your repressed minions. Get ready for a medieval
multiple-player role-playing arcade adventure as you battle "surface
dwellers" in an effort to rise up from the clutches of the aristocracy.
With rich, vibrant graphics, this 3D textured underworld epic makes full
use of Jaguar's real-time rendering, advanced 3D texturing and high-speed
animation capabilities.

 

 

Did the apparently complete game engine live upto what was promised?

 

[Lost Dragon]

11 minutes ago, PlaysWithWolves said:

 

This was an homage, rather than 100% 3D conversion, but World of Warcraft's Joust quest chain was fun:

 

 

 

Looks quite playable in third person .

 

So many  aborted attempts to update Joust.

 

Dactyl Joust Jaguar

 

Joust X N64

 

Joust 3D PS2:

 

 

Edited October 16, 2019 by Lost Dragon

[Lost Dragon]

Still nothing back from our HMS sources regarding Jaguar Battlezone 2000 and the more i look elsewhere,  the more confusion there seems to be surroundin it.

 

Sources talk of seeing early static images of Battlezone 2000 being shown and now there was supposedly video footage of it, but no development team is ever mentioned.

 

A lot of sources state as fact that Atari played with the basic Battlezone game mechanics too much, idea being  to avoid having the game looking existing Battlezone inspired games on PC and Console and ended up with something that bore so little resemblance to Battlezone the name was changed to Hover Strike and it became a stand alone title.

 

But there's never any source given to prove this was the case.

 

Another source said Atari had said Battlezone 2000 woukd use heavy texture mapping and have a heavy emphasis on weapons systems.

 

 The AEO video terrain would also be more complex than the original Battlezone ..but again there's no point of reference as to where and when this was said and by whom exactly. 

 

It's been said Atari at one point had both Battlezone 2000 and Hoverstrike listed in the same advert..

 

 

This looks as if it's going to be another Space War 2000...

 

People saying it was canned once Atari saw Battlesphere yet others (Caspain Software) say it was canned once Atari saw Zero 5..

[Zerosquare]

5 hours ago, Lost Dragon said:

People saying it was canned once Atari saw Battlesphere

As far as I know, the source for that statement is one of the authors of Battlesphere, which is known to be "creative" with the truth if it makes him look good. So I would take it with a grain of salt.

[sd32]

9 hours ago, Lost Dragon said:

This looks as if it's going to be another Space War 2000...

People saying it was canned once Atari saw Battlesphere yet others (Caspain Software) say it was canned once Atari saw Zero 5..

 

3 hours ago, Zerosquare said:

As far as I know, the source for that statement is one of the authors of Battlesphere, which is known to be "creative" with the truth if it makes him look good. So I would take it with a grain of salt. 

Yeah, given the narrative so far, i doubt either Battlesphere or Zero 5 looked better than Space War 2000 in the eyes of Atari. Thats given that SW2000 offers fully textured mapped vehicles and the other 2 dont ?. Remember, more texturemapping rules over fluid framerates and decent gameplay.

[Lost Dragon]

10 hours ago, Zerosquare said:

As far as I know, the source for that statement is one of the authors of Battlesphere, which is known to be "creative" with the truth if it makes him look good. So I would take it with a grain of salt.

I've had to keep the Salt Mines open when it comes to Lost Jaguar Games research.

 

Martin Hooley (Imagitec Design), Jim Gregory (HMS), Jane Whittaker (Atari/Rebellion etc) were all found to be serial fabricators of the truth.

 

The Battlesphere so good Atari canned Space War 2000 claim did indeed come from one of the team and i have never seen it independently verified. ..

 

Matthew Gosling of Caspain Software challenged it, saying it was their Zero 5 that saw Space War 2000 canned, but his claims about Zero 5 and Telegames and Atari were scorned by Atari UK'S Darryl Still who gave a very different viewpoint and suggested people speak to the boss of Caspain,  rather than Matthew. ..

 

 

Leonard Tramiel (a source who's Panther claims do not tie in with what likes of Jeff Minter, Guildo H, HMS and others say..) has stated that Battlezone 2000 and Hoverstrike were 2 totally seperate projects by 2 totally seperate teams...

 

Jim Gregory refused to even answer the Q's about Dracula and Battlezone 2000 (but in hindsight that might not of been a bad thing).

 

 

By the time you try and sort the wheat from the ego riddled and history rewritten chaff from individuals you approach,  your still no further forward as to what really happened, in so many cases. 

[+CyranoJ]

The only thing you can be sure of is if Kieren said it, then it's most likely bullshit.

[Lost Dragon]

14 minutes ago, CyranoJ said:

The only thing you can be sure of is if Kieren said it, then it's most likely bullshit.

For once these were not RetroGamer Magazine Jaguar article claims. 

 

Though after THAT Nick Thorpe Jane Whittaker interview any credibility the magazine was clinging onto disappeared like snow before the sun.

 

 

I'd seen Gosling make his claim  Atari/Telegames in an online interview,  it was just copied and pasted for a certain YT 'celb' video script and Still was not happy to hear said claim..

 

The Zero 5 so good Space War was canned claim, Gosling had made in response to the Battlesphere individuals claim and it sounded like an online ego contest in full flow. .

 

Neither party could provide independent verification. 

 

The Hooley. .Whittaker and Gregory revelations have come from multiple sources who worked with them..for them or have had their work taken credit by them.

 

What's come to light does not paint any of them in anything but a poor light.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Lost Dragon

[PeterG]

11 hours ago, sd32 said:

 

Yeah, given the narrative so far, i doubt either Battlesphere or Zero 5 looked better than Space War 2000 in the eyes of Atari. Thats given that SW2000 offers fully textured mapped vehicles and the other 2 dont ?. Remember, more texturemapping rules over fluid framerates and decent gameplay.

Well from what I remember it was the verdict of some focus group testing, so it would not be so much the eyes of Atari but whoever came to play those games.

 

In any case as zero 5 is quite a different game albeit set in space I'd somehow rather think the compared games would be SW2000 and BS as two space shooters with dogfights etc.