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65XE/130XE Cartridge Port Extender - 90 degree


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#26 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:08 PM

@ fjc bingo!

 

I have been using my avg in side mode on the rtime8 in my second cart slot and my super sparta dos x cart with express and avg in the other slot, that's 2 in the back 3 in the front.

the avg in rtime8 on the second slot in side mode is my hard drive fat16 apt fat32..

the super sparta with expres and another avg are in side one, I sometime put an oss language switch cart in place of that avg

 

it works just fine...

 

the one switcher she offers take the entire cart off the bus, which can be a good thing... but being able to choose if the lines are still active but the rom is off also good.

 

I don't know how it's confusing so I will just take a picture.



#27 Dropcheck ONLINE  

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Posted Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:27 PM

One might also use a SIDE cart only for the CF adapter (with the ROM switched off) alongside another cart, which isn't normally possible.

 

Okay..... but the keyword is 'ROM switched off'.  It's not functioning as a true cartridge much like the R8 cartridge at that point.  :)

 

I'm assuming that 'switching the ROM off'  is a feature of the SIDE cart


Edited by Dropcheck, Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:29 PM.


#28 Dropcheck ONLINE  

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Posted Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:38 PM

the one switcher she offers take the entire cart off the bus, which can be a good thing... but being able to choose if the lines are still active but the rom is off also good.
 
I don't know how it's confusing so I will just take a picture.

How exactly do I turn the rom off of some generic cart, but leave some other function of that same cart active?  That kind of 'feature' is an internal specific to the cart, not to the cartridge port



#29 Dropcheck ONLINE  

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Posted Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:11 PM

And just to be simple as possible.

 

Here's a dog simple SingleRACart board.

 

SingleRACart.jpg



#30 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:36 PM

eci 2 connector pbi extender

cartext1.jpg cartex2.jpg cartext3.jpg catext4.jpg


Edited by _The Doctor__, Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:47 PM.


#31 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:55 PM

so you see I have rtime8 with express as my avg car image, I have super spartados with my avg/side drives running, and the mio drives all on the bus all working together perfectly happy...

 

Your two cart ra switcher that you sell could be part of the 2 cart eci/pbi adapter with the added switch I mentioned... that gives fully controllable functionality over all cart types.


Edited by _The Doctor__, Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:18 PM.


#32 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:57 PM

Yes, but 2 cart eci, not one, that makes the simple all purpose inexpensive adapter

The original poster requested a source for a RA cartridge connector.  I am assuming the poster is using a 130XE machine. 

 

Here's a possible option.  It contains a complete RA 130XE Cartridge and ECI port and adds the PBI converter.  If the PBI converter is not needed then it can be left off the design. 

 

ECI2PBIRACart.jpg


Edited by _The Doctor__, Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:01 PM.


#33 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:04 PM

The next step for a premium adapter is the above but with two cart/eci combo and the switch method of your current 2 cart switcher offering but using the switch logic I outlined.

 

1 cart on the other off the bus, both carts on the bus, or special rom disabled but lines on the bus mode.

 

;)


Edited by _The Doctor__, Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:16 PM.


#34 Nezgar OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:28 PM

The original poster requested a source for a RA cartridge connector.  I am assuming the poster is using a 130XE machine. 
 
Here's a possible option.  It contains a complete RA 130XE Cartridge and ECI port and adds the PBI converter.  If the PBI converter is not needed then it can be left off the design. 
 
ECI2PBIRACart.jpg

I'd buy that! Blows me away seeing an idea turned into a visible design like that so quickly these days. Nice work. :)

I personally would prefer one with 2nd cart port for r-time 8, to put SDX and rtime8 in parallel. I guess if someone doesn't want 2 you could use the same PCB but save a few cents and just not attach the second 'optional' connector to through-holes... Why not keep the PBI edge connector? It can be ignored if not used. No extra parts needed. Then I can still connect my MIO :) I guess basically a replica of ICD's product.

Cart only board with no PBI could would be smaller and work without an ECI port like some 65XE I guess though.

Edit: sorry I see doc already mentioned 2 cart ports lol.

Edit2: D'oh and the single cart/non-ECI concept you already did. that's great too. I really need to finish scrolling before I get excited and reply hah



#35 Curt Vendel OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:03 PM

The original poster requested a source for a RA cartridge connector.  I am assuming the poster is using a 130XE machine. 

 

Here's a possible option.  It contains a complete RA 130XE Cartridge and ECI port and adds the PBI converter.  If the PBI converter is not needed then it can be left off the design. 

 

ECI2PBIRACart.jpg

Where do I throw my $$$ at ?   That's nice!



#36 Dropcheck ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:04 AM

The next step for a premium adapter is the above but with two cart/eci combo and the switch method of your current 2 cart switcher offering but using the switch logic I outlined.

 

1 cart on the other off the bus, both carts on the bus, or special rom disabled but lines on the bus mode.

 

;)

 

I can physically put two cartridge ports on a board with a PBI/130XE bus pass thru and implement four way switching. 

 

Switch Position

    1                      Cart A   ON     Cart B   OFF     BUS  ON    (Possible conflict depending on what's on the bus)

    2                      Cart A   OFF   Cart B   ON       BUS  ON    (Possible conflict depending on what's on the bus)

    3                      Cart A   ON     Cart B   ON       BUS  ON     (Guaranteed conflict with all but a few special configurations and a support nightmare)

    4                      Cart A   OFF   Cart B   OFF     BUS  ON     (Essentially just a pass thru)

 

 

Disabling part of any cart function is a feature of the cart, not of the cartridge port.  I won't even attempt that rats nest. 

 

I don't think there's any way to turn the whole BUS on/off.  Not that is 100% effective with all bus devices.  Some are self powered, so switching +5V off on the bus doesn't work with them.  Some simply use the BUS as a convenient way to access computer signals, they really don't conform to the PBI specifications so 'control' lines are not used.  So it comes down to individual signals can be turn on/off, not the whole BUS short of physically disconnecting the BUS device.   That means a long row of dip switches to turn on/off individual signals.  Not simple anymore or cheap. 

 

There's nothing wrong with the desire.  ;-)   But I suspect what you really want is a single cartridge that has all the features you desire in a infinite configurable on screen menu with the ability to turn the whole cartridge on/off with an external button so you don't have to unplug it.   That would be nice......but way beyond what we are discussing here and is an internal cartridge feature set. 



#37 flashjazzcat OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:17 AM

You can control the presence of the external cart ROM via the S4 and S5 chip selects. SDX does exactly this. The build of the 1088XEL U1MB BIOS talked about and available in the beta thread is able to suppress cartridges at $A000-$BFFF by manipulating S5. However, if 'disabling part of any cart function is a feature of the cart, not of the cartridge port', why not leave the switch off entirely and let the user deal with conflicts by simply unplugging stuff.



#38 Dropcheck ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:43 AM

You can control the presence of the external cart ROM via the S4 and S5 chip selects. SDX does exactly this. The build of the 1088XEL U1MB BIOS talked about and available in the beta thread is able to suppress cartridges at $A000-$BFFF by manipulating S5. However, if 'disabling part of any cart function is a feature of the cart, not of the cartridge port', why not leave the switch off entirely and let the user deal with conflicts by simply unplugging stuff.

 

   As I understand The Doctor, he doesn't want to unplug anything he has connected.  He wants to control through a switch on the board which individual cartridge slot is active.  Which can be done by the S4/S5 control lines for each slot. 

 

   But that only controls the slot itself.  Controlling what internal feature set of an individual cartridge is on or off is the cartridge's responsibility not the slot.  So if you stack another generic cartridge on top of the SDX cart, it's the SDX cart responsibility to turn on/off that cart.


Edited by Dropcheck, Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:44 AM.


#39 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:47 AM

as you can see I unplugged nothing, if the switches I mention were present, it would make the task easier, in the configuration I have described and shown, I can even be inside the express cart and press reset, sdx cart will still be there and not be disabled..

 

sure, a person could put anything the want in any slot and cause conflicts, that can happen in an 800 or any computer with a pbi bus device attached, that can happen with something you load via software as well, i doesn't even have to be a pbi or cart device to do that.

 

It wont be a support nightmare, because a little documentation included would prevent that, or a stroll down the forums where lists and threads describe what hasn't worked already. I even think we could put the major popular how to on a sheet attached to the under side of the board, it protects the exposed solder joints and leads and tells what to do.

(CSS did that in some fashion for the floppy board with just their name and the words floppy board) (folks liked that and made their own cheat sheet and attached it to folow suit) no accidental shorts without an expensive case, and instructions all in one place. very nice. cut back on annoying support issues too!

 

edit as it came in while typing---

YES, Lenore has the idea now!

The carts still control what is plugged in to the tops of themselves, as they always have...

the switches allow us to take stuff on or off /all on all off. sounds great. the 5v on off she mentioned wasn't part of my idea, but she had a great idea with that, at I just tried it, it allows resetting a hung device or cartridge that has been disabled and has no software enable program like inidos does for sdx or express control does for express.

 

Nice thought Lenore. :)


Edited by _The Doctor__, Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:57 AM.


#40 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:02 AM

Anyway the dead simple passive two cart - eci/pbi is something to run with right now.

 

The other might be a collaboration with Lenore and tf_hh. I would be willing to test as well as handle phone calls/comms from folks who need help. That would stop the support nightmare. Dare I say even a BBS msg base for support? Since I intend to put something up in the next year anyway, why not?


Edited by _The Doctor__, Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:07 AM.


#41 Curt Vendel OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:02 AM

After seeing the double stack of the doctor setup, which is both super cool and super scary...   maybe it would be better to rethink this out and make a row of 4 cartridge slots both perpendicular to the back of the XE.  This way they wont need to be double or triple stacked, things like the RT8 could just stay installed, SDX, etc and then other cart's installed/removed as needed vs stacking and implement on the board the same method as the SDX carts did for stacking, just on the extender instead of the carts, but this would require a way of controlling the extender by the XE, hmmmmm....



#42 flashjazzcat OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:38 AM

Bear in mind SDX can only manage the chip selects on cartridges plugged directly into its own cartridge pass-thru. So AVG would still need to be stacked on top of SDX.

 

There seems to be a lot of confused and confusing terminology being used to describe relatively simple goals. No-one is suggesting the switches should interfere with or control features intrinsic to a given cartridge. They should take the whole damn cart off the bus as if it had been physically removed (or as near as is possible, since the capacitive mass of the cart PCB will still be present).



#43 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:51 AM

I remember in 199x our stack was a single stack rtime8, spartados x, express!, diamond, miodiags or a language cart....    THIS WAS SCARY, and we built a support the tower.... but fun interesting, and just because you could... :)

 

as soon as possible we got the two cart connector version and kept the stack at 2 or 3 carts per slot. for non intelligent carts switches were added. It was convenient it worked and you didn't have move the computer out from under the hutch to plug/unplug everything all the time...

 

edit in response to incoming post

 

so long as the stack terminates with an active cart, it works just fine, much like a terminating resistor pack for any bus...  issues can arise with any poorly done cart if things are left un terminated and just hanging out.

 

In any event, cart logic, not withstanding, you see my configuration working.... there are no issues, mio passes diagnostics and r/w tests with the full stack, with or without scsi drive attached, I have mio ramdisk/hd, I have avgide, rtime8, avgexpress, spartax. It all works. It all passes, no issues.

 

switching in and out of cartridges is no issue. I don't think people quite get how flexible the Orion/OSS cartridge system is, so I took the second avg out and put the real express in second stack... it all works..

Sparta Dos X in slot 1 with AVGSIDE on top

rtime8 in slot 2 with Express! on top and ANOTHER avg cart on top of that...

 

It all works!

 

The Atari was designed with hot swapping in mind, so a clean switch pcb just makes it easier and more successful to do this sort of thing.

 

I will post a screen shot of changed stack, and car above express activated. the cart scheme is genius in that oss carts designed to work together can share their library. but if you select a cart not of oss design plugged on top, they remove themselves and their libraries as long as the bad guy is active. If you leave the cart that doesn't get along, the oss carts come back on to the bus either by themselves or using a software initialization.

 

Most folks never enjoyed this, I do know fte was hoping to bring out a computer with such abilities built in...It did work, but sadly real life happened and crushed the roll out.


Edited by _The Doctor__, Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:21 AM.


#44 manterola OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:53 AM

It is so cool just to see an idea or question starts rolling and growing like a snow ball and keep getting speed ...   I am sure the final product is going to be great with all this great ideas.  So please, through your ideas in a crystal clear way, be specific. I cannot wait to send my $$$ to get one of these!!!



#45 Dropcheck ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:38 AM

  I'm sorry if it sounds like I don't want to support product I make.  That's not it.   I just don't want to design a guaranteed problem into the product that only a few people will benefit from. 

 

  The Doctor and a few people here might have loads of Atari knowledge or pure spunk enough to experiment on their own to find what works and what doesn't. They understand the limitations. But I'm finding fewer and fewer people RTFM and more and more people just want to push a button,  When it doesn't work they have a tendency to blame the product and not that their usage or false expectation.  It sets up a self reinforcing bad reputation loop about the Atari and specifically my products.  

 

   Don't get me wrong I'm not saying my products are perfect.  Some of them could be improved upon giving more time, money and effort.  :)

 

  This thread started out with an individual wanting a simple RA cartridge board for his/her 130XE.  As so often happens it morphed into a discussion on how complicated can we make a dream product to serve a specific purpose that only a few will use.  :) 

 

   I  am willing to design and offer the simple RA single cartridge and RA single 130XE Cart/ECI boards.  I already have a RA dual cart switcher option available, but it does not allow both slots active at the same time.  Anything else I think needs to be a special custom order.  Because after all you are wanting specific things that may or may not be easy to do to fit your specific needs and quite literally most people won't need or use that feature.   The very definition of a custom order.  :)



#46 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:13 PM

if you want the version most people will use it's the ra eci2pbi with 2 eci/cart ports.

 

I know this because when selling both single and double connector eci2pbi board in the past, we sold the 2 cart connector version 3 to 1....

 

the same should still hold true today.



#47 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:27 PM

to continue from earlier post with real express cart and adding to the tower (how high do you want me to go?)

carthop1.jpg carthp2.jpg carthop3.jpg carthp4.jpg

this ends with me going to sparta 3.2 for non sdx aware carts like msbasic or back to sdx for languages and editors that do...

I know I should have chosen Donkey Kong, how high can you try?


Edited by _The Doctor__, Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:45 PM.


#48 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:32 PM

Because we can hot swap I can also pre select images, avoiding the avg selection menus... but if you press the avg cart reset or image select reset button you can keep selecting car images as normal pressing the menu button on the avg as needed.. ;)

 

this shows how the avg can be substituted in place of regular carts as well as how the originals work, and then how they all work together.

 

if a two cart with switches version were made, you could silk screen right on the board the mode and cart types allowed as well. Had fun showing this, and what we've been doing all these decades...


Edited by _The Doctor__, Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:49 PM.


#49 flashjazzcat OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:55 PM

Obviously a machine equipped with machined sockets and HCT throughout. :D

#50 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:04 PM

@FJC, because we go series and parallel, it balances the capacitance you are concerned with....

remember how capacitance adds and subtracts?

 

the 800XL is more robust than a 130XE when it comes to this stuff... I would love to see a pbi pass thru extra cartridge connector for it. perhaps with a switch... great stuff for MUX and RTC use btw...

 

IMHO the black box shouldn't have covered the extra connector with it's ribbon cable

 

FJC shields are still on the mb since factory on this one...sio caps were where they could be snipped easily at sio connect for HSIO, no other work done on this 130XE, bet your bottom dollar if anything failed to work up to spec- it would get the exact treatment we outlined. :)


Edited by _The Doctor__, Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:21 PM.





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